I’ve told you my opinion repeatedly about Starmer, so there’s little point repeating it.
Little point repeating your opinion?
Oh come come binners, it's unusual for you to be so reticent about expressing your opinions.
And don't sell yourself short, you repeating the same identical narrative over and over and over and over again is hugely entertaining. The well-worn references to sixth-form common rooms, the constant use of terms such as "self-indulgent virtue signalling", the hilarious talk of "magic grandad" and "allotment dweller", the total obsession with Austin Allegros, and your stunning ability to post stills from a 40 year old British comedy film.
So don't you worry about repeating yourself binners, it is after all a thread about Keir Starmer.
Like I said: I fail to see the silent unquestioning reverence to policies written by a man who’s political achievements have been eclipsed by Liz Truss
Well you know the answer to that, don't you?
Of course you do........ he didn't have enough time. It was too early to tell.
That’s why Corbyn got in!
Grandad ‘got in’ because of Ed’s terminally disastrous ‘free leadership vote with every pack of Quavers’ policy, which had Tory’s chortling in absolute disbelief as they signed up in droves to vote for the weird unelectable beardy communist who would repel voters in a style never before witnessed and demolish the Labour Party as a realistic opposition party, never mind a potential government
So let’s not delude ourselves otherwise, shall we?
I remember watching his gormless grin as he accidentally became leader and realised they must have been having one almighty party at Tory Central Office that night. The gift that never stops giving had arrived. A man who’s ‘career’ had been so backbench that - to quote Malcolm Tucker - he was out by the bins
I’ll guarantee you one thing: no political party in the world will ever do anything remotely similar. Nobody is that stupid!
Starmer has a hell of a job of trying to convince a large chunk of the party membership of that though, clearly, who seem to still be stuck in a state of denial
Most of the main detractors on here aren't members atm, whereas you are. Apparently that makes you a red Tory and establishment stooge for trying to get Starmer in.
Little point repeating your opinion?
🤣🤣🤣💪💪💪
So let’s not delude ourselves
.
It’s too early to tell. We live in bizarre and unprecedented times
Apparently that makes you a red Tory and establishment stooge for trying to get Starmer in.
I’m well aware that I shall never be forgiven for my part in stopping Rebecca Long-Bailey ascending to her anointed throne
I wasn't even aware that you played a part in Rebecca Long-Bailey's downfall!
I find your deep relentless hatred of Corbyn quite fascinating.
These days it seems to be triggered by any criticism of Starmer, which presumably reflects your cult-like admiration of him...... how dare they criticise the poor man when he has had so little time to do anything!
The shameless hypocrisy is also quite interesting.
I find your deep relentless hatred of Corbyn quite fascinating.
I don’t know why.
When I said he achieved absolutely nothing, I should have added the caveat
*apart from delivering successive Tory governments, gifting Boris Johnson an enormous majority to do as he pleases, facilitating the hardest of Brexits at every available opportunity and turning the Labour Party into a laughable, second-rate, sixth-form protest group. Being so utterly po-faced and joyless, they even failed to deliver any amusing placards. Unforgivable!
Does that help?
As for a admiration for Starmer, I admire anyone who’s prepared to have a crack at clearing up the absolute car crash that muppet left in his wake as he finally toddled off to the allotment
Does that help?
Well I have never heard you say any of those things before so I guess it probably does.
Any opinions concerning Starmer that you might like to share?
Or are you still worried about repeating yourself?
Edit : Apart from the fact that you admire him of course.
Well if someone pure enough to satisfy the left replaces Starmer
What a load of bollocks. The only thing the left wants is a leader who promises policies in line with labour’s purpose of representing working people and who isn’t embarrassed to stand up for the working class. It’s really not a lot to ask.
It’s really not a lot to ask.
Well it's quite a lot to ask of Starmer, that's for sure. He appears to have done and said very little recently, if anything at all. Certainly the news providers aren't reporting much.
I think the last time Starmer actually announced or said anything was a few weeks ago when he expressed the opinion that Geronimo the Alpaca should be slaughtered. I don't think he has really said anything since his important intervention on that matter.
Perhaps Starmer feels that everything is just tickety-boo in the UK at the moment, and the Tories are doing a grand job governing the country, so no opposition is necessary. No point being contrary just for the sake of it.
Although to be fair binners says "it's still too early". Apparently being in the job for over a year isn't long enough. Labour doing worse in elections than it did under Corbyn means nothing, apparently. A year is a very short time in politics - it's a week that's a long time.
Starmer is probably spending a lot of time thinking. Forensically.
I find your deep relentless hatred of Corbyn quite fascinating.
How could anyone hate someone as dodderingly and comically inept as Corbyn?
The Labour party needs to appeal to more than working people. There are 29 million of them, and many of those economically active people are very much in the Tory demographic. The Labour party needs to appeal to anyone who would benefit from their policies, i.e. the vast majority. That majority needs convincing and someone capable of convincing them to do the convincing. My profile is:
Female
Well educated but not a toff
No Blarite skeletons in cupboard
Under 50
Doesn't speak 1974 trade-union comrade speak
In the Absence of Jo Cox Jess Phillips is the best fit unless someone who knows the party well can educate me.
^^^
That's far too 'metro' for the purists.
What a load of bollocks. The only thing the left wants is a leader who promises policies in line with labour’s purpose of representing working people and who isn’t embarrassed to stand up for the working class. It’s really not a lot to ask.
No it's not
A far harder ask is getting elected as PM with 326+ and doing all that
What a load of bollocks. The only thing the left wants is a leader who promises policies in line with labour’s purpose of representing working people and who isn’t embarrassed to stand up for the working class. It’s really not a lot to ask.
Oh ‘the left’ want that, do they?
Good for them
In case you didn’t notice the ‘working classes’ in the north just voted for a racist, Eton-educated, silver spoon Tory, daily Telegraph journalist and told ‘the lefts’ ‘man of the people’ to **** right off in no uncertain terms, for the second time.
‘The Left’ can think what the hell it likes, but I’ve got more chance of becoming the next pope than it has of governing this country.
It’ll just carry on railing impotently from the sidelines, as it always has, until it decides to engage with reality and not venemously castigate anyone who doesn’t fancy voting for ‘the left’ patronisingly informing them
It knows what’s best for them
This is the elephant in the room. ‘The Left’ has some quaint 1970’s idea of what they believe the ‘working class’ (whatever that is) should want. And they’re simultaneous absolutely bloody furious at those very same people for failing to conform to their lazy stereotypes and get in line and vote for them
What is it with English people and blaming the other of a two party pendulous repetition for everything they are not empowered to provide? then getting amnesia when it turns full circle.
It was the same when the formerly popular Tony Blair was in favour, tories were the useless lost in the wilderness losers...yes that happened and Thatcher left no tory ever able to return, but no one remembers that because it makes them uneasy, then..as is customary with UK voters, it all turns to the polar opposite and they switch places, then we do it all again from the opposite end, thus little changes but the popular party from a choice of two gets to watch the other get the blame while they get away with murder for a bit, and the other must be hated, this is the law that must be observed.
Rather than perpetuate this, why not have a progressive discussion on how you end the empowerment of two parties that were last relevant to their respective populations in 1802.
326+
326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+ 326+
failing to conform to their lazy stereotypes and get in line and vote for them
So in the Brexit thread binners spends all his time sneering at and stereotyping Brexit voters for being thick/racist, yet in this thread he's just an ordinary ruddy down-to-earth northern man who has a real affinity with the working classes and can't stand the way they get patronised by urban intellectuals. Hmmmm...
This goes way further than Brexit.
The most ridiculous irony is that Corbyn was more enthusiastic about Brexit than Farage, but he wouldn’t come out and say so because that would jeopardise the Islington gravy train he’d been riding for 30 years
So he went awol like the spineless shithouse he is
It’s not a binary argument. Though everything is binary in the moronically simplistic leftie world of ‘my enemies enemy is my friend’ and other such sixth form level nonsense
The Labour Party won 3 successive elections without resorting to being racist, but it had a leadership at the time could differentiate its arse from its elbow. And ‘the left’ hated that fact even more than the Tory’s did.
They still do. They’ve still never forgiven Blair for actually winning elections. Didn’t he know that as Labour leader you’re meant to virtue-signal impotently from the sidelines?
I’d like to think that one day ‘the left’ will realise that it will never win power because it endlessly piously and sanctimoniously tells everyone what’s best for them, according to them, and berates them for their lack of moral virtue. Like a shit Taliban
But ‘the left’ doesn’t want to be in power. It’s not remotely interested in the responsibility that goes with that
It’s always happier to be whining and moaning from the cheap seats. As this thread endlessly proves
All the greatest hits, with an extra dose of deranged bitterness and failure to understand your own hypocrisy. 8/10
The Labour party needs to appeal to more than working people. There are 29 million of them, and many of those economically active people are very much in the Tory demographic. The Labour party needs to appeal to anyone who would benefit from their policies, i.e. the vast majority.
Agree. The problem is that getting people who are in a Tory demographic to vote Labour is very difficult. Blair did it but look what the "left" thing of Blair. To get into power in a country with a lot of Tory voters (dare I say Tory Britain) you need things that appeal to those people as well as things that help/appeal to the working classes.
You don't need to go full Tory as some seats will never vote Labour. Where I live the Labour vote in 1997 was 14% compared to a best of 19% in 2017. Even in 1997 the Tory MP still got 50%.
Dreaming about how you are going to come up with revolutionary societal changes and have all the Tories voting for them is ridiculous. If you live and work with Tories every day you know that is never going to happen, ever.
If the Tories raise NI as floated in the press then Labour will need to respond. Is this an opportunity for Labour to go after wealth rather than income?
If the Tories raise NI as floated in the press then Labour will need to respond. Is this an opportunity for Labour to go after wealth rather than income?
The current labour policy is to pay for it from general taxation, that includes NI.
I wouldn't be surprised if NI is a smokescreen for something else based on the blowback they are getting
... but the point is it's an opportunity for Labour to do something different and fairer.
Raising NI is easiest for Tories as pensioners don't pay it and it disproportionately affects lower paid workers so has less effect on core Tory vote. Does this expose the tensions on the Tory vote between traditional Tory and ex-red wall
326+
If you want to win this number (or the more finely tuned figure) needs to be in your consciousness. Every policy announcement needs to have this in mind, every public utterance, every press release
Why?
If you don't you become the LibDems
I'll boringly say it again, if you aren't the government, you aren't legislating, if you aren't legislating you aren't creating real change. Labour needs to decide if it's a party of influencers or a potential government
The genius of the Tories is getting ordinary working people to think that it is fair for them to pay for social care while the very rich pay nothing. Unless Labour can do something about that, they will remain in tbe wilderness. Since Starmer has nothing to say on this subject, as on every other subject, the chances don't look good.
All the greatest hits, with an extra dose of deranged bitterness and failure to understand your own hypocrisy. 8/10
No Life of Brian memes - gonna have to dock a point.
Raising NI is easiest for Tories as pensioners don’t pay it
Anyone on state pension alone won't be paying any income tax either. It only effects pensioners with a second income. They haven't got many other electoral choices and if the alternative is potentially losing the dementia lottery and your wealth they'll grumpily go with anything
If you want to win this number (or the more finely tuned figure) needs to be in your consciousness. Every policy announcement needs to have this in mind, every public utterance, every press release
Part of what Labour needs to do is work to change the underlying national narrative - without a shift to a socially conscious society, not least because of climate change, Labour will never win an election.
Simply applying a test about whether a policy is a net gain or loss would end up with an incoherent mess of policies.
Unless Labour can do something about that, they will remain in tbe wilderness. Since Starmer has nothing to say on this subject, as on every other subject, the chances don’t look good.
How do you tell your typical 50+ Tory voter that they need to cough up a bit more for their healthcare in their more dementiary years when they could keep voting for the incumbent and let the yoof pay for it?
Anyone on state pension alone won’t be paying any income tax either. It only effects pensioners with a second income.
Nobody above state pension age pays NI irrespective of pension income (unless self employed). Income tax but not NI. So lots of pensioners earn enough to pay income tax so would be affected by increases in income tax but are not affected by NI increases. This is a key reason why it's attractive to Tories
...but less of the Tories. Starter and Labour really need to respond to the Tory position.
Something creative would be nice
but the point is it’s an opportunity for Labour to do something different and fairer
They already have a policy. Pay for it from general taxation, rather than make taxation less progressive under the pretence that you are doing so out of some backwards idea of “fairness” that big earners need to keep more of their income rather than pay a bigger share towards services out of their bigger incomes (and/or wealth).
Now, how does Starmer make that snappy and catchy? How does he present it in a way that doesn’t get twisted into Labour only being on the side of the lazy? Not really the man for that, is he? It’s a big ask.
Part of what Labour needs to do is work to change the underlying national narrative – without a shift to a socially conscious society, not least because of climate change, Labour will never win an election.
Yep. And you can't do that by trying to out flag-shag the ENP.
You need to appeal to moderate people who don't want to be ruled by a Variety act loosely based on early Mussolini.
There are more of us than you'd think but we're too metro for the purists.
But moderate people are the real enemy Danny, what with their establishment liberal elite fruit and veg and croissant eating ways.
Pay for it from general taxation
But what does that mean - don't increase any tax - or increase all taxes equally, or increase standard rate of incone tax, or higher rates, or VAT or restart the fuel escalator, lower IHT thresholds etc etc
It's a meaningless statement - all tax basically goes into a big "general taxation" pot
If Starmer repeats this as a policy after the Tories have specific tax plans he will be a mockery
Raising NI is easiest for Tories as pensioners don’t pay it
Nor does the model New Tory Voter. Most of their income is cash in hand and it doesn't go through any books.
specific tax plans
Labour hasn’t got a clue what it will be inheriting, so needs to avoid specific tax promises this far out from an election. There is the dilemma of opposition.
How did the SNP handle the revenue side of this issue when they changed Scotland’s approach to care?
Lisa Nandy - on Marr now. Labour line is talk to Tories and plan properly cross party solution
Marr push back - Tories have a plan, you don't, so would you vote for it.
I get the point about commitments early in electoral cycle - but clueless labour is become a stand of narrative in the mexia
But it’s a trap…
Why are people not asking which tax rises will specifically pay for the costs of the pandemic?
Why are people not asking which specific taxes will pay for the costs of defence spending?
If the country needs to do it. Do it. Then address the taxation system as an entirely separate issue. Don’t use social care as an excuse to rebalance tax towards the lower earners and away from higher ones.
The most ridiculous irony is that Corbyn was more enthusiastic about Brexit than Farage, but he wouldn’t come out and say so because that would jeopardise the Islington gravy train he’d been riding for 30 years
FFS man Corbyn went against his instincts on brexit to appease the centrist remainers in his party like Starmer. You wanted him to go much further if I remember, but now you’re having a go at him for not being more pro brexit?
I see no reason why it couldn't be done on income tax. Reducing the 40% threshold a bit might cover it.
but now you’re having a go at him for not being more pro brexit?
He wasn’t saying that, was he.
I see no reason why it couldn’t be done on income tax.
Or removing upper limits on NI. Or changing how we tax business. Or changing local taxation. Or another revision to CGT. Or removing the NI exemption for the rich and old. Or…
The point is that any major changes to our tax system shouldn’t be hung off the back of caring for people who need it. Take the decision to either fully or partly fund the care system (we don’t even know what Johnson is proposing, and he probably doesn’t yet either) and then, separately, and probably over two parliaments, sort out the tax system. A one liner response right now is doomed to be used to stoke up resentment and opposition to Labour’s pretend hypothesised tax increase rather than the Conservative’s one (which hasn’t even been announced yet).
“Why won’t Labour arbitrarily hang social care costs on one taxation change in many years time.”
“Well, the current government haven’t even done so yet, and they’re running the country (between nice long holidays).”
But what does that mean – don’t increase any tax – or increase all taxes equally, or increase standard rate of incone tax, or higher rates, or VAT or restart the fuel escalator, lower IHT thresholds etc etc
i think what it means is don't have a special extra tax for health care and social care.
However, it all feeds in to the fiction that a nation's economy is like a household economy. That's not the case except for the bit of the household economy which involves the kids washing the car in return for dad writing them an IOU on a post-it note.
