I will do when his fan club stop mourning his return to the allotment and appreciate that his time as leader* will be as quickly forgotten as his decades as an anonymous backbencher.
The point I’m making here is that the Tory’s have had 4 years without anything even remotely resembling a functioning opposition. And the complacency that that’s fostered has contributed to where we are now.
Thankfully that no longer appears to be the case.
* the word is used figuratively etc
Depends what you want from an opposition. An opposition that is actually different or an opposition that is the same but appears a bit more competent.
Corbyn was elected as he was different to the Tories. Opposed austerity!, opposed the various wars, he had some ideas if you remember the leadership hustings unlike the other candidates.
Its clear the Labour Party cant win with Corbyn or any of that bubble. But when Corbyn was elected it was equally clear Labour couldn't win from the centre.
Why do people keep posting crap from Novara like its a source the general public have actually heard of? Christ, more folk have actually heard of the Morning Star and look how seriously that's taken!
I've been taking an interest in this Starmer love in post on and off for a while. In no shape or form am I defending Johnson or the governments handling of the crisis. The only opinion I can offer is its easy to slam what the current administration is doing from the sidelines and with the benefit of hindsight when you know you will never be in a position to prove you would have been able to have done things any different. Assuming we never have another situation like this ever again.
So far I'm liking what I see with KS compared to his predecessor but time and policies will tell when all this is behind us.
I don't think hindsight is required to slam the government's handling of this crisis. It's clear that they can't communicate in an honest fashion provide clear advice or are following scientific recommendations, BMA backing teacher unions is the latest in a long line of this.
Other countries are acting in a more timely and cautious manner and appear to be protecting their populations, so learning and precedent is being set that can utilised by this government, yet they can't even copy others as that would be seen as a weakness (possibly, I'm not sure what stops them, probably ideology).
The Tories need their feet held to the fire for their handling of this as they continue to put us all at risk. KS is doing an admirable job so far and the approach appears to be working with the right wing press questioning the actions of the government. Hell even Matt Lucas and Phillip Schofield are doing a good job of this which suggests that government advice is poor from the outset, no hindsight required!
Depends what you want from an opposition. An opposition that is actually different or an opposition that is the same but appears a bit more competent.
Well, quite. My hope is that Starmer will lead a genuine opposition but some of his actions so far are not at all promising.
I suspect we're all riding a bit of a wave of relief, with Starmer appearing to rub far fewer people up the wrong way than JC seemed to.
I've personally rejoiced at the PMQ performances so far.
It's an interesting comment that
some of his actions so far are not at all promising
Can you say which actions those are?
Genuine question, and my apologies if you've already articulated them up there ^^^ somewhere and I've just missed them.
An opposition that is actually different
Is there where the “Starmer is just like the Tories” nonsense begins?
We all know it’s coming.
Let’s get it done and out of the way.
kelvin
SubscriberAn opposition that is actually different
Is there where the “Starmer is just like the Tories” nonsense begins?
We all know it’s coming.
Let’s get it done and out of the way.
I thought my post was clear but for you K- I was putting the election of Corbyn in context rather than criticising Starmer. Labour must get elected next! Its self defeating to criticise him for the sake of it and I'm disappointed that Labour cant get its shit together and pull in one way. The centrists should have got behind Corbz the lefties should get behind Starmer.
Agreed. I’m a ‘lefty’, who only started voting Labour because Corbyn shifted their polices. I can get behind Starmer, and will be voting for Labour under him. But “getting behind him” doesn’t mean that I can’t talk about my concerns as regards his lack of charisma and how he can counteract the new bread of populist Tories at the next general election. Likewise, getting behind Corbyn didn’t mean turning a blind eye to who he appointed as advisors, or the way he dealt with Labour MPs, especially female ones. My preferred policies were very much inline with Corbyn’s, I’m one of the few who welcomed the broadband initiative for example, and I even support his long standing position on nuclear weapons that he had to put to one side as leader, but he turned out to be an utterly useless party leader. Being voted in leader the first time helped change the party to one I could vote for. Once he’d shown he wasn’t up to the job of leader, he should have moved on or been moved on. I’ll be leaving blind faith and lack of critical thinking to the Johnson followers.
I’ll be leaving blind faith and lack of critical thinking to the Johnson followers.
These are the people Keir needs to win over
Can you say which actions those are?
Genuine question, and my apologies if you’ve already articulated them up there ^^^ somewhere and I’ve just missed them.
So far he's failed to support renters and is backed by the Friends of Israel. I don't think this should be Labour territory. There's other stuff in the article upthread that was dismissed without anyone really saying why it was wrong.
I think there's a real risk of Starmer being the polar opposite of Corbyn: an effective parliamentary leader who isn't fully behind what should be core Labour values. I say this as someone who put him as second preference...
Labour Friends of Israel seek a two state solution. The Labour Party has long had support for a two state solution as policy. What exactly is your problem?
Thanks ransos - I see where you're coming from; the renters thing seems to be an odd decision to me, too, although I can't say I understand all the details or ramifications.
For me I guess, I'm happy to see someone electable, and performing competently in the lead of the opposition. I'm going to accept things that I wouldn't necessarily agree with as a price I'm, so far, very happy to pay to see the tories on the back foot.
I joined the Labour Party after the last election, although I think I'm atypical of a labour supporter in some ways, as this bunch of idiots we've currently got need to be stopped in my view, at almost any cost. I'm still finding my feet as a new party member, and need to get more up to speed with exactly those kind of issues (above) that people are showing concern about, so I understand them better.
Thanks for indulging me.
I really don't give a stuff about Israel they are a pain in the arse.
Therefore I really don't care about anyone elses opinion of Israeli.
What I do want us someone to hold the bloody Tories to account.
I see where you’re coming from; the renters thing seems to be an odd decision to me, too, although I can’t say I understand all the details or ramifications.
I don't think it's in anyone's top ten of big things to worry about at the moment.
Unless you are a renter, in which case it's about no. 5
I really don’t give a stuff about Israel they are a pain in the arse.
If you don't give a stuff about other people's problems then vote Tory.
Labour Friends of Israel seek a two state solution. The Labour Party has long had support for a two state solution as policy. What exactly is your problem?
The group is an apologist for the racist Israeli government.
Can anyone point me at some information about the renters thing, please...?
or the way he dealt with Labour MPs, especially female ones
???
He had a majority female shadow cabinet and women in most of the senior shadow cabinet posts. I'd be quite happy to never talk about Corbyn again but it's this sort of ludicrous comment which keeps bringing me back. He was no more a sexist/mysoginist than he was a racist, and now he's back volunteering at food banks in his community rather than in the media spotlight people think they can just make whatever shit up about him that they like. It's pathetic.
It’s pathetic.
That doesn’t sound like a conversation starter… so I won’t bother.
I see where you’re coming from; the renters thing seems to be an odd decision to me, too, although I can’t say I understand all the details or ramifications.
I don’t think it’s in anyone’s top ten of big things to worry about at the moment.
Unless you are a renter, in which case it’s about no. 5
I'd say the risk of losing a roof over your head is pretty high up there but whatever, must be lovely to be financially secure and not have that worry. Meanwhile those at the bottom aren't worth considering. Charming.
Forget who is asking for what, read the details and see why it's bad.
The Guardian is reporting the latest polling has Starmers approval ratings above Johnsons after this week.
With that renters thing, is there any possibility of an argument that it's a temporary position to avoid hardship now, and then consider a better solution when the biggest issues are under better control?
I can see a sweeping "cancel all rent for a period" being the kind of thing that might have unintended consequences?
The tories are going to try and shift the narrative now, they are starting to play the blame game with the EU again, so they can get back onto familiar territory where they will expect to win, and at least have the support of their media allias. They are also deliberately antagonizing the teaching unions, which IMO is a politically motivated action to try and draw the old anti union battle lines, and pit the private vs public sector.
Most of the press will quickly line up behind the tories on these two issues, so it's going to be a tougher jobs, especially if the unions rise to the bait, which while they have every right to do so, will damage them and labour. Play it right and the tories will just keep embarrassing themselves as they lie and lie in an attempt to create more divisions in society, but there is danger ahead.
Agree with that ^^^.
Starmer needs to keep pressing for specifics...
"Can the right honourable gentleman please explain how the EU has made the covid-19 situation in the UK worse / withdrawn cooperation / killed baby robins?"
As for the teachers and their unions, they need to not rise to the bait like they have. Using phrases like 'withdrawing cooperation' is dumb. They need to lay out a series of easily understandable scenarios and questions and ask for specific clarification on how they should be handled practically. Bohnson's lot will try to give it the 'we cannot anticipate every situation' bullshit, which is where the unions should so 'of course not, just the three or four we have asked about'.
Keep holding these bastards up to scrutiny. The longer they are in full view the more stupid they look.
I think they may well have misjudged the public mood by picking a fight with teachers.
Surely this offers another opportunity for Starmer to side with public sector workers who’s stock has never been higher and point out what we all know... that the Tories couldn’t give a flying **** about them
Hopefully Starmer will end up being like the 'Marvel's the Punisher' for the Tories.
Love to see him go head to head with Pritstick Patel.
As for link to Guardian article on previous page - based on momentum attempting to stir shit.
Sure, there is a continuing need to protect renters but momentum - if they truly were labour party supporters - would be looking to work with the party and it's new leadership.
Instead they continue agitating for their narrow range of interests and fail, yet again, to see the bigger picture.
Next weeks PMQs will provide another opportunity for Starmer to humiliate johnson as the incompetent he is; tory (mis)management of covid-19....the gift that keeps on giving.
binners
SubscriberI think they may well have misjudged the public mood by picking a fight with teachers.
I was absolutely amazed at the official government twitter and facebook posts- absolutely wall-to-wall furious parents. Even the bots got drowned out. It's obviously not a great way to judge real public opinion but it didn't feel at all like the usual bottom-half-of-the-internet
I think they may well have misjudged the public mood by picking a fight with teachers.
I think they have a reasonable chance of splitting teachers off from NHS staff. There is a lot of latent anti-teacher sentiment amongst 30-40 somethings who resent the holidays and the shorter days (I know that is not really the case a lot of the time, but this is all about 'impressions' rather specifics).
Remember Joris is all about vague impressions rather than specifics. That is where bullshitters thrive.
It will only take a few days of media manipulation, blaming teachers for blocking life returning to normal, being uncooperative, not willing to take the risks everybody else has to etc etc and the public mood could change. The tories are masters at it.
It is better ploy for the tories to attack a union (or a unionized profession to be more accurate) than lay into Starmer directly, if the union mishandle the situation, Starmer will be forced to defend them or denounce them, but he has little control over them. If this time the union gets it right, they just turn on someone else next time until someone cracks.
Good news! Lansman resigns.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52694053
Love this quote....said he would not miss "operating against a backdrop of warring factions, abuse and hatred".
He and his fellow travellers were responsible for warring, abuse and hatred.
FFS, what a hypocrite.
Definitely won't be missed.
Good riddance to him and the rest of his millionaire Marxist chums. 3 years too late
Hypocrite is most definitely the word. Amongst many others that spring readily to mind
Don’t let the door hit your arse on the way out
As for link to Guardian article on previous page – based on momentum attempting to stir shit.
Sure, there is a continuing need to protect renters but momentum – if they truly were labour party supporters – would be looking to work with the party and it’s new leadership.
Like I said, ignore the messenger and instead concentrate on the message rather than giving it something barely worthy of lip service.
As for the "no true scotsman" argument...
squirrel, I understand the message and don't do lip service to or for anything.
My comments still stand.
Any thoughts about Lansman resigning as momentum chief exec?
Milne and McCluskey are now looking more and more like ghosts at the feast; let's hope that Unite members get rid of red len and Starmer shows Milne the door - Augean stables and all that.
Milnes already gone. And Jennie Formby.
All paid off on the big fat juicy contracts they awarded themselves a week before they delivered the worst election defeat for 85 years
Millionaires already, they rewarded themselves very, very handsomely for their epic failure
All very socialist, comrades
And now they’re rats leaving the ship they sunk.
binners - I knew formby had gone; must have missed milne's departure; time for a celebratory drink as the process of washing the shit away continues.
Their self-awarded contracts amounted to nothing less than fraud.
Despite the best efforts of milne & co the ship hasn't sunk; it's been holed but is being repaired.
Starmer is a multi-millionaire and was financed by squillionnaire industrialists. Why? Because they knew he would back the landlords and business owners, and they were right.
Frank - stop rewriting history - most of the infighting came from the right of the party who behaved appallingly from supporting tories in Scotland to continual briefing against the party in England
I understand the message and don’t do lip service to or for anything.
So do you have any thoughts other than "Sure, there is a continuing need to protect renters"? What should the opposition be doing? Do you think they are doing it effectively?
I'm not talking about or interested in Corbyn, Milne, Marx or whoever else you trot out. This topic is about Starmer, Corbyn and chums have their own.
Starmer's not perfect, particularly if you wanted a more left wing but electable version of it, it does seem quite Tory lite in places.
But right now it feels like being stood in a house that's on fire, but I'm refusing to go outside because I'm only in my pyjamas and it's cold out there. Anything that is an alternative to what we have now has to be a step in the right direction.
And I'm certainly looking forward to SKS QC taking Boris apart time and again over the coming weeks and months.
or another way - I've been out of the town and missed the last bus home. There's not another one until tomorrow and it's an eight mile walk.
Or, there's a bus over there that doesn't go right past my house but it does go to the next village which is only two miles away.
For the non Parliment watcher like me Starmer seems like a complete non entity, never on the news and never saying much when he does manage to get on TV
