Why is it only the (lefty) backbenchers that are making any kind of noise about this?
Because there are bigger fish to fry right now than situations thousands of miles away that the labour party can have pretty much zero impact on, whatever it does.
There are far more pressing issues to be dealt with closer to home right now, which it may be in a position to actually effect
There's also the issue of not conforming to stereotypes and voters rolling their eyes while, with the country still in the middle of a pandemic, the 'lefties' are banging on about Palestine yet again. When meanwhile back in the real (relevant) world their kids have just been sent home from school to self-isolate for another week, and they're going to have to take another unpaid week off work and possibly lose their job.
Palestine is obviously an important issue for a lot of British Muslims. There are nearly 3 million of them, apparently. 3 million is a sizeable number. The kind of number you might need, to win a parliamentary majority.
So who are they going to vote for instead? Is George Galloway going to clone himself and stand in every constituency? Maybe the Tory's, who absolutely, definitely do care an awful lot about Palestine and muslims generally?
That’s a pretty mad concept to get your head around, I know.
Well you seem to be struggling getting your head around it binners.
Starmer seems to think that issues such as anti-Semitism are so important that he is determined to deny Corbyn the Labour whip.
And Corbyn's crime? Suggesting that anti-Semitism is an exaggerated problem.
Your ability to duck and dive binners is only matched by Starmer's.
Because there are bigger fish to fry right now than situations thousands of miles away that the labour party can have pretty much zero impact on, whatever it does.
So; in the hypothetical situation where there WAS a Labour government, they'd then be in a position to have some influence over the Israel/Palestine conflict. Given that that conflict is getting increasingly nasty, and mainly driven by the Israeli regime, which the UK supports, do you not think it important to standaginast such fascistic behaviour? I thought you were concerned with fascism?
There’s also the issue of not conforming to stereotypes and voters rolling their eyes while, with the country still in the middle of a pandemic, the ‘lefties’ are banging on about Palestine yet again.
The 'lefties' have been 'banging on' about protecting the NHS, better pay and conditions for NHS workers, improved access to vaccination services, better protection for key workers, concern at the completely useless way the government has dealt with the pandemic, etc.
As well as Palestine.
Meanwhile, Andy Burnham panders to fascism by dog-whistling about asylum seekers...
The present Israeli government doesn't give flying **** what anyone thinks. I doubt they know where the UK is.
We were an international irrelevance pre-Brexit, we're completely irrelevant now. While the US continues to bankroll the Israeli military, theres little anyone can do to effect the situation.
I thought you were concerned with fascism?
I'm concerned that we have a government in this country that is behaving like a fascist state. I'd rather the labour party applied itself to fighting that, rather than a situation in Palestine it can do absolutely nothing about
Meanwhile, Andy Burnham panders to fascism by dog-whistling about asylum seekers…
Hang on a minute? Andy Burnham is a fascist now?
Erm.... ok then
The present Israeli government doesn’t give flying **** what anyone thinks. I doubt they know where the UK is.
You know that saying, 'better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt'?
That. You'd do so much better if you just stuck to stuff you actually have half a clue about. Instead of waffling on about subjects you are woefully ignorant on.
How's things down the Rose and Crown?
There are far more pressing issues to be dealt with closer to home right now
You do realise don't you that the 'irrelevant' issue of Palestine and labour's treatment of its extremely loyal muslim voters nearly lost them the Batley and Spen by-election, which if replicated across the country would have them losing dozens of seats in 'safe' metropolitan areas. I presume these seats will be replaced by other constituencies where the tory supporting jewish community will suddenly start voting labour?
How’s things down the Rose and Crown?
Aaaaaaand.... we're back onto banging on about my local pub yet again, for some utterly inexplicable reason.
The present Israeli government doesn’t give flying **** what anyone thinks. I doubt they know where the UK is.
It's hard to imagine a more ridiculous comment. I can't think of any country in the world that cares more about its international reputation than Israel.
Yes it does as it pleases but only in the knowledge that Western governments support it.
Israel has one of the most powerful and technically advanced military in the world, not a bad achievement for a country with a population the size of London's.
How do think it has achieved that?
Left to stand on its own two feet Israel would not be a viable independent state.
You do realise don’t you
He doesn't. He really doesn't.
How do think it has achieved that?
U S A
I’m concerned that we have a government in this country that is behaving like a fascist state. I’d rather the labour party applied itself to fighting that, rather than a situation in Palestine it can do absolutely nothing about
Agree. Yes the Labour party should be involved in Palestine and all the other countries that are more of a mess than the UK is (mostly from past UK meddling) but as it is not in power that is not something they have any influence on and more importantly has no importance to the majority of voters as a way to get into power to then do something about it.
Concentrate on getting into power and then do what you want once you have it.
Have you lot learnt nothing from the tories.
Lordy. So many words. So much ignorance.
This thread stands as a sort of microcosm of the labour left.
No matter what the issue being discussed is, within a couple of posts we're back on to Palestine and antisemitism yet again.
A lot of voters look at what the Labour party became under grandad and just see a sixth form protest group thats far more interested in whats going on in the middle east than whats going on in the UK
Maybe why the present leadership must sigh with weary resignation when the usual suspects start rattling on about it yet again.
It’s hard to imagine a more ridiculous comment. I can’t think of any country in the world that cares more about its international reputation than Israel.
Yes it does as it pleases but only in the knowledge that Western governments support it.
I refer the right honourable gentleman to the comment I made in the above post
While the US continues to bankroll the Israeli military, theres little anyone can do to effect the situation.
They don't give a toss what anyone outside Washington thinks as long as the ammunition for the F-16s keeps landing
grandad and just see a sixth form protest group
And we're back to talking about grandad and sixth formers.
From a man whose posts betray a remarkable level of naivety and senility.
This thread stands as a sort of microcosm of the labour left.
No matter what the issue being discussed is, within a couple of posts we’re back on to Palestine and antisemitism yet again.
Actually, the 'lefties' on here have discussed a whole range of topics, from anti-Semitism and xenophobia, to nationalisation of essential services and utilities. All you've done is attempt to belittle and abuse anyone who disagrees with you.You haven't actually 'discussed' anything. You simply post your (mostly ignorant and blinkered) opinion, then when challenged, resort to abuse and ad hominems. With a few pictures. How very grown up.
They don’t give a toss what anyone outside Washington thinks as long as the ammunition for the F-16s keeps landing
Yes they do. And the US also cares deeply what its allies, G7 partners, and other Permanent Members of the UN Security Council think.
The US's attempts under George Bush to go it alone internationally were abandoned very rapidly after the start of the second Gulf War.
Aaaaaaand…. we’re back onto banging on about my local pub yet again, for some utterly inexplicable reason.
Rod Liddle, bit of food on his tie...
It's almost as if you can't care about something whilst simultaneously caring about something else.
Labour scrape through in a by-election in an formerly safe seat with a large muslim population, one of their own MPs describes the leadership as showing 'contempt' for muslims by readmitting someone with a highly dodgy track record of statements which would never be tolerated about other groups, but apparently it's a non-issue, because..... erm....?
Weirdly you were extremely vocal about supposed anti-semitism in the Labour Party binners - and people wonder why some Muslim Labour MPs/supporters use terms like 'hierarchy of racism'.
Or perhaps AS was just a useful stick to beat people with that you don't like eh?
Also, who mentioned Palestine? Oh that's right, it was you.
This thread stands as a sort of microcosm of the labour left.
It certainly does. And you are right Binners about the UK not being able to influence what Israel does, I suppose we could stop buying weapons off them, but the reality, which is either through being uninformed or wilful ignorance from the left, is if you want the Israel/Palestinian conflict to end you need only look as far as the pro-Israeli lobby groups in and around Washington. And Hamas. Which also conveniently furthers the interests of the protagonists in the conflict.
Its a very nice position for the left to have, having what is a good set of principles, but never going beyond the comfortable protest party mentality mindset, so not having to actually do anything.
I should mention that this "infighting" in the party is playing into the hands of our adversaries, but after the total denial by the left over their part in the 2019 election defeat, which continues through their actions to this day, they will continue to ignore that as well.
So protest away. Preferably in another political party.
I should mention that this “infighting” in the party is playing into the hands of our adversaries
Oh the ironing.
I suppose we could stop buying weapons off them
Pretty sure it's mostly the other way round.
Oh the ironing.
Is that the best you've got? Actually, yes it is.
Pretty sure it’s mostly the other way round.
You are right. However, I made no mention of who sells how much of what to who in my post.
after the total denial by the left over their part in the 2019 election defeat, which continues through their actions to this day, they will continue to ignore that as well.
What about the total denial by the right over their part in the 2019 election defeat, which was far, far more significant than whatever nonsense you're citing, as it was actually real, and deliberately designed to ensure Corbyn lost, and the continued demonisation of the 'left', as exemplified by yourself, which continues to this day?
What about that?
You are aware that this whole idea of an orchestrated campaign from within the labour party to ensure the labour party lost the general election is right up there with 'the moon landings were faked', right?
Were there aliens involved too? Mossad? The CIA?
People trying to claim that the factional infighting is all from the left side of the Labour Party are comically deluded and not to be taken seriously.
The simple fact is that the 'centrists' are in charge now and despite an utterly disastrous performance by Starmer in virtually every poll, as well as several by-elections the discontent/protest from the left has been very minimal indeed especially compared to the wild hysterical smearing and directly admitted undermining campaign that went on under the previous leader. See also kicking the previous leader out of the party on totally spurious grounds.
Starmer was supposed to unite the parts and make Labour credible/electable again - he's come nowhere near achieving either, and 'the left' bogeymen have nothing to do with it at all.
Now we also have it confirmed that the supposed commitment to anti-racism was a load of BS too, but those on the left are meant to just shut up and get the flags out. It's utterly absurd.
Mandelson, a former cabinet minister under Tony Blair and Gordon Brown, told an event for the Jewish Chronicle that he was actively working to bring an end to Corbyn’s leadership.
“It’s the other faction that won’t unite, not the one that more closely aligns to my own views” - around and around and around. Tory rule for the rest of our lives. Nailed on.
Yes fine kelvin but THE LEFT AREN'T IN CHARGE and haven't been for a while. And trying to argue that there is anything like the level of undermining that went on under the (more successful) previous leadership just makes you look very silly.
We were endlessly lectured about how a more professional/electable leader would wipe the floor with the Tories, how's that going?
You can only unite behind those currently in charge, or whine on incessantly about them not uniting the party (without any sense of irony). The pattern needs breaking at some point. They’ll be another leadership within 3 years… hopefully that leader will be more left leaning, but regardless, they need to lead a coalition of those on the left and the centre left… which can’t be imposed, it requires both sides to call a truce and focus on the future, it requires the public battles to end and for everyone the get behind that leader. I can’t see that happening. So… Tory rule, for the rest of our lives, nailed on.
You can only unite behind those currently in charge
He needs to be worthy of uniting behind. He's not. He's a hypocritical charmless weathervane in hock to wealthy donors and most people can see right through him. That's the main issue.
As any sports fan will tell you it's a lot easier to be united when you're winning.
You are aware that blah blah blah blah blah...
Rod Liddle; little bit of food on his jacket...
“It’s the other faction that won’t unite, not the one that more closely aligns to my own views” – around and around and around. Tory rule for the rest of our lives. Nailed on.
Which faction has the wealth and power?
Nobody remotely associated with the labour party has either
Thats the other lot
Nobody remotely associated with the labour party has either
Where to even start with this....
Why bother?
He’s a hypocritical charmless weathervane in hock to wealthy donors and most people can see right through him. That’s the main issue.
What, so they went and voted tory, right?
What about the total denial by the right over their part in the 2019 election defeat
You defeated yourselves, you chose Corbyn as leader for a start. The reality...I know, its not something a lot of you are in touch with currently, is how to learn from that defeat and change your approach, which is difficult when some of your number claim they "won the debate". Also, the focus seems to be on winning back those former red wall seats, while ignoring the fact that you will have to win tory seats as well.
And honestly, having Corbyn in charge with a background that the media could exploit...one of the greatest own goals of all time.
Which faction has the wealth and power?
Is the answer Len McCluskey?
Whatever, you can't force anyone to unite. Not sure who can bring the party together, or if it's even possible, to be honest. I have no answers.
What, so they went and voted tory, right?
Or perhaps people dont bother voting or perhaps vote for a change any change?
Most people admit Corbyn was a crap leader, and half the party hated him, and he was massively unfairly treated by the media (confirmed by actual research), but he was still significantly more popular than Starmer is now. Let that one sink in for a moment.
People know Boris is a lying **** but he comes across as authentic not just driven by focus groups and advisers. Corbyn was authentic and stood for something, regardless of how bad he was as an actual leader. Does anyone think Starmer comes across as authentic and standing for anything?
I actually think the Labour party might just be finished, or in a weird position where it turns into the opposite of what it started out as. The Tories taking much of the economic ground that Labour are too scared to touch makes Labour largely irrelevant as a party.
You defeated yourselves, you chose Corbyn as leader for a start. The reality…I know, its not something a lot of you are in touch with currently,
What happened to 'us'?
Divide et impera...
Most people admit Corbyn was a crap leader
Blair was a crap leader because he brought about the death of the traditional Labour party, lied to everyone and helped create an illegal war which resulted in genocide
Brown was crap leader because he sold all the gold, and he helped Blair
Milliband was a crap leader because he was... Milliband
And that's before we get started on the likes of Kinnock, Foot etc.
Starmer is crap because...?
Is the answer Len McCluskey?
No, it's not. Funny that, eh?
There's none so blind, as those who cannot see. Keep those blinkers on, because the reality may scare you too much.
It was a joke.
Who do you think can unite the party?
It was a joke.
Ah, right. Don't give up the day job, eh? 😉
Who do you think can unite the party?
Labour cannot be anywhere near 'united' unless the right wing neoliberal elite are removed from the party. Because as it is, you cannot have right-wing neoliberal ideals anywhere near anything truly progressive. The right wingers can go off and join the Funny Tingers, and leave the Labour party to those who do actually want to see societal change. That would be enormously helpful.
So, you're just siding with one faction in wanting rid of the other, rather than wanting the party to unite in opposition to the Tories. That's fine, but it just reinforces what I'm saying. So… Tory rule, for the rest of our lives, nailed on.
Tory rule, for the rest of our lives, nailed on.
Which is what we ended up with under Blair, and what you'll get if Labour continue in their current format anyway. What is it about that, that's so hard for you to understand?
Do you want to see societal change, or not?
