I was pulling your plonka binners, I know you are proper posh. You go out on the piss with a copy of the Guardian FFS.
my dad was a toolmaker
Mine too! (Well something like that, he’s a ninja with a hammer anyway). Sadly my mum wasn’t a nurse, just a minimum wage factory clone. I’ve no idea why that’s relevant though. After observing the reality of the old school working class work ethic I decided that killing myself working to make bosses rich was a bloody stupid idea. 😀
You go out on the piss with a copy of the Guardian FFS.
Pretty sure Binners is one of the four people in the country who still buy a paper one. At least he won’t have to tolerate the repeated begging messages and guilt trips about how many articles you’ve read recently.
I don’t care what class you are or where you come from, sitting and reading a proper paper copy of the Guardian while sat in the pub with a pint is one of life’s simple joys.
Ernie, I was referring to Starmer's innate common decency - possibly over developed; not going to discuss that any further.
Daz, you say you have never met an aggressive whisk(e)y drinker; really?
I thought you were a man of the world - and from the true north.
Come with me for a weekend in my home town of Wallsend; now 100+ miles away and...breathe deeply.
Industrial heritage - which, I think, still persists - chaps drink beer until they've had enough volume then move on to spirits; typically dark spirits so...whisky, brandy, rum.
Rum'n'pep was always a favourite in mining areas; absolutely vile drink.
I've seen plenty of pissed up, aggressive, whisky fuelled arses; regrettably, I cannot excuse myself from that canon - many years ago, I'm pleased to say.
I'm now either a little more civilised - or a little less uncivilised.
Off for a sip off Sauternes now; that would get me crucified in Wallsend.
In view of comments establishing 'working class credentials' I present mine for review/comment/criticism.
My Dad served his time as a blacksmith with Swan Hunter (ship builders) in Wallsend where his father had served his time and then worked as a boiler-maker.
My mother worked in a hat factory in Galway (Eire) before moving to the UK and marrying; she wanted a little part-time job which she found.
When my brother and I approached O levels (as they were then) my father insisted my mother gave up her little part-time job to focus on their children's education, exam success and everything that led to; she did and we (brother & I) benefitted.
Different world now.
Their unshakeable view was that they would do everything possible to ensure their children had the best possible chances in life.
Both long dead but eternally grateful for their attitude and behaviour.
All of my schoolmates had parents with exactly the same views.
That ends tonight's reminiscence special.
Why the apparent obsession with parents class background? Isn't social mobility a recognised thing? How does what your parents were define you? Even within siblings there can be significant class differences.
Why the apparent obsession with parents class background?
This is what I was getting at. I looked at my parents and the working class culture they were part of and thought ‘f*** that!’. There was a way out back then for anyone who wanted out, but now that’s much more difficult.
That’s really what Starmer should be concentrating on. There’s an open goal around a radical programme to bring back social mobility, but he’s scared of pissing off the middle classes with their property portfolios.
Social mobility justifies the system and makes it appear meritocratic. Doesn't matter who your parents were, it's your class location and politics that count. It's class inequality that needs attacking, not insufficient mobility. I'm sure you can find all sorts of ex-working class and ethnic minorities in the tory party and so f what? It's what you do not what you were. Otherwise we go down the very tedious route of credentialism contests (which I'd win anyway, tee hee!).
Why the apparent obsession with parents class background?
Because it is an antidote to the typical Tory MPs background and to show Labour MPs are more like the people who are voting for them.
The evidence shows that really doesn't matter though as those previously lifelong Labour voters were happy to vote for Johnson who's background couldn't have been further from them.
Starmer won't ever be more popular with the voters than Johnson, no matter what he does.
Doesn’t matter who your parents were, it’s your class location and politics that count. It’s class inequality that needs attacking, not insufficient mobility.
I couldn't agree more. Class mobility is traditionally the right-wing 'solution' to social injustice.
In fact the Tory Party can provide stunning examples of social mobility.
But social mobility is a two-way street. It doesn't in any way guarantee social justice.
The theory, much loved by Guardian readers, that everyone one can be middle-class is great if you believe that you can have a middle without any ends. The Tories take it a bit further and claim that everyone can be super rich.
Starmer won’t ever be more popular with the voters than Johnson, no matter what he does.
...being common doesn't give you the common touch. Ha well. He's a man of the my sort of people.
Social mobility justifies the system and makes it appear meritocratic.
Depends what you mean by social mobility. All I’m talking about is being able to break out of whatever situation you were born into. In my case that was a life of being stuck in the same village, getting pissed in the local every weekend and working my bollocks off in a job I hate. With a modicum of effort you could change that back in my day, now though you need parents with money.
The governments pathetic announcement yesterday about the piddling amount of funding being given for kids who've suffered educationally over the last year shows just how committed they are to social mobility.
Namely, they couldn't give a flying **** about it.
They're quite content that disadvantaged kids have suffered the most educationally, whereas the rich and middle classes have emerged with their advantages further entrenched.
https://twitter.com/labourpress/status/1400137086913613824?s=20
Namely, they couldn’t give a flying **** about it.
I agree. Looking forward to hearing what Keir plans to do about it. I presume it’ll be more than ‘we need to do better’.
Kate Green is actually pretty impressive. Mind you, when the education secretary is Frank Spencer Gavin Williamson there are items of furniture or pot plants that would look brighter and more competent
They’re quite content that disadvantaged kids have suffered the most educationally, whereas the rich and middle classes have emerged with their advantages further entrenched.
Maintaining that future bank of unqualified workers who'll be forced to take shit jobs for shit money. Fair play to the guy resigning, though already(literally) yesterday's news
Did they have PMQs yesterday or are they in recess?
EDIT - lazy sods are off this week again!!!!
I think I'll leave this here since everyone seems to be trying to out-working class each other.
I'm not sure what these imaginary "sides" are.
I've never called you anti-Semitic, I just questioned your use of an anti-Semitic trope. And would do so again.
The theory, much loved by Guardian readers, that everyone one can be middle-class is great if you believe that you can have a middle without any ends. The Tories take it a bit further and claim that everyone can be super rich.
Spot on. The Blairite idea of creating a much larger 'middle class', similar to the US definition rather than drawing form traditional British concepts of 'class', depends on maintaining an 'underclass' who can still be relied upon to do all the shit jobs the 'milieu nouveau' don't want to, because they are above the 'common herd'. You still need a bottom, for a middle to exist. But Blairism is only really about selling an illusion; the reality is that more people are now closer to the bottom than the top, as it only ever truly benefitted the existing wealthy elites. The boom in homeowners will soon make way for generation after generation of renters, with nothing to fall back on as their parents have had to 'downsize' or even sell up completely, to pay for that route out from being the üntermensch. I'm starting to already see the effects of this, with people growing more resentful to older generations for squandering 'their' inheritance on things like supplementing their pensions, and paying for their old age care, as the safety net of the welfare state disintegrates. Some will end up with nice houses in Highgate, perhaps. Most won't.
I’ve never called you anti-Semitic, I just questioned your use of an anti-Semitic trope. And would do so again.
You were wrong. Move on.
Stop trying to attach my name to things I haven't said or done then. And I will not stop pointing out obvious anti-semetic tropes, even if posted due to ignorance rather than malice.
Lordy. You know the expression, 'when in a hole, stop digging'? That.
Let's be brutally honest here, keeping the masses uneducated suits the Tory agenda of having Spaffing Clowns for front men to force through their agenda.
depends on maintaining an ‘underclass’ who can still be relied upon to do all the shit jobs the ‘milieu nouveau’ don’t want to, because they are above the ‘common herd’.
Surely it was 'Blairism' that saw mass immigration as the answer to this. The Nu Labour government effectively imported an underclass by the million, precisely for this purpose.
Now that Brexit has forced all those people back to where they came from, surely it is now, in this post-Brexit free-for-all that we we will see the true creation of a 'native' underclass? The irony being that they actually got them to vote for their own downgrading to menial/slave labour
The welfare state is threadbare enough as it is now it's been stripped away. You can't even exist at a subsistence level on Universal Credit. Would anyone be remotely surprised if the next stage of Project Brexit will be to say to the unemployed that they won't be entitled to any benefits while theres fruit that needs picking or Boris's mate Tim needs barstaff?
I think it's more about 'training' people rather than helping them become 'educated'. The monetisation of education, begun under John Major with the introduction of student loans, then continued with the introduction of tuition fees under Blair, has had the (intended) effect of pushing people much more towards course that have a more defined 'value' in terms of 'careers' and future earning potential. Important, but not the be all and end all. People can have higher degrees in vers specific areas, yet still not be very well 'educated' in a broader sense. So much more about creating efficient drones that benefit capitalism, than actually creating a well educated society.
So much more about creating efficient drones that benefit capitalism, than actually creating a well educated society.
Fair point. If this is a well educated society then there seems to be a massive amount of Stockholm Syndrome going on
The Brexit vote was broadly polarised by education levels. I'd say the last election was the same. Surely both these things proved the level of ignorance about important issues is absolutely staggering. No society that is broadly well educated would have voted for Brexit.
But given the huge increase in education budgets under Blair I don't think you can really lay much of the blame there, surely?
If this is a well educated society
It isn't. That's my point. Many people may be well 'trained', but not necessarily well 'educated'. That's an important distinction.
I know this is going to come as a shock to you but I'm agreeing with you.
I think that people are being 'conditioned' into beliefs around certain issues that little little basis in reality. The EU being a prime example. All myths and lies, easily sold.
Michael Goves changes to the education system sought to completely eradicate any form of creativity and creative thinking in favour of parrot-like 'learning' to pass set exams, with curriculum's set in stone.
A population more predisposed to creative and abstract thought wouldn't be as easily gaslighted as large sections of our society have been by this lot
You'd be an absolute idiot not to.
I’ve never called you anti-Semitic, I just questioned your use of an anti-Semitic trope. And would do so again.
Yep, that is exactly what you did. Turned out the phrase was made in complete ignorance but I don't think anything was learned from that as defence mode was immediately applied.
A population more predisposed to creative and abstract thought wouldn’t be as easily gaslighted as large sections of our society have been by this lot
While the country seems to have got more stupid/gullible I don't think social media has helped at all and is the root cause behind many things.
Yep, that is exactly what you did. Turned out the phrase was made in complete ignorance but I don’t think anything was learned from that as defence mode was immediately applied.
Sorry; is this aimed at me, or Kelvin?
While the country seems to have got more stupid/gullible I don’t think social media has helped at all and is the root cause behind many things.
The fact that it's an unregulated space has been seized on by the Putins and Dominic Cummings of the world to peddle misinformation and lies. If you've not watched the Cambridge Analytica documentary it makes for pretty terrifying viewing.
But at the end of the day we have to ask why people are unquestioningly buying into this shit when its manifestly against their best interests to do so. I think education levels are a massive element of this. Gove knew exactly what he was doing with his 'return to the 1950's' changes to the education system. Its all part of the ongoing culture war. They don't want a questioning populace asking about awkward stuff, they want drones.
Thats the reason they have absolutely no intention of properly funding whats needed for the more disadvantaged kids to make up for the education they missed during Covid. The middle classes maintained their position, while the privately educated further entrenched their already huge advantage over everyone else
Would anyone be remotely surprised if the next stage of Project Brexit will be to say to the unemployed that they won’t be entitled to any benefits while theres fruit that needs picking or Boris’s mate Tim needs barstaff?
I quote verbatim from the cabinet's Brexit handbook Brittania Unchained:
Once they enter the workplace, the British are among the worst idlers in the world.
We work among the lowest hours, we retire early and our productivity is poor.
Whereas Indian children aspire to be doctors or businessmen, the British are more
interested in football and pop music.
and...
Addison Lee’s drivers work on a freelance basis. They can net £600
per week in take-home pay. But they have to work for it – around
60 hours per week.
In other words, work harder, bitches.
And they got the drones to vote for their new penury and sold it to them as liberation
So it seems it’s absolutely fine for one ‘side’ in this to hurl abuse, insults and extremely offensive insinuations around, yet the moment others point out their hypocrisy, narrow mindedness and bullshit, get all pissy. Kind of sums up neoliberals really.
The ironing....
The Blairite idea of creating a much larger ‘middle class’, similar to the US definition rather than drawing form traditional British concepts of ‘class’, depends on maintaining an ‘underclass’ who can still be relied upon to do all the shit jobs the ‘milieu nouveau’ don’t want to, because they are above the ‘common herd’.
Odd seeing as the underclass are the ones who don't do boring things like jobs with tax and NI. If they did they'd be working class....
Odd seeing as the underclass are the ones who don’t do boring things like jobs
This class stuff is really boring. One of the reasons I struggle with socialism (and politics in general) is its obsession with class, and the work ethic that comes with it. What matters is the opportunity for people to live the lives they want to free of constraints like who their parents are or how much money they’ve inherited, or whether they even want to work or their ability to do so. ‘Work’ should be something we do willingly because we want to, not because we have to.
Here, here.
& even we, the all knowing forum, are still going on about anti-Semitism. Talk about being conditioned.
& even we, the all knowing forum
hilarious
The vile hypocritical Hodge / Watson up to good old tricks again - calling out those within the party as undermining democracy!
You can't make it up.
These pair did so much damage, and still they don't shut up.
Don't you just love a battle with the trade unions? 'cos that makes sense at this point.
These absolute ****ing morons will never be happy. She should have been booted ages ago.
But there's no war from the right of the Labour party.
Ah yes Margaret Hodge, the favourite Labour MP of the BNP.
Cummings hands the Government its arse. Everyone quickly forgets.
https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1400749359172620288?s=19
50% by August.
A lot of what Cummings had to say about the handling of the pandemic will help Johnson, not damage him. Many people inclined to support him want to hear about the PM fighting against the do-gooder scientists in the weighing up of public health and personal "freedom".
