Thats a completely separate discussion
The fact that it's a completely separate discussion doesn't mean that it's not an interesting question.
Aren't you interested in interesting questions binners?
If you want to discuss it then start a thread 'Is Priti Patel a racist?'
I'm sure its presently a hot topic on Twitter
But the topic we're presently on here is 'is Howard Beckett an idiot?'
To which the answer is a resounding yes
He's managed to overshadow an absolutely brilliant thing that happened in Glasgow yesterday and somewhat unbelievably handed the narrative to the Tory Party. Absolute idiocy!
But the topic we’re presently on here is ‘is Howard Beckett an idiot?’
Actually it isn't. You know damn well that the topic is whether it is racist, or could be seen to be racist, to call for someone's deportation.
I pointed out that Patel is clearly responsible for deportations and reasonably asked if that made her a racist.
I'll remind you that Patel is a vital character in this story.
I have no idea who Howard Beckett is. Given I'm a somewhat obsessive watcher of politics (I have no idea why tbh) I don't think the labour party has much to worry about.
Actually it isn’t. You know damn well that the topic is whether it is racist, or could be seen to be racist, to call for someone’s deportation.
He is clearly an idiot and maybe a racist. I am not racist and it would never cross my mind to suggest someone should be deported, whatever they did or said so makes you think eh?
Is Patel a racist. Most probably, as are most of the tory party probably are. The evidence in how races have been/are being treated is all there.
and it would never cross my mind to suggest someone should be deported
Why ever not? You think all deportations should be banned?
You know damn well that the topic is whether it is racist, or could be seen to be racist, to call for someone’s deportation. I’ll remind you that Patel is a vital character in this story.
When someone makes the comment that a British woman of Indian heritage should be deported and given that Priti Patel is as English as I am, where to? That falls (to me at least) into casual racism. Now, I understand that what he meant was that she deports a bunch of folk, and that in his opinion she should go instead. Any one with half a brain would look at the tweet he wrote, and say "Y'know, that's not a great look", and delete it. But he didn't. and as he's in a public role, he can't be surprised to get some push back that that decision.
dumb with a side helping of ****wittery (oops, apologies)
TBH I don't know what the fuss is about. If I'm brutally honest I think far worse things should be done to Patel than deporting her. (that was sort of a joke btw, before I get reported again)
he’s in a public role, he can’t be surprised to get some push back that that decision.
dumb with a side helping of ****wittery (oops, apologies)
It will be interesting to see how well Beckett does in the Unite leadership elections.
Personally I think it is precisely this sort of hypersensitive woke fuss which alienates so many once traditional Labour voters.
Getting suspended from a Labour Party led by Keir Starmer might have actually increased his credibility among Unite members.
this sort of hypersensitive woke fuss
I wonder what the 63,000* BAME members of Unite feel about casual racism being described as hypersensitive woke fuss? I mean presumably some of those people are Labour supporters to, I wonder if comments such as Beckett's makes them feel alienated?
*Race Forward, tackling racism in the workplace
Well Nick it's your interpretation that it was "casual racism". My point was that it will be interesting to see whether Unite members see Beckett as a "casual racist".
What was that comment you made yesterday about someone, who was clearly getting very hypersensitive, having a piece of coal up their arse? It was you wasn't it?
Yes, it will be interesting, There's many BAME folk in Unite but I think only 6% of it's total membership, so I don't think it'll have much bearing on the outcome, unless more members feel his comments were inappropriate.
Of course his comment was inappropriate. Hence him deleting it and apologising.
Personally I think it is precisely this sort of hypersensitive woke fuss which alienates so many once traditional Labour voters.
Oh, FFS. He admits himself it was out of order, but still you defend the mistake, and label the reaction to it as "woke". Why? If this had been someone in the Conservative movement calling for Sadiq Khan to be deported, would you want people to just shrug? He's explained himself, and should now have his suspension rescinded, in my opinion. But his original comment was a mistake, and in today's fast news cycle couldn't just be ignored and dealt with later at leisure.
https://twitter.com/RachelReevesMP/status/1393105695449493507?s=20
Strong macro-economic opportunity - learning from Biden's big stimulus? You don't say. I'm sure folk on here said voters don't care about such things.
https://twitter.com/David__Osland/status/1393138034950934528?s=20
I’m surprised that Beckett didn’t just go the whole hog and call Patel a coconut, a KKK member or an Uncle Tom - other lefty types including Labour MPs seem to think that’s perfectly ok based on what the various BAME conservative MPs have repeatedly received care of social media.
He’s suspended him for being an idiot.
He spends all his time suspending members of the Labour party. If only he could call for various resignations in the Tories for doing far far worse.
I'd just like to point out that I don't have an ass. I also don't own a horse, donkey or even a mule. Just to make that clear. I did however use some Zebra crossings yesterday (on my way to a beigel bakery; make of that what you will), and I thought 'here we have black and white, in perfect unity, guiding us safely'. Fantastic.
....but still you defend the mistake, and label the reaction to it as “woke”. Why?
That's a very good question Kelvin and if I'm honest I don't really know the answer.
But I do know that one of the things which over the years has slowly but surely alienated ordinary working people from the Labour Party is the endless lecturing they have endured concerning what they are and not allowed to say.
When they are severely castigated by sanctimonious middle class liberals and told you mustn't say "coloured people" (which they often consider to be polite) it is a racist, only a racist would use that term, you must instead say "people of colour", which proves that you aren't racist, they think what a load of bollocks.
And they are right of course, it is a complete load of bollocks, of course it is. But why I should try and make that point on stw, or challenge the constant allegations of "casual racism", when it is so overwhelmingly obvious that it is pointless, I don't really know.
Btw your reference to Sadiq Khan was pretty daft, he isn't responsible for deporting refugees.
I’ve only heard that in the context of American politics. I’ve never heard a Labour MP having a go at anyone about that choice of language. I have heard Labour MPs complaining about the term “BAME” quite a lot though.
Still, Starmer… guilty when he acts quickly, guilty when he acts too slowly, guilty if he doesn’t act at all… being Labour leader might be the worst job in politics right now. Not that it hasn’t been for at least 10 years now.
your reference to Sadiq Khan was pretty daft
I choose him as he is currently the highest profile Labour MP born in Britain but subjected to language suggesting he’s a “foreigner”. You're quite right that he not only isn’t responsible for deportations, but actively campaigns against their misuse by the Home Office.
But I do know that one of the things which over the years has slowly but surely alienated ordinary working people from the Labour Party is the endless lecturing they have endured concerning what they are and not allowed to say.
For me, I think it's a generational thing not necessarily a class thing . My dad (not working class; officer in the armed forces) is continually frustrated by what he perceives as a narrowing of what is acceptable speech by the following generation (me, other Gen X'ers and our children). I think he understands that there are things he can't say anymore that were common speech 30-40 years ago My partner is Canadian and her parents (same generation as my Dad) say the same things. So I don't think it's a issue that's particular to the Labour Party, I think Baby-Boomers, with their legacy of hard won freedoms and civil rights resent being lectured at by people that they think should perhaps hold them in higher regard.
Interesting point Nick. Yup I guess older people up the social ladder must also get frustrated about what they can and can't say, think the Major in Faulty Towers.
The thing is that these people are far less likely to be Labour Party voters, being lectured by lefty liberals is much less likely to change the way they vote.
And to compound the problem for working class people they often speak grammatically incorrectly and use inappropriate and incorrect words. Partly because of a lower standard of education and party because they don't really give a monkeys.
being lectured by lefty liberals is much less likely to change the way they vote.
Good point.
And they are right of course, it is a complete load of bollocks, of course it is.
There's myriad reasons why particular use of language isn't 'a complete load of bollocks', many of them relating to times when racism was rife, when the views and opinions of people of colour were never considered. If you really cannot understand the difference between 'coloured people', and 'people of colour', as descriptive terms, then I suggest you read up on the matter. It is an extremely complex and nuanced issue, certainly not one that can be dismissed as 'a complete load of bollocks'.
Of course, the term 'people of colour', like'BAME', is not without its own controversy and opposition.
I always think it's best to listen to the subjects of such debate, and ask what they prefer to be called. With respect to all on here, this might not quite be the best place to find such informed and enlightened people. Some people on here clearly don't know their arse from an ass, for example. 😉
I’ve never heard a Labour MP having a go at anyone about that choice of language
Like Sadiq Khan, I'm not a Labour MP, but I think binners had a go at me recently for saying "coloured people".
If you really cannot understand the difference between ‘coloured people’, and ‘people of colour’, as descriptive terms, then I suggest you read up on the matter. It is an extremely complex and nuanced issue, certainly not one that can be dismissed as ‘a complete load of bollocks’.
Bridges, seriously man, have you heard yourself? And we wonder why the working class have lost their connection with the left/labour party?!
Binners isn't a Labour MP either. What I'm getting at, much as I think Nick is, that people who are 'upset' about their language being policed may well be blaming Labour... but it's nothing to do with Labour really at all. And isn't really anything to do with Starmer either.
Oh, yeah, slip up, sorry... Khan hasn't been an MP for a long time... I should have said highest profile Labour politician.
Like Sadiq Khan, I’m not a Labour MP, but I think binners had a go at me recently for saying “coloured people”.
Oh come off it. This isn't some dilemma about how to correctly refer to someone who self-identifies as a hermaphrodite?
Without getting all 'Bridges' about it, surely this is day one of how not to sound like a racist school? That term hasn't been acceptable for decades
Without getting all ‘Bridges’ about it,
I take that as a compliment. Good to know I've made some sort of impact.
Bridges, seriously man, have you heard yourself?
Yes, and so have you, by the looks of things. Which is good. As I'm not a Labour member, voter or supporter, I can say what I like. If you don't like it, that really is your problem, not mine.
This isn’t some dilemma about how to correctly refer to someone who self-identifies as a hermaphrodite?
Oh god don't get me started. My teenage daughters (and their mum) think I'm a reactionary TERF from the dark ages because I don't have a problem with gender specific toilets and refuse to use the correct gender neutral pronouns or say 'those who identify as a woman' rather than simply 'women'. It's a minefield. I'm nearly 50 FFS, how am I supposed to understand all this millenial/Gen-Z first world problem stuff?
Boomer.
I can say what I like. If you don’t like it, that really is your problem, not mine.
Erm, you do remember that you were telling people what terminology they could and couldn't use?
To be fair to bridges, I challenged his use of a term as well. We've all probably done it. Still nothing to do with Labour, or Starmer.
Without getting all ‘Bridges’ about it, surely this is day one of how not to sound like a racist school? That term hasn’t been acceptable for decades
Dunno, mate, I've just not thought about it that much. I've spent too much time living and working with darkies so I don't have your finely tuned antennae for these things.
I always think it’s best to listen to the subjects of such debate, and ask what they prefer to be called.
Do they all get together and have a vote on what they prefer to be called. Guess there is no chance even they could not all agree.
And once any sort of agreement is made then who is educating everyone on the new acceptable words?
Tricky isn't it.
I’m nearly 50 FFS, how am I supposed to understand all this millenial/Gen-Z first world problem stuff?
You don't, you just address people how they prefer to be addressed out of niceness.
Tricky isn’t it.
I’ve never found it tricky. I dunno,
I grew up in a country with little or no people of colour at all. Racist language was quite normal. I always had the feeling it wasn’t right but to be honest, it wasn’t really something I had to think about much. Having moved here at the tail end of the IRA “mainland” (ha, “mainland”...ain’t that hilarious...Brits eh?) bombing campaign and then experiencing some open and not so open bigotry, it kind of tunes one in to how powerful language can be and how it can be hurtful and offensive. And also to recognise it. It’s really not difficult to attune oneself to a changing moral zeitgeist, or at least it’s never been to me. You just kinda go with it or like some here, you just get sand in your fanny because you have to think about the words you use sometimes.
Welsh Government to run a pilot for UBI.
You don’t, you just address people how they prefer to be addressed out of niceness.
This. From a generation that constantly tells mine and younger "in my day people respected each other" I sometimes wish they did the same. How someone identifies themselves has zero impact on your life apart from a mild awkwardness just deal with it if someone wants to be called a them or they.
It boggles my mind that some people (no matter the generation) fail to see thinking has moved on and perhaps defining someone / group by a single trait or characteristic could be offensive. If we didn't challenge the way we think people would still think the world was flat
Welsh Government to run a pilot for UBI.
This is actually huge and that "levelling up" actually looks like.
It can be handy to get all the linguistics correct as it make you seem progressively liberal. The most right-on sanitised language I've heard was from Americans who, if you then went on to talk about poverty and inequality, had eyes that instantly glazed over. Perspectives and ideologies are inconsistent and people might use inappropriate terms but getting all twisted up about that may just be another form of the middle class violence or a cover for some pretty nasty politics or both: yep, we support your right to bomb these women and children to bits but don't whatever you do call them 'darkies'. You do wonder how many of these dictionary didactics would have turned out on Cable Street or squared up to the NF?
The main thing is they haven't offended Priti, so that's all right then.
I saw on twitter some graffiti saying "Deport Theresa May"
And once any sort of agreement is made then who is educating everyone on the new acceptable words?
I think that's a lesson on day one of virtue-signalling school.
Welsh Government to run a pilot for UBI
Having absented myself from this thread for my own benefit, I came here specifically to post this.
Labour signalling for the future?
I know they're a way off from actually implementing it, but it's good news, as far as I'm concerned
