Corruption is what will bring Johnson down, if anything does. I think he’ll ride over it just fine… but if Labour MPs weren’t challenging where the PM was getting his money, they’d be accused of “not opposing”, wouldn’t they?
It's so depressing watching Starmer though, he had zero conviction in the questions he was putting to Johnson just now, it's like he's just going through the motions.
Starmer got Johnson to lie to parliament & then reminded him that doing so is a resigning offence under ministerial code
Johnsons prepared rant about not asking about things that matter was well done
But Starmer knows that he's caught out Johnson & bozo knows it too
Maybe I'd better watch to the end ;o)
it’s like he’s just going through the motions
He asks questions as if they are never going to be answered by the PM, and as if he just wants them on the record for future reference. It's both a reflection of reality, as well as uninspiring. Johnson is so good at sucking the energy out of any attack. Those on the record exchanges will be built on, and referred to, in future though. It's as if Starmer is making a case against an evasive defendant in a very long court case. I doubt the public will pay enough attention to any final verdict, but not sure what else he can try. Get shouty? That won't work either. I hope he can get some things to stick, in the mind of the public rather than those following closely. We'll see... but I fear "lying to parliament" won't lose Johnson a single voter.
Corruption is what will bring Johnson down, if anything does. I think he’ll ride over it just fine… but if Labour MPs weren’t challenging where the PM was getting his money, they’d be accused of “not opposing”, wouldn’t they?
Maybe. This could be the beginning of the end of something.
Still think the corruption debate here is narrow minded.
They didn't really challenge much when it actually counted. Seems to be John Lewis is part of the debate...
They got Al Capone on tax evasion. In this sort of case the ‘how’ does not matter.
How matters when you're one of the actual victims of Tory ideology.
Not curtains.
Still think the corruption debate here is narrow minded.
If you mean that the decorating stuff is "small fry" compared to the bigger corruptions at play, then I agree. But it's something where there are rules that can be shown to have been broken... and something where "we had to act fast, because, Covid" can't be used to defend ignoring experienced reputable companies in favour of new companies set up by donors and contacts of MPs. But, most importantly, Johnson can't just deflect it onto other ministers and civil servants... this one is all down to him and his decisions and actions.
He’s backed or backing Johnson into a corner on every issue, just like you’d expect a skilled advocate to do. It works for me, but I detest Johnson anyway. Whether it’ll work for the wider public, I dunno, I’m not confident.
Starmer wisely wants discussion to avoid brexit & vaccine rollout
Johnsons arrogance is his weakness
It's like the MPs expenses affair - that sort of small petty stuff against the large scale attributes of policy that kills thousands seems to resonate more with the electorate.
It's a very local thing for folk to not understand or care about the scale of political decisions rather than a few quid down the back of a settee.
Possibly the root to lots of societal issues.
He’s backed or backing Johnson into a corner on every issue, just like you’d expect a skilled advocate to do. It works for me, but I detest Johnson anyway. Whether it’ll work for the wider public, I dunno, I’m not confident.
Well my Tory MP has already managed to extract a piece where that didn't happen.
Editing is king.
If you mean that the decorating stuff is “small fry” compared to the bigger corruptions at play, then I agree. But it’s something where there are rules that can be shown to have been broken… and something where “we had to act fast, because, Covid” can’t be used to defend ignoring experienced reputable companies in favour of new companies set up by donors and contacts of MPs.
For sure the petty corruption doesn't play well with old-gen Tories. They remember John Major.
But I think the electorate will have forgotten by the time the elections come. Interesting timing though.
But I think the electorate will have forgotten by the time the elections come.
I agree. But it's not unreasonable to expect more chances like this in the coming years... and they could all build on each other to create a "feeling" about Johnson and his party, even when the details of this and other uncovered corruptions are forgotten by us all. Unlike some others, I think there is no chance of the decorating money, and the attempts to cover up or explain it away, being some kind of silver bullet that unseats Johnson from his long sought after throne... but it could be the start of some real damage. Frustratingly, the more important stuff done during the pandemic just won't be hitting home with Johnson's "fan base". I'm not saying it shouldn't be uncovered and pointed out by Labour, and others, but the "time of crisis" and "stop talking Britain down" defences are going nowhere.
How matters when you’re one of the actual victims of Tory ideology.
Not curtains.
Then you'll never get anywhere with crooks like the 'modern' conservative party. 🤷♂️
All this tit for tat over the flat refurb with what we have really going on around us is utterly repugnant.
Yup just makes Labour look petty and stupid frankly, when they made far less fuss about the far more serious corruption. I detest this government but I cringe whenever I hear a statement from Labour trying to criticise them.
🤷🏻♂️
So, which 2017 policies have been dumped?
Any of those which cross-reference with his leadership pledges. At first glance: a tax increase for top earners, a commitment to public ownership and abolition of tuition fees.
As Kelvin hasn't acknowledged my response, can anyone else shed some light on what Labour's policies actually are? In an interview with the Guardian last year, Starmer rowed back from his manifesto pledges ("the slate has been wiped pretty clean") so what else is there?
I've changed my mind. This thread is depressing. What it needs is some theme music, and I can't think of anything more appropriate than this... 😄
(apologies but I'm alway on the hunt for opportunities to post Conflict songs places)
That takes me back, old enough to have had a Conflict record on Vinyl.
Here you go. Very applicable to this place
😀
https://twitter.com/LeftieStats/status/1387505102798344197?s=19
Corruption bounce.
(I know I know. Maybe something should filter through next time. Although let's not forget the Tories have been corrupt for years.)
It would be a mistake to assume that allegations of corruption will necessarily have a negative impact for Johnson.
In the late 1980s political control of Westminster Council was in the balance. The Tories had a majority of only 4 and with the falling popularity of Thatcher it looked highly possible that Labour would win control.
So the Tories embarked on a highly illegal and corrupt gerrymandering exercise - probably the most serious political corruption of modern times.
However by 1989 the District Auditor had been brought in and scale of the corruption had been publicly exposed.
The perceived wisdom at the time was that this now publicly exposed corruption scandal would, without doubt, tilt Westminster Council in Labour's favour.
What actually happened was that not only did the Tories hold on to Westminster in the 1990 council elections, but they won by a landslide, increasing their majority from 4 to 38.
It turned out that voters were really not bothered that the Tories in Westminster were seriously corrupt.
As much as you'd like him to stop attacking Johnson on corruption Rone its his only in at the moment and as vaccine rollout completes & we open up fully he will have an even bigger hill to climb- so exposing Johnsons corruption is about all he can do at the moment
Indeed the left of Labour are silent on what or who the alternatives are to Johnsons popularity
Good analysis here
He's not won back red wall voters that corbyn lost
But since Dec he has lost remain voters he had picked up
Indeed the left of Labour are silent on what or who the alternatives are to Johnsons popularity
Take a leaf out of Biden's book who is actively engaging Sanders.
Hence the stimulus and climate stuff.
Biden has done that post election victory. He was very much seen as middle of the road veering right during the nomination process, indeed that is what would have won over wavering Republicans... I know the left don't like it but Labour need to appear to be centrist then enact left leaning policies once they have secured power.
There's actually quite a lot of evidence that the electorate don't like "centrist" policies.
Did Gordon Brown fail to remain prime minister because he was seen as too far left? Did Ed Miliband lose in 2015 because he was arguing for radical left wing policies? Did Nick Clegg turn the LibDems into a political irrelevance because he didn't pursue centrist policies?
The Tory Party are not a centrist party, it doesn't seem to put voters off.
And as far as I'm aware every Labour government there has ever been elected has swung to the right once power has been secured. The Labour government that swings to the left after winning an election will be a long time coming.
Piss poor.
Of course it is, I get the impression that had this been Corbyn, you'd be slapping your thighs.
Of course it is, I get the impression that had this been Corbyn, you’d be slapping your thighs.
Not really.
I can't imagine Corbyn messing around for the sake of a ****y PR joke in the wake of a pandemic.
False equivalence.
Biden has done that post election victory. He was very much seen as middle of the road veering right during the nomination process,
If you haven't noticed Starmer is not gaining any traction to become electable.
The evidence for lack of appeal to centrist policies lies in grave with the Lib-dems and Change UK.
Front pages of all the papers pretty much in pro-government propaganda mode, no one cares Johnson is corrupt. 🙁
I had noticed that Starmer is struggling thanks.
But that is how Biden secured the Whitehouse.
Unfortunately it looks like Labour need to find a salesman to reinvigorate the party in the eyes of the electorate. I don't think Starmer is a bad leader in fact given the chance I think he'd be great.
Sadly political discourse appears to be ****ed in the UK and we had better hope the populist nonsense is seen through by the voters before we end up doing something even more stupid than the preceeding ten years...
Anyway that's enough politics from me, life's shit enough as it is to dwell on this at the moment.
But that is how Biden secured the Whitehouse
You keep saying that but where is the evidence that Biden secured the US presidency by winning over wavering republicans, as you put it, with "centrist" policies?
Using your logic Trump won the 2016 presidential election by offering centrist policies in contrast to Hilary Clinton's presumably radical policies.
What appears to have happened in 2016 was that many Democrats simply found it impossible to vote for Hillary Clinton. Partly because of the way that Bernie Sanders was stitched up by the Democrat Party establishment. And partly because she was seen as exceptionally right-wing by many Democrats.
In contrast Trump energised Republican voters who were both happy and willing to vote for him.
What happened in 2020 wasn't that Biden won over Republican voters, Trump actually got an extra 11 million votes in 2020 compared to what he received in 2016, but because Democrat voters went out and voted Democrat.
Partly because they couldn't stomach another 4 years of Trump. And partly because Joe Biden wasn't Hilary Clinton.
Voter turnout in the 2020 presidential election was the highest in 120 years.
I can’t imagine Corbyn messing around for the sake of a **** PR joke
Q: Can you remember who drove through a fake wall in a digger during the election? I'll bet you do don't you?
Q: Is the man who dove through the fake wall in a digger A. The Prime Minister, or B. the Leader of the Opposition?
bonus Q: Is the politician who didn't drive through a wall on a digger; A. The Prime Minister, B. The leader of the opposition. or C. A complete and utter irrelevance?
You're right though, Johnson was willing to do irreverent and foolish things in order to get elected, and people like that, they like the idea that their leaders are prepared to make themselves look silly, it shows they're regular people, and Corbyn wasn't ever prepared to do anything like that, he would never have allowed himself to be made fun off. Starmer made a wee joke at Johnson's expense, that's it.
I can’t even follow Earnie’s tortured logical fallacies well enough to form a response.
Still don’t consider Starmer a centrist… but if that’s what Biden is/was, not so sure I’m against it. The Democrats are an uneasy coalition that held together long enough to win elections and get things done. I wouldn’t mind a bit of that here.
Wallpaper!
I’ll be surprised if that poll doesn’t turn out to be a blip. I think, as a cycling forum, we forget that Johnson jumping on the Super League stuff appeals to, and cuts through with, way more people than Johnson letting tens of thousands of people die, and saying in advance that was acceptable to him rather than be seen as the killjoy who called a lockdown when it was needed… or taking money with one hand for expensive pointless baubles, and handing out government contracts to those that bribed helped him with the other. Longer term though… all the lying and corruption might come to matter for more of the public, but not right now. And I doubt this year. Vaccines.
Pub?
I’ll be surprised if that poll doesn’t turn out to be a blip.
Sadly I agree, tho the ipsosmori poll a few days ago was similar
I think, as a cycling forum, we forget that Johnson jumping on the Super League stuff appeals to,
Which in itself could do with more investigation. Seems somewhat coincidental that the Man U chief met with Johnsons chief of staff the week before and that he fell on his sword after it all collapsed.
Sadly I agree, tho the ipsosmori poll a few days ago was similar
Survation is one pretty reliable pollster though, historically it has predicted election results better than most I believe. I think it is probably premature to assume that looking at wallpaper in John Lewis is the reason for the narrowing of the Tory lead - the survey was concluded on the day the story broke.
I can’t even follow Earnie’s tortured logical fallacies well enough to form a response.
Nice tactic. It absolves you from the need to explain your alternative point of veiw whilst making clear that you disagree.
Which of course is a tactic that Starmer would approve of.
Unfortunately it looks like Labour need to find a salesman to reinvigorate the party in the eyes of the electorate. I don’t think Starmer is a bad leader in fact given the chance I think he’d be great.
Which is what I have been saying of years
1. Do anything it takes to get into power (leader popularity/likability is a major factor)
2. Once in power do all the 'politics' stuff that those that voted for you are not actually interested in but that won't matter as they will still think the leader is great
That is why it is important for Starmer to pursue Johnson for his dodgy stuff as if Johnson ever had to resign the Tory party would start to struggle with point 1.
