Except, you sort of did. As I said; easy mistake to make. But at least now, you know. And can move on , having learned something. Hopefully. Try not to get too drunk.
having learned something
I feel that I’ve learnt a lot about you.
Hour and half to go…
I feel that I’ve learnt a lot about you.
Well, then your time on here hasn't been a complete waste, after all! 😀
"Now is not the time to celebrate Ramadan "
There was a Labour iftar last night (well, lots of local ones, but one "national" one that Starmer attended). Celebrations come at the end of Ramadam.
One hour to go...
When things are proper open, I want a tour of… Track, Cloudwater and Squawk
Been to cloudwater/track many times. Highly recommended. Also now there's the beatnix brewery just north of Victoria station (and the Pilcrow just south).
Never heard of Beatnix... will hunt out some beer for home delivery in lieu of being free to enjoy MCR drinking again. Thanks.
Beatnix beer ordered (they have some promising looking cans reduced)... retiring to the garden with some goodies from Cloudwater now. Play safe.
Chomsky speaks..
“It’s a good strategy if you want to turn the Labour Party into a junior partner of the Tories. Pretty much like what Tony Blair did, it used to be called Thatcher light. If that’s what you want, fine. If you want a Labour Party that actually represents the working people of England, middle-class people of England, pursue their interests, it’s not the way to do it. It depends on what your goals are. It looks to me that Starmer’s is pretty much dismantling the activist Labour Party that the Corbyn people were trying to develop.”
Chomsky still on the money at 90 odd.
Thanks for that. He's given very air-space on major outlets.
This article needs dangling under James O'Brien and Ian Dunt's big faces.
Always worth reading Chomsky.
“If Corbyn had been elected, Britain would be pursuing a much more sane course”
Absolutely, but that's a huge if, isn't it. His points about activists being key to Biden's policies is a good one. His "Thatcher Light" comment about Blair's government is also true, and depending how you measure it can be applied to all his successors... no leader since Thatcher, in any party, has proposed undoing everything she did... but nor have any avoided taking or proposing measures to counter correct the path she set the UK on. As for "undoing" Corbyn's project of making the Labour Party an activist party... there's some truth in that... the public don't want to elect a party that is "just" an activist party. Keeping that activist spirit, and the ideas that flow from it, while also widening the appeal of the party for when voters choose their MPs/government is the big ask with the big barriers to overcome. Not going well that, is it. We can argue for pages about why that is, but I still think that the problems don't just lie with Starmer and his core team, far from it.
I've got the book he did with Robert Pollin about the green new deal. This article was a good reminder to read it. 🙂
As for “undoing” Corbyn’s project of making the Labour Party and activist party… there’s some truth in that… the public don’t want to elect a party that is “just” an activist party.
The whole point of an acitivist, democratic party is that they better represent the views and concerns of the people they seek to represent. I really don't agree that the public don't want that. In pretty much every survey or piece of research 'the public' say they are dissatisfied with how politicians represent them (or rather how they don't) and how accountable they are. The key to solving the problem of political corruption is more grassroots activism, involvement, and engagement with the public. Starmer with his tory voting red wall focus groups is doing exactly the opposite.
I used the word "just" very deliberately. Many people for whom it would very much be in their own interests to vote Labour, and who agree with many of their key policies, still don't want them in government, party because they do see it being a party of "grass roots activists"* for a range of causes... not a team of politicians ready to run the country for them.
*you and I might mean that to mean anyone and everyone that wants "change", but for many voters this is the "head in the clouds never had to really work hard for a living politically correct idealistic anoraks, who can't relate to us, and whom we simply do not like".
In pretty much every survey or piece of research ‘the public’ say they are dissatisfied with how politicians represent them (or rather how they don’t) and how accountable they are
Sure, but pointing out that people aren't happy with politicians doesn't help. For everyone worried that politicians aren't doing enough for immigrants, there's another complaining that immigrants aren't being fed to the pigs. Labour "activism" isn't what a good percentage of the (Tory voting) people want is it? They had a chance to vote for that, and they rejected it. So now what?
In pretty much every survey or piece of research ‘the public’ say they are dissatisfied with how politicians represent them (or rather how they don’t) and how accountable they are.
Yet we have a lying, corrupt, self-serving charlatan as PM and 'the public' don't seem that bothered what he gets up to, judging by his approval ratings
The key to solving the problem of political corruption is more grassroots activism, involvement, and engagement with the public
I don't know how you come to that conclusion. It might well be the opposite. I'd say that at local level, corruption and nepotism is at least as bad and probably worse than at national level.
Hows Liverpool looking at the moment? Rotton to the core with cronyism and dodgy backhanders for contracts from the supposedly 'lefty' council.
And did you not hear what we were talking about last night outside the pub? All the electric charging points being fitted by Salford council to houses most of whom don't own cars, let alone electric ones. Another massive backhander for someone at the council for signing off that one too.
Best not ask too many questions about 'red' Len, Unison and the ever expanding bill for the the white elephant conference centre and if any relatives were given multi-million pound construction contracts
They had a chance to vote for that, and they rejected it. So now what?
Well lets not forget that in 2017 the reactionaries in the labour bureaucracy actively obstructed and worked against their own party, and now they are the ones in control. What should happen next is what should have happened then, which is the expulsion of anyone working against the party's mission, and then a huge effort from Starmer - as promised - to bring together the different sides of the party. If the problem was *just* Corbyn and his 'cabal', as many claim, then that's solved, and it should be an easy task. He's not doing that though is he? He's pursuing a scorched earth policy which is focused less on electoral success, and more on maintaining their grip on the party.
He’s pursuing a scorched earth policy which is focused less on electoral success, and more on maintaining their grip on the party.
Well, thats one interpretation. Others are available, outside the bunker
🙂
more on maintaining their grip on the party.
Sounds familiar. But that doesn't answer my question, what now? the Voters don't want Labour activism, they rejected it didn't they. They handed Labour their biggest electoral defeat ever. So Starmer should offer more, bigger, better activism? How's that going to work then?
All the electric charging points being fitted by Salford council to houses most of whom don’t own cars
Yeah but that's not a result of a failure of grassroots politics. Its the result of diktats handed to local councils from national government, along with funding, in some grand virtue signalling box-ticking exercise. In any case I'm not defending local councils, I've worked in one and have seen first hand how they operate. The problem in local councils is the same as national politics, which is a lack of accountability and engagemeent with the public. They get away with their incompetence because no one knows about it or has the abiilty to challenge it.
Chinook!
It would be a mistake to imagine that voter's views don't change between elections. The opportunity is there to persuade and share aligned interests, support pay claims and strikes, speak up for the majority. I can't see it happening. If anything, the reverse. I've never really come across Labour 'activists', they just seemed to dish out the leaflets at election time and hope that will make a difference.
Legally enforced racist policies are apartheid. If you 'unconditionally' support an apartheid state then there's a lot of voters that will be switched off by that. As it happens, some millions of traditional Butler and Stokes-type LP voters.
So Starmer should offer more, bigger, better activism?
He should do what he promised in his leadership campaign. Build on the popularity of the 2017 and 2019 policies and form a coalition across the party between activists and MPs who are united behind those policies. As far as I can see he's yet to start on that.
It would be a mistake to imagine that voter’s views don’t change between elections.
You are right, they tend to get more right wing. The voting population is aging and the younger, more likely to vote anything but tory, are not voting.
As far as I can see he’s yet to start on that.
agreed. Perhaps he's read the tealeaves and realised Labour need to be something else to get voted in.
Build on the popularity of the 2017 and 2019 policies
The 'popularity' that lost 2 elections, the second by an absolutely huge margin?
the second by an absolutely huge margin
Oh come on even you have to admit that there were some very specific non-policy things going on in 2019 as well as it being focused on one specific policy which was the brainchild of the current leader.
I think the 2017 manifesto was broadly much more popular than the few that preceded it. When it was leaked, Labour support ticked up significantly IIRC.
Did no one else see the chinook?
Polls showed the 2017 policies were popular anyway:
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/poll-shows-people-love-labours-10404216
Did no one else see the chinook?
didn't hear it. Did hear the two Apaches that came over a couple of nights ago, and scared the bejeesus out of me though. Damn those things are loud as ****
So the Labour party leader officially supports a recognised apartheid state - cool. I remember when it was just the right that did that.
We nearly did a whole day without any nudge nudge posts about Israel. We were so close...
Go on then Grum... what do you mean by "officially supports"...?
There was a report came out today about HRW now designating Israel as operating under their definition of apartheid, you think it's not relevant?
He has said he supports Zionism 'without qualification'.
And how does this relate to Starmer? In what way does he "officially support" what?
EDIT: as you added your post...
He has said he supports Zionism ‘without qualification’.
You mean he supports the existence of the state of Israel? Or is there something else you want to share... feel free to use links and actual quotes...
He has said he supports Zionism ‘without qualification’. As I'm sure you knew already.
Are we now at the point where you're 'not allowed' to point out that the leader of a supposedly egalitarian socialist party is a supporter of a racist state.
He was also heavily financially backed by pro Israeli lobbyists, something he chose to keep secret until after the leadership election. This isn't anti-Semitic conspiracy theory it's just a fact.
Or that he employed a former Israeli intelligence officer from a unit known for blackmailing Palestinians to run his social media strategy.
I'm torn between not caring about your obsession with Israeli in this thread... and wanting scream at you for being such a useful example of the UK Left's problems... but carry on.
Ok cool you don't care. Did you say the same about S Africa in the 80s?
for being such a useful example of the UK Left’s problems…
For many people on the left supporting apartheid is kind of a major no no. And we are the problem? Right.
Did you say the same about S Africa in the 80s?
No. And I care deeply about the horrors being done by an expansionist Israeli regime. Get this subject the **** away from this thread though, please. I'd be most grateful.
It's highly relevant to Starmer's credibility for many people and you aren't in charge of this thread, so er no...
It's not that Israel is a massive issue, but all of the above severely calls into question his integrity.
Subjects that are at the very forefront of absolutely everyones mind, pretty much all the time:
1. Iraq
2. Israel
Thats it. Everything else is irrelevant and merely serves to distract us all from these critical issues. Thats what they want, you see. They probably started a pandemic as a smokescreen
TBF Kelvin Starmer has made his support for Israel something of a central feature of his leadership.
Yes binners we know your interest in politics only extends as far as the affordability of a Greggs. Well done you.
