Ever since then Starmer has been treated as the enemy, rather than someone to work with.
Oh come on, Starmer courted the left's vote but turned his back soon enough. If people are treating him unfavourably then perhaps it's because they don't like being used.
The difference between Starmer and the part of the Labour party that dislike him is that he has a better idea of what needs to be done to win an election and doesn't hold onto things and ideas that won't help that.
It falls apart because he is not the right person to win an election and he probably doesn't realise that or won't give up the role. The same as Corbyn really who did okay at the start and got new people interested but then clung on when it was clear he should have passed it to someone else within a year as he was never going to be good from an election point of view after that.
It looks like the anti-lockdown anger and the ‘Covid is just seasonal flu’ ‘debate’ just coalesced and settled around Starmer at a pub in Bath.
Thanks to the plucky landlord, Keir Starmer and Labour have come to represent not only the Tories handling of the pandemic but also the cause of UK’s plummeting economy.
Boris must be enjoying a pint somewhere.
Mate, much as I love you, you don’t half talk some shite
But you said pretty much the same yourself when correctly raising the issue of the tories nicking labour policies. If as you say all you want is a less cut-throat type of capitalism, then what does it matter if it's the tories or labour implementing 'labour' policies? It doesn't matter because there's no real difference between the parties.
Its all explained here…
Have a read...
It doesn’t matter because there’s no real difference between the parties.
This isn't true. Why don't you just go and join the Tories?
[ not really, just please go and work out who really doesn't give a shit about you and yours ]
Can I raise a point of order?
Oh dear...
Did those blokes who hijacked the airliners and flew them into the World Trade Centre and the Pentagon, killing thousands of people, share any responsibility for this? Or was it entirely Tony Blairs fault?
So, the 'all Muslims are terrorists' trope. Great. Thanks for reinforcing my point that Blair's actions led to the demonisation of Islam and Muslims across the UK, emboldened the far-right and all manner of deluded nutjobs, saw the increase in hate crimes particularly against Muslims (but also against Brown people in general), and contributed to the rise in xenophobia and divisions in our society we see today, though.
Nope. You can judge how successful a government has been for UK society on the number of deaths via war but to me that is nonsense
Of course. Brown lives don't matter.
Wars are wars and I don't think they are based on skin colour. Most wars are pointless and I pretty much support none of them. But as I said, that has no bearing on most peoples choice of future government, i.e. nonsense.
just please go and work out who really doesn’t give a shit about you and yours
Does labour? I don't know if they do. Starmer's actions since he won the leadership indicate otherwise, because so far he only seems interested in making sure people like me are not welcome in the party. I believe the wider party and movement have my best interests at heart, but labour MPs seem to want total control so they can ignore what the party wants. I have zero faith or confidence that the vast majority of labour MPs give a shit about me and my family, and instead am pretty sure they are only in politics to further their own careers.
So, the ‘all Muslims are terrorists’ trope.
That really is the worst strawman I've seen in a long time.
Brown lives don’t matter.
Said no one. Bridges, every person you have engaged with in this thread was against the Iraq war at the time (I think), and in hindsight still think it was wrong.
making sure people like me are not welcome in the party
How?
I have zero faith or confidence that the vast majority of labour MPs give a shit about me and my family
Well, I wouldn't apply that description to any Labour MP I've ever spoken to. But then, many of those are no longer in parliament sadly. Anyway, it's a sweeping statement that surprises me, even coming from you. If you really think it matters not whether our representatives in parliament are Labour or Tory... I'm not sure why you care who leads the Labour Party, and how they go about it, to be honest.
am pretty sure they are only in politics to further their own careers.
If that was true why would they choose the Labour party? If your only reason for becoming an MP was career based, with no ethical or moral consideration, then you would be standing as a Tory MP surely to increase future opportunities.
so far he only seems interested in making sure people like me are not welcome in the party
You identify as an Anarchist, you're not supposed to feel welcome in any political party. That's sort of the point...
You identify as an Anarchist
I don't identify myself with any label. I'm actually quite a pragmatist. My core principles align with those of anarchism, but I'm not ideologically against parties or politicians as long as they are honest and do what they promise. Under it's current leadership and with the current PLP, labour do neither.
I’m actually quite a pragmatist
You not that long ago responded condescendingly to pragmatism and claimed it never got anything done.
responded condescendingly to pragmatism and claimed it never got anything done.
Nope, don't remember that. Centrism probably, but not pragmatism. Funny though isn't it, because while centrist 'pragmatists' construct silly fantasies about reds under the bed fomenting revolution, I'm supposedly an 'ideological puritan' for being generally dismissive and distrustful of MPs and others who hold power who prove time and again that they can't get things done and are not to be trusted.
Centrists (at least the UK and european ones) are not pragmatic. They are ideologues hanging on to an outdated and bankrupt philosophy which has been proven to have failed, and which is being abandoned across the world. Starmer needs to catch up, as everything has radically changed since the 90s.
dismissive and distrustful of MPs and others who hold power who prove time and again that they can’t get things done and are not to be trusted.
I am with you on that and I would completely change the whole setup. Interesting that most democratic countries do similar things with MPs, governments etc, though isn't it.
Interesting that most democratic countries do similar things with MPs, governments etc, though isn’t it.
Yeah they all make, and repeat, the same mistakes and have the same problems, and fail to solve them even though the solutions exist and are there to be tried. The one commonality is the disproportionate concentration of power in the hands of a few, and the absence of any effective mechanism to challenge and dilute that power. We really shouldn't have to riot on the streets or wait for crises like covid to affect change when it is necessary. We don't do that in other walks of life, so why politics?
Centrists (at least the UK and european ones) are not pragmatic.
Oh, isn't that sweet... someone arguably a 'centrist' wins power in the USA, and then once in position starts turning things around, not just for his country but for the world... and suddenly... no, that 'centrist' is fine... it’s the ones trying to get into positions of power here that are bad because... er... they'd do just the same in power as the right wing self serving corrupt nationalist nut jobs currently in government. Quite apart from Starmer not being a 'centrist' (unless all Labour leaders in my lifetime have been), the approach of pulling in voters who are not of the left into the fold has worked over there, it can work here… and doing so doesn’t preclude any resulting government from acting quite differently to the one it replaces, and doing so in the interests of far more people, if they win.
Nope, don’t remember that. Centrism probably, but not pragmatism.
Yep, definitely pragmatism not centrism. It stood out as one of your more curious statements.
it’s the ones trying to get into positions of power here that are bad because…
The reason Biden is respected by the left is because he made a deal with them to do the stuff they want in return for their support and campaign operation. Now he's in power he's making good on that deal. Starmer made a similar deal in the labour leadership election. When he won he called all the people from the left who supported him racists, ditched all the promises he made about policy, sacked the leading leftwing shadow cabinet member, and threw their former leader and many activists out of the party. Spot the difference?
When he won he called all the people from the left who supported him racists
Er, yeah, right. Of course he did.
This is all about Corbyn and Long-Bailey, isn’t it?
This is all about Corbyn and Long-Bailey, isn’t it?
It's partly about them. It's mostly about trust though. Starmer didn't have much to start with, but many (including me) voted for him on the basis of his promises which we believed, despite the fact that many on the left told us we were being fooled (I had quite a few people express their disagreement with my voting for him). To build on that initial trust, Starmer needed to demonstrate that he would include the left as partners in his project and repay that trust, as Biden has done. The sacking of RLB and ridiculously over the top treatment of Corbyn clearly showed the opposite, and his actions since then have confirmed that. As a result he now has a party at war, a demoralised activist base, a much reduced membership, and breakaway parties reducing the labour vote. Nice job!
If you make a deal with someone, then break it, you can't expect the other party to trust you or deal with you again. I don't really know why he has done what he has. I think he was probably sincere when he made those promises, and then buckled under pressure from the nutters on the right of the party. Even if that's not the case, at the very least it's shockingly incompetent leadership.
The sacking of RLB and ridiculously over the top treatment of Corbyn
So it is about those two. They both made their positions impossible. There are plenty of other left wing people in the Labour Party for Starmer to work with, and many are working with him. You are right that the sidelining of those two has enraged a hell of a lot of supporters, but it had to happen... sadly. It's on them, as far as I'm concerned. They let down so many people. I'd rather have had both of them inside and fighting the Tories.
The sacking of RLB and ridiculously over the top treatment of Corbyn clearly showed the opposite
Really? RLB was hopelessly naïve if she thought re-tweeting Maxine Peake's nonsense wouldn't get her into hot water, and what else was Starmer supposed to do about Corbyn's frankly idiotic "Sorry, not sorry" statements?
Fair enough Starmer has to be inclusive, but at the same time, you've got to want to be included, and ultimately; lead by your party's leader...If you do stupid things that are likely to get you sacked, don't be surprised if you get the sack.
If that was true why would they choose the Labour party? If your only reason for becoming an MP was career based, with no ethical or moral consideration, then you would be standing as a Tory MP surely to increase future opportunities.
Why would the Tory party want any of this lot?
Harder on his own party than the Tories has got him where?
Hard on his own party how? Or is that comment also about the same two individuals?
So it is about those two.
No it's about trust. The trust between the two factions of the party was a much bigger issue than RLB or Corbyn, and Starmer could have recognised that. Instead he chose the option which he knew would piss off the left the most, probably at the behest of people telling him he had to use a big stick to show them who's boss.
And in other news..
If SA had a lobby as effective as Israel's Mandela would have died in prison on Robben Island and Keir Stammer would be refusing to share a platform with those that called for sanctions.
— Essex Boy (@GregClinker) April 22, 2021
Your point is? That he should attend events no matter who attends? Or that he shouldn’t take into account advice from certain Jewish groups? Just as last year, Starmer has been welcoming of Ramadan…
Why would the Tory party want any of this lot?
I take it you haven't seen many Tory MPs...
Can we stop thinking Biden is the second coming?
Your point is? That he should attend events no matter who attends? Or that he shouldn’t take into account advice from certain Jewish groups?
That being in favour of a boycott of Israeli dates isn't controversial or anti-semitic and that he should grow a pair, but he won't because he has rich Israeli-lobbyist backers?
It isn’t about the boycott. Where did him get that from?
EDIT: Oh, the tweet Dazh shared claims it’s about “sanctions”. Look into it a bit more, it’s about support for Cage UK.
It's not the tweet it links to a Times of Israel piece saying it was pointed out by another attendee that the guy in question had supported a boycott of Israeli dates - the stuff about Cage is only mentioned incidentally.
The original JC story mentioned both. An awful lot of people want to paint Starmer’s no show to be about the sanctions not the support for Cage. Caution not to be seen to support this guy seems wise to me.
Can we stop thinking Biden is the second coming?
Yeah, the centrist bastard! He’s no Bernie Sanders.
Can we stop thinking Biden is the second coming?
In direct contrast to Trump he sort of is.
Indeed. Not waking up and wondering if the US president has nuked Iran yet is a major bonus.
And it looks like he's doing a bloody great job, to me. He's hit the ground running in no uncertain terms!
But it seems that no matter what he does, he will always be vilified by a certain section for simply not being Bernie Sanders, by the same people who were never going to give Starmer a chance either, simply because he isn't Jeremy Corbyn.
So far, so predictable
And in other news..
TBF, Anyone with any ties to The Cage isn't exactly the sort of folk any normal politician should be seen within 200 yards of, so Starmer was given a good steer (and obviously thought so himself). Although clearly any advice taken from any rabbis and and reported in the Jewish Chronicle obvious means Starmer is in the pay of Israeli Intelligence.
the same people who were never going to give Starmer a chance either, simply because he isn’t Jeremy Corbyn.
So how is this "centrist" project going Binners? Still predicting stunning electoral results?
Is the policy of being neither this or that inspiring the electorate?
Because winning elections and maintaining the status quo is all that counts. Apparently.
Or are UK voters all secret radicals who won't give Starmer a chance?
Or are UK voters all secret radicals who won’t give Starmer a chance?
I think the UK electorate are not so secret Tories, who prefer Johnson aren't they?
So how is this “centrist” project going Binners?
Ernie, Labour needs to be a coalition of what some people call "centrists" and those of us on the left. While both or either fight against that, the party will fail. Full stop. If it can only be one or the other, it will never get the support it needs to replace the Conservatives in government. With a different way of electing a government it could be different, but that's where we're stuck.
TBF, Anyone with any ties to The Cage isn’t exactly the sort of folk any normal politician should be seen within 200 yards of, so Starmer was given a good steer
Last week he was being slagged off for not doing his homework and being involved with a religious group with dodgy views on homosexuality. This week the very same people are slating him for doing his homework and (sensibly) deciding that Cage is a group that you don't want to touch with the proverbial barge pole
He can't win. He never could with some people.
Or are UK voters all secret radicals who won’t give Starmer a chance?
Like it or not, a lot of the UK population are small 'c' conservatives, and a lot are big 'C' conservatives. And with the economy opening up again and people able to go to the pub and Primark again, the pre-covid status quo appears to be exactly what people want. And you ca't really blame them for that
I know that a lot of you are disappointed by the lack of appetite of most people for radicalism, but thats the electorate for you. The bastards! Perhaps if you berate them more, they'll change their minds?
And with the economy opening up again and people able to go to the pub and Primark again, the pre-covid status quo appears to be exactly what people want. And you ca’t really blame them for that
I assume from that comment you have re-evaluated the situation and are no longer predicting stunning election success for Starmer.
Is this based on the fact that the last 3 national opinion polls have put Labour on 34%, exactly the same as Labour achieved in the last general election?
Btw binners ref : "And you ca’t really blame them for that" it is very generous of you not to blame the electorate.
And, if I may say so, rather unusual for you not to point an accusing finger.
