I don’t get is why you guys support a system
Who "supports a system"? We need major reform. Another 10, 20, 40 years of Conservative governments aren't going deliver that. Well... they will reform things, but only to ensure they it becomes harder and harder to remove them.
Wanting Labour to win a FPTP general election is not "supporting" the system we have, it's engaging with it.
don’t then have a go at the people who get off their arses and try and do something
I don't. I support them. Including donating to groups actively pushing for change.
Also, that sentence is exactly what I think when people moan on about "career politicians" who have left being their previously hard won careers to try and make a difference. Such as Keir Starmer. He has got off his arse and is trying to do something.
Wanting Labour to win a FPTP general election is not “supporting” the system we have, it’s engaging with it.
So; having a leader who is utterly useless and will not affect any significant change, what's the point of that? It'll just be another rich man in a suit, replacing another rich man in a suit. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose...
Can I just ask, though; if Starmer did become PM (unlikely, but you never know), what do you think would change in the UK? I think it's more productive discussing that, than 'yabbering on' about what a bastard Corbyn is, etc.
We need major reform
And you think Starmer would achieve that?
Well funny isn’t it because when people like Thelma Walker try to do something people like Binners call them traitors!
I've not called anyone a traitor. I've pointed out that the most likely outcome of her actions is an increased Tory majority
Vive la revolution, comrade!
Oh my god... Starmer wears a suit!
First against the wall, all those suit wearers.
I'm pretty much done with our political system tbh. I'll probably still vote I suppose but only out of habit/guilt/hatred of Tories. Corbyn had many flaws but his leadership showed quite clearly that the establishment will not tolerate someone who doesn't fit into the window of what has been decided is acceptable. Lurches to the right are ok, lurches to the left not so much.
It's not a conspiracy it's just the way the system is, and it's never going to change until the whole thing completely crumbles to pieces.
Kelvin your posts on here are increasingly bitter and straw mannish - maybe try and step away from these threads for a bit.
I’m pretty much done with our political system tbh.
Aren't we all? It's still there though.
Apathy (no, more than that, resentment of) our political system is pretty widespread. And time and time again, the more motivated swing elections because of it. Sadly, the demographic of "motivated" voters isn't a very pretty one if you want any moves towards a more democratic, more equal, more open society.
maybe try and step away from these threads for a bit.
Wise advice.
Keir Starmer. He has got off his arse and is trying to do something.
What, exactly, is he trying to do? Other than further damage the Labour party, and create more division in society? I'd be really interested in what you think he's 'trying to do'.
Sadly, the demographic of “motivated” voters isn’t a very pretty one if you want any moves towards a more democratic, more equal, more open society.
I'm going to try and concentrate on things I can actually change, in my local area - if I think too much about the creeping (or maybe not even creeping) far-right authoritarianism in our country and how little I can do about it, it just makes me sad/angry/fearful.
I can only hope Scotland gains independence and I'll try and move back up there once the kids are a bit older. Scottish politics isn't exactly covering itself in glory either though.
I’m going to try and concentrate on things I can actually change, in my local area
Sage advice. We really do put way too much emphasis on party politics and too much faith and expectation in politicians. It's why I keep banging on about decentralisation etc, and why I don't call myself a socialist, because ultimately I don't believe in the power of the state or politicians. We are actually much more powerful than we think, but the politicians and their fanboys don't want anyone to figure that out, because they'd be redundant if we did. Let them play their pointless game, and then ignore them and get on with your life.
I’ve not called anyone a traitor.
"They're not a cult. They're a fifth column".
We need major reform. Another 10, 20, 40 years of Conservative governments aren’t going deliver that.
And neither will Starmer. Corbyn wasn't even proposing much beyond making it a bit less ruthlessly anti-worker. So what reform do you think we need and who do you think will deliver it? On the current evidence it won't be the labour party. So who?
If you think it’s impossible for a Labour government to effect any real change, then why do you care who is their party leader or what they are doing?
I don't believe it's impossible but I see no evidence at all to think that it will be delivered by the current leadership. For all Binners' bleating about the left, the irony is that it's Starmer who is the Tories' greatest gift, with his curious insistence on seeking room in the places they are strongest.
Are they seriously going to try and fix the Labour party with Jess Phillips?
OMFG.
It's like plugging a water leak by drilling more holes.
In other news...
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/29/keir-starmer-year-labour-poll-ratings
When your friends gang up on you.
When your friends gang up on you.
Even without the massive media opposition that Corbyn suffered, Starmer is still unpopular. Perhaps the Starmerists can explain why.
Still; it's good to see anti-Semitism has been completely eradicated from the Labour party.
https://jwa.org/blog/weaponization-antisemitism-naomi-wimborne-idrissis-suspension-uk-labour-party
Is it just me or is Starmer looking increasingly red-faced? With every passing week he looks more and more like Charles Kennedy. I hope he's getting some help 😉
Still; it’s good to see anti-Semitism has been completely eradicated from the Labour party.
https://jwa.org/blog/weaponization-antisemitism-naomi-wimborne-idrissis-suspension-uk-labour-party
/blockquote>Suspending a Jewish Labour activist who is descended from holocaust survivors for daring to question the response to the EHRC report, who has herself been on the receiving end of vile abuse from supposed Labour supporters - yup that sounds like how to tackle anti-semitism. If you are a 'zionist' with rich Israeli lobbyist backers (that you kept secret until elected leader) anyway.
There's a video of her speaking and she isn't some crazed marxist, she is exactly the kind of person the Labour Party was founded for/by, but now there's no place for her in it.
Dangerous extremist! It's actually the best explanation of the entire anti-semitism debacle I've seen.
Binners. I was going to respond to your last post but as I didn't know where to start I decided not to bother.
Besides, the entertainment value of your daily rants are such that I feel it would be churlish of me to repeatedly nitpick them. And after all I'm sure no one is suppose to take them very seriously.
BTW I particularly enjoyed your post a few weeks ago when you drew everyone's attention to an opinion poll which had placed Labour in the lead. Since then there have been 40 opinion polls, all them showing a Tory lead. Although I'm sure that according to you it's all Jeremy Corbyn fault. Or Boris Johnson's.
Just watched that. And the poll that showed 55% of people didn't know what Labour stood for. My question - what the hell are the other 45% thinking?
Probably something like this....
DrJ
Free MemberJust watched that. And the poll that showed 55% of people didn’t know what Labour stood for.
The really sad thing is that when Labour did their own internal studies after Miliband, they found the exact same issue. But it took a while to complete those reports, and in the meantime "Miliband was too left wing" had become the accepted truth.
So here we are again, 6 years down the line and one of the biggest takeaways of Miliband's leadership has been completely forgotten, and in fact in a lot of cases intentionally buried.
Labour have incredible form on this of course; from the self harm of the "Blair made Labour electable" fantasy, to the ongoing daily issues of "we lost Scotland because of the indy ref". And too many Corbyn myths to even start. It's not just that they don't reliably learn from the mistakes of the past; that's bad, but what's worse is they also don't learn from the victories. The party's whole idea of who and what they are, their history, purpose and future is a mess. Every new leader ends up building on that same foundation of mud, with slightly different mud bricks (and man do the people with slightly different mud hate that)
Of course the two leaderships are very different, but obviously and completely unsurprisingly the same problem exists. With Miliband the mad thing is how obvious and easy to diagnose it was. I mean, they knew it themselves, it's just that it led to self-harm like the Ed Stone instead of useful action.
Starmer, not so simple. Some of it's the same. "Nurses deserve more pay" "how much more"? "er, dunno" was the Milibandiest thing ever. Mostly it's not the same. I think Starmer quite likely does have a pretty strong feeling of self and of where he wants to lead, but doesn't communicate it. Weirdly though it often feels like where it came from incompetence and genuine rudderlessness with Miliband's team and with the man himself, with Starmer it's something they work really hard at.
The other thing, is how close it is between success and failure on this. David Cameron was an absolute vaccuum before he was PM. But he had the knack of being a blank white wall that people could project onto, of saying just the right meaningless things and having people fill in the gaps. Trump could do the same- people translated his gibberish how they wanted. But Starmer can't. Probably that's to his credit but it means he deparately needs something else.
politics AND a sense of humour:
The LP will struggle*
*NB not class struggle
The people that Channel 4 ask for views on Starmer/Johnson tell you all you need to know about letting people vote. To summarise
Johnson is doing a great job and the same numbers of deaths would have occurred whoever was leader
Couldn't trust Starmer as far as you could throw him. Can trust a proven liar (Johnson) over a former QC, mmmm.
the right meaningless things and having people fill in the gaps. Trump could do the same- people translated his gibberish how they wanted. But Starmer can’t.
Exactly. Starmer is not good at playing the game and neither was Corbyn. If you don't know how the game works you are not going to be winning it are you. Losing massively and stating that at least you had integrity is not helping much.
The people that Channel 4 ask for views on Starmer/Johnson tell you all you need to know about letting people vote.
It was amazing to watch people say things like "Johnson will tell it to you straight", and "He's a strong leader, he had problems at the beginning of the pandemic but he's come through the other side". I mean - how do you communicate with these ^H^H^H^H^H people?
Lisa Nandy outdoing herself this morning on national tv, refusing to say what everyone can see with their own eyes because she doesn't have the courage to take a position against the government on the behaviour of the police. And they wonder why people don't trust them and won't vote for them? Have they actually got an opinion on anything?
https://twitter.com/labourleft/status/1377166187231014917?s=20
Ouch!
https://novaramedia.com/2021/03/31/imagine-starmer-is-polling-badly-now-times-that-by-ten/
And meanwhile those traitorous fifth columnists are gathering momentum...
https://twitter.com/FreeNorthNow/status/1377574631708749825?s=20
And meanwhile those traitorous fifth columnists are gathering momentum…
Looks like Binners might have nailed it, unfortunately...
Labour are going to lose Hartlepool for a couple of reasons.
Firstly, and the main reason: the former Corbynite Labour MP for the Colne Valley, Thelma Walker is standing against the labour candidate as an independent. This will split the vote, take a stack of votes off labour and none whatsoever off the Tory’s, thus delivering the Tory candidate the seat, gift-warapped with a nice big bow and some party poppers to let off at their victory Zoom call with Boris that evening.
Yebbut who caused the split?
Looks like Binners might have nailed it, unfortunately…
The only thing binners nailed was the fact that Starmer's war against the left has (as I predicted a year ago) forced many in the party to leave and pursue their own agenda. I'm pretty sure when I made that prediction it was roundly dismissed (and celebrated) by binners, but now it seems he and others are not that keen. TBH given his penchant for black pudding and all things 'chippy northerner', the NIP should be right up binners' street. I remember on more than one occasion him saying we need a northern SNP, well now we have it. 🙂
war against the left
Such as?
Lisa Nandy outdoing herself this morning on national tv, refusing to say what everyone can see with their own eyes because she doesn’t have the courage to take a position against the government on the behaviour of the police.
Lisa Nandy only cares what the Express-reading Brexit-voting white working class voters in her constituency think (*).
* I use the term loosely.
I thought the complaints were that Labour didn't listen enough to Brexit-voting white working class voters? Hard to keep up with what Labour are supposed to be getting wrong from day to day.
I think it's possible for different people to have different complaints, no?
Yebbut who caused the split?
It. Really. Doesn't. Matter.
Such as?
Kelvin instead of being pedantically and wilfully ignorant, perhaps instead you should ask why tens of thousands of leftwing members and activists have left the party? The fact that this has and is happening is all the proof you need that Starmer has completely failed in his goal of 'unifying the party'. He's split the party, and it is weaker as a result. He's achieved something no other leader has, so perhaps he and his supporters should start taking some responsibility for it.
perhaps instead you should ask why tens of thousands of leftwing members and activists have left the party?
Because they like losing elections?
Cure me of my ignorance. Show me details of “Starmer’s war on the left”… it feels much like the purge others claim exists (Bill’s last example of this was a Hartlepool councillor losing his membership after supporting the "NIPS" candidate). An exodus of members who are unhappy with the direction of the leadership is not a “war on the left” or a “purge of the left” it is simply members unhappy that the party doesn’t represent them sufficiently. Supporting alternative parties and candidates is one thing… claims of there being victims of a “war on the left” or “purge of the left” is something else, and if it’s happening on any meaningful scale, you’ll have examples to share… name names.
Starmer has completely failed in his goal of ‘unifying the party’
Absolutely he has. As will anyone else that tries. I think that’s clear to us all, and it is true of the voting public. Split and still unready to govern, that is how Labour is viewed by most people.
Jackie Walker, Chris Williamson, Jeremy Corbyn, Moshe Machover, Tony Greenstein.....
I was a member of the Labour party when I thought Corbyn was the sort of person who may do it. After a few weeks I saw how wrong I was and didn't renew. My money now goes to the Green party as they are more in line with my thinking and need more help even though they have far less chance of getting anywhere than even a Starmer Labour party.
Jackie Walker, Chris Williamson, Jeremy Corbyn, Moshe Machover, Tony Greenstein…..
And you see the common theme there being because they are of the "Left" rather than something else?
[ ignoring that fact that some of these individuals lost their membership of the Labour Party before Starmer was even leader ]
Show me details of “Starmer’s war on the left”
There isn't one. It only exists in the paranoid, delusional minds of those who for one reason or another need to define themselves as endlessly persecuted and then revel in their self-appointed victim status.
Well he certainly hasn't had a war on the right.
Kicking out JC and RLB on highly tenuous grounds is pretty 'war on the left' in itself no?
Show me details of “Starmer’s war on the left”
Ok war is the wrong word, but are you denying that Starmer has from day one sought to exclude, ignore and in many cases actively work against the interests of those on the left. To unify the party he had to work inclusively with the left and deliver on his promises in the leadership campaign which motivated a huge number of members on the left to vote for him. He hasn't done any of that, and in many cases has done the direct opposite of what he promised. And the results are there for all to see.
Lets' turn this round, give me one concrete example of where he has listened and respected the views of those on the left he said he wanted to work with. I know the response will be that he's trying to appeal to tory voters, but clearly he's failing at that (see polling article above), and is compounding it by also failing to keep his own supporters on side, leaving the labour party looking much like the liberal democrats: A hollowed out, principle free and morally bankrupt centrist cult.
