https://twitter.com/aronkeller/status/1376245670592585739?s=19
A painful LoL.
Our local Labour council has taken this approach too, and reminding everyone they're flying the Union flag all the time.
So anyway, if Starmer is going to lose Labour seats that remained Labour even under Corbyn where are all these new Labour votes going to come from binners – the Tory strongholds?
Evening Ernie. Good to see you comrade
Anyway... it was always commonly accepted that in a FPTP electoral system delivers government to those who can win the key marginals.
That bloke who won three consecutive elections knew that. What was his name again? Tony something or other
But that was before the Labour Party - or those who colonised it - decided to elect a leader who would make them so electorally repellent that they would lose massive amounts of the seats that they’d been able to depend on winning since dinosaurs roamed the earth
Now they’ve lost them and the link is broken they haven’t half got their work cut out
So you’d think that ‘the left’ might do a bit of soul-searching, maybe acknowledge the damage they’ve done and maybe show a bit of humility
Yeah, right.
None of that nonsense. Instead they’ll blame everyone but themselves and just carry on with their endless sanctimonious bleating and hold out for the day when the entire British electorate bows down to their obvious moral superiority and acknowledges that they were right t all along and thank god that their idealogical purity has saved us all from ourselves.
Once we’ve all done that, what do we address first... peace in Palestine or nuclear disarmament
Actually... the situation in Venezuela is quite pressing, and we’ve not really got to grips with trans rights yet. It’s a pretty crucial issue in Batley
Our local Labour council has taken this approach too, and reminding everyone they’re flying the Union flag all the time
if you ask your average voter what the most pressing issue is... Potholes or a Universal Basic Income, guess what the answer would be by 99.9999999999999999%
You lot seriously need to engage with the real world some time soon. It’ll blow your mind
The 'real world' is constantly harking back to the 90s? While calling everyone else stuck in the past.
How's that working out currently?
So binners you can't explain why you expect Labour to lose Hartlepool despite Starmer apparently being a great electoral asset, and the seat being won twice by Labour under Corbyn.
In fact Labour very marginally increased its share of the vote in Hartlepool under Corbyn, but you still nevertheless expect Starmer to lose the seat.
Don't you think it slightly undermines your strategy, even if you want to throw in some diversionary stuff about Palestine and Venezuela?
.... FPTP electoral system delivers government to those who can win the key marginals.
Even if they lose their safe seats? Really? Are you sure?
But that was before the Labour Party – or those who colonised it
I do worry about you. No one ‘colonised’ the Labour Party. It’s a fantasy you’ve imagined to explain away the failures that were evident long before Corbyn appeared. The people you seem to despise *are the labour party*. You know, the activists, members, trade unionists and campaigners who make up the wider labour movement. The colonists are the careerist MPs and officials who think the sole purpose of the party is to deliver their career ambitions.
The reality you talk about doesn’t exist, outside of parliament labour has always been a left wing party. What I don’t understand is why you’re a member when you’d clearly be better off in the Lib Dems.
Yeah Binners, stop supporting Labour, you’re not pure enough, you’re not wanted.
you’re not pure enough
It’s got bugger all to do with being pure (I don’t know what that means BTW), But if you’re against the vast majority of the people in a party then it’s logical to question whether it’s the place for you.
Labour needs a wider appeal, not a narrower one. We live in a country where FPTP means that narrowly focussed parties will only ever hold office locally, when the central government holds all the real political power to effect everyone’s lives. And you are telling a party member he’s the wrong kind of member. I’ve met plenty of people like you, people who complain of ‘purges’ while making others unwelcome, and they (along with the rule on not showing support for other parties), is what keeps me the hell away from joining Labour as a member. Happy to be a supporter and a voter. Labour needs to be for the whole country, not just its members. It’s not currently seen that way by many.
I’ve met plenty of people like you, people who complain of ‘purges’ while making others unwelcome
So first off I'm not a member (technically I am still but I stopped paying the fees and they're too incompetent to get round to accepting my resignation), because after joining up in the naive hope that Starmer was true to his word about maintaining the policies and uniting the party, I quickly realised it was all bollocks so decided it wasn't for me. In their current state I doubt whether I'll even vote for them in future. So I'm only suggesting that binners and people like him also make an objective assessment on whether the labour party is a place for them as I have.
Secondly, the only purges that have occured have been under Starmer's leadership. Almost no one got kicked out under Corbyn, yet under Starmer many longstanding members and acitivists, including the former leader himself have been kicked out for transparently partisan reasons. You talk of people being made to feel unwelcome, well Starmer is doing a superb job at that, and is much more effective at it than the phantom leftwing ogres you imagine. It's literally the only thing he's been good at, and it's why he's tanking in the polls and looking further from power than even Corbyn himself, which is saying something because I'm pretty certain Corbyn never even wanted the job.
kelvin
Full MemberLabour needs a wider appeal, not a narrower one. We live in a country where FPTP means that narrowly focussed parties will only ever hold office locally, when the central government holds all the real political power to effect everyone’s lives. And you are telling a party member he’s the wrong kind of member. I’ve met plenty of people like you, people who complain of ‘purges’ while making others unwelcome, and they (along with the rule on not showing support for other parties), is what keeps me the hell away from joining Labour as a member. Happy to be a supporter and a voter. Labour needs to be for the whole country, not just its members. It’s not currently seen that way by many.
Ironically, and rather amusingly, you are actually arguing against binners stance, despite attempting to defend him.
It is binners who is ranting about the wrong sort of person "colonising" the party. And he castigates Ed Miliband for believing that "Labour needs to be for the whole country, not just its members".
I'll remind you what binners said:
Ed’s catastrophic error in allowing them to colonise the party for 3 quid a pop
For “3 quid a pop” they weren’t members, they were supporters with a vote. Unlike Binners, I’m glad Corbyn made the changes he did for the 2017 GE. And he couldn’t have done so without the new supporters and members. Most of them were first time members/supporters of any party, and that excitement for a Labour Party with new direction and a different leadership style was very real. It wasn’t all middle aged men who had moved to Labour from the Communist Party or other fringe groups, it was mostly young people.
No they weren't. I'll remind you what you said, quote :
"Labour needs to be for the whole country, not just its members. "
Yeah Binners, stop supporting Labour, you’re not pure enough, you’re not wanted.
It's not about being pure it's the fact that he appears to despise the majority of Labour party members/activists, as well as trade unions and the Labour movement generally that the party is grounded in. It really doesn't seem like a good fit.
And btw you need to tell that to binners. He believes they "colonised" the party, which sggests that they were members.
“Labour needs to be for the whole country, not just its members“
Quote that as often as you want!
Thanks.
Does Binners really despise them, or their unwillingness to meet the voters “half way”? And who does he (or you) mean anyway? “The Left” for most people is everyone in and voting for Labour. To some inside it is a smaller or larger, grouping that expands and contracts depending on the point being made and who is trying to make the point.
Where is that happening?
You’ve not noticed it?
Attempts to remove the barriers between the wider voters and Labour results in claims of…
- being pro-establishment
- not opposing the Conservatives
- being Blairite
- being liberals
- flag shagging
- standing for nothing
- being dull
[ actually, that last one I agree with ]
So you’d think that ‘the left’ might do a bit of soul-searching, maybe acknowledge the damage they’ve done and maybe show a bit of humility
It's a fair point: a lot of the left voted for Starmer and should acknowledge their mistake.
You lot seriously need to engage with the real world some time soon
Sums up this thread. There are two things here
1. What the Labour party should be to make the Labour "nerds" happy in their ideal world
2. What the Labour party should be to get elected
There is not a lot of overlap in these two and I am biased very much for 2.
As the "great" man said - Don't let perfection be the enemy of progress
There seems to be an assumption here that voters opinions are static and, if they appear to be rightwing DM readers, the job of the LP is therefore to lead from the right. Up until now front line workers have been very popular and clearly overworked and underpaid. Now there's an opprtunity to get in front of a support the nurses' full pay claim campaign and also be arguing against privatisation and 'Health Security'. Sadly, it ain't gonna happen.
They've already said 'find another way to protest' implying that anyone who gets battered by batons shouldn't have been there in the first place. His first statement of principles about zionism might not play too well with a good few million of normally Labour voters. It's unclear as to whom they are appealing.
The government's record is shocking. What makes people gooey-eyed and fuzzily irrational? The flag. Demand that the flag be on every government building then people will get gooey eyed about the flag and the government. Result. (Cost for advice from the Nadge Unit: £???m).
Ahh… nurses pay… perfect example. The ‘half way’ between Labour ideals and the public is to say that the government’s 1% is an insult, but without backing the 14% figure that the unions are (rightly in my opinion) pushing for (or even the 50% or whatever some on here were suggesting). Pay the nurses more say Labour. Not enough say some. Labour are now just like the government they say. What about Israel they say next. The voters recoil. Then Len McCluskey has his say. The voters shudder.
So binners you can’t explain why you expect Labour to lose Hartlepool despite Starmer apparently being a great electoral asset, and the seat being won twice by Labour under Corbyn.
Labour are going to lose Hartlepool for a couple of reasons.
Firstly, and the main reason: the former Corbynite Labour MP for the Colne Valley, Thelma Walker is standing against the labour candidate as an independent. This will split the vote, take a stack of votes off labour and none whatsoever off the Tory's, thus delivering the Tory candidate the seat, gift-warapped with a nice big bow and some party poppers to let off at their victory Zoom call with Boris that evening.
https://twitter.com/DerbyChrisW/status/1376305305739522056?s=20
*slow handclap for Thelma*
Secondly. I think what we're about to witness is probably the greatest political paradox of my lifetime. Boris is presently being handed two get out of jail free cards by two groups of people he despises and who despise him right back.
The NHS (an organisation he would privatise in a heartbeat if he thought he could get away with it) staff who have delivered the vaccination programme have basically saved his sorry hide with their dedication and efficiency. In return he has treated them with contempt, as you'd expect, but it would appear that through their actions they have wiped the slate clean of a year of dithering, incompetence and corruption.
The theres the EU. They've also given Boris a nice big present in the form of their own hopeless dealing with the vaccination programme. In an area that is very very Brexity indeed, the EU have just confirmed pretty much everything that the Brexiteers said was wrong wit the EU and why we were right to leave it
*slow handclap for Ursula Von De Leyen*
Keir Starmer and the Labour hierarchy are little more than bystanders in all this.
I hope I'm wrong, but I doubt it.
EDIT: I've just had a look at the odds. Labour are on 1.8/1, the Tory's are 1.9/1. So theres nowt in it. I've just stuck a tenner on a Tory win so that when Boris does somewhat ridiculously increase his majority at least I'll get a small financial compensation
Do you have a different prediction?
Attempts to remove the barriers between the wider voters and Labour results in claims of…
– being pro-establishment
– not opposing the Conservatives
– being Blairite
– being liberals
– flag shagging
– standing for nothing
– being dull
Which parts of that aren't true though?
The thing is, it's a bit like a football team in that a lot could be forgiven with a bit of success. But to abandon many of the things the Labour Party has traditionally represented, kick the former leader out of the party, embrace nationalism, whip MPs to vote for Brexit having previously campaigned for the opposite, and STILL be hopelessly far behind in the polls, well...
Edit: if in doubt, keep on blaming Corbyn for everything - laughable
This will split the vote, take a stack of votes off labour and none whatsoever off the Tory’s, thus delivering the Tory candidate the seat, gift-warapped with a nice big bow and some party poppers to let off at their victory Zoom call with Boris that evening.
I thought the only people who supported Corbyn/his policies was a small cabal of unreformed 1970s Marxists, but now they are going to swing the election to the Tories? Interesting...
Double post
Edit: if in doubt, keep on blaming Corbyn for everything – laughable
One of his disciples (former secretary to John Mcdonnell) is standing against the labour candidate as an independent, thus splitting the labour vote and handing the seat to the Tory's. Thats not really laughable, is it? It's really, really bloody stupid and totally self-defeating.Once again being Boris's useful idiots
I thought the only people who supported Corbyn/his policies was a small cabal of unreformed 1970s Marxists, but now they are going to swing the election to the Tories?
So, do you think my prediction is wrong then? I've shown my workings in the margin and everyfink.
Stick some money on it. I have.
Do you fancy the usual pastry-based wager? I'll have a tenner of Greggs vouchers with you that the seat goes blue?
2. What the Labour party should be to get elected
There is not a lot of overlap in these two and I am biased very much for 2.
As the “great” man said – Don’t let perfection be the enemy of progress
I think you've described most members of the party, the evidence for which is all those former Corbyn-supporters who supported Starmer in the belief that a compromise candidate would deliver a pragmatic outcome. I see that Dodds is now being set up as the fall guy/ woman for the party's dismal performance, presumably because there's no-one on the left of the party still in a position to be purged.
Well I'm glad that you have got your excuses in nice early binners. So you are convinced that Labour will lose the Hartlepool by-election but none of it will be Starmers, the Labour Party Leader, fault.
Instead it will be the fault of, first of all, an alleged Corbynite independent candidate, which kinda makes it Corbyn's fault.
Secondly, and unsurprisingly, it will be Boris Johnson's fault.
And thirdly, and rather more surprisingly, it will be the EU's fault if Labour lose the by-election.
Well as long as it's not Starmers fault, eh binners?
You ask me if I have a different prediction. Well I don't know who will win the Hartlepool by-election. I suspect, but don't know, that Labour will win it. After all Labour won Hartlepool in the previous 2 parliamentary elections.
But what I do know for sure is that Labour must win safe Labour seats if it is to form a government. I don't subscribe to you very bizarre claim that safe Labour seats don't matter as long as Labour wins the Tory marginals.
Do you fancy the usual pastry-based wager? I’ll have a tenner of Greggs vouchers with you that the seat goes blue?
I've no idea if the seat will go to the Tories, but it's interesting that you can't bring yourself to admit that it could be because Starmer isn't offering anything to persuade people to vote Labour.
When I say "interesting", I mean "entirely predictable"
I see that Dodds is now being set up as the fall guy/ woman for the party’s dismal performance, presumably because there’s no-one on the left of the party still in a position to be purged.
More purge bollocks.
Dodds is an abysmal media performer and needs shifting. She's not the only one. A reshuffle is needed. That some of those that need removing from the front bench aren't from the "Left" of the party should be welcome. I'd like to see Clive Lewis and David Lammy given bigger roles.
More purge bollocks.
Dodds an abysmal media performer and needs shifting. She’s not the only one.
"The buck stops anywhere but here"
“The buck stops anywhere but here”
Sorry? Have you missed me saying Starmer is boring? He needs the best team possible on the front bench, people who can make up for his very real weaknesses. It's not "passing the buck" to have a reshuffle to move aside those that need to be. Dodds comes across as the smart policy wonk in a treasury team, who has had to step in at the last minute for a TV interview she was never expecting, because the shadow chancellor tested positive for covid 20 minutes before air time.
Binners your massive list of excuses is exactly the reason why labour might lose in Hartlepool. Just like they did in Scotland, the labour party take seats like Hartlepool for granted, and treat the voters in them with utter contempt. Then when the voters start asking tricky questions such as 'what have you actually done for us over the past 30 years in return for our votes?', they have no response beyond telling them that's just they way things are and it's all the fault of other people. The problem isn't nasty lefties, Boris, Farage, the EU, or the bogeyman, it's the fault of labour party politicians who long ago forgot what they were there to do, which is fight for the interests of working people in places like Hartlepool.
I'm not going to predict the result in Hartlepool as it's too close to call (swinging towards them losing though), but I will confidently predict that they are heading for a collapse as we've seen in Scotland, and as we've seen in other countries where the 'workers party' stopped serving the workers. I almost look forward to it in fact, because until they disappear and make space for something new, the tories will go unchallenged.
I don’t subscribe to you very bizarre claim that safe Labour seats don’t matter as long as Labour wins the Tory marginals.
My theory? When did I say that? labour needs to regain its former safe seats and convince people in marginal seats to vote for them too, like they did in 3 elections from 1997
Incidentally: they're not 'Tory' marginals. They're just marginals
Instead it will be the fault of, first of all, an alleged Corbynite independent candidate, which kinda makes it Corbyn’s fault.
Theres nothing alleged about it:
https://twitter.com/MikeGapes/status/1376304169984929792?s=20
If you take a look on Twitter you'll see her supporters, the usual lefties, are gleefully relishing the prospect of Labour losing the seat. I've changed my mind. They're not a cult. They're a fifth column. The Tory's must be looking at this and absolutely laughing their tits off. I bet Boris can't believe his luck. His greatest asset - Jezza - may be gone, but his supporters just carry on delivering for him.
Cheers!
They’re a fifth column.
No, they're just people who have justifiably decided that the labour party does not represent them or the interests of working people, and so they need to try something else. The responsibility for that lies with the labour party leadership who arrogantly think the people they call racists and extremists will obediently stay in the party and do what they're told. I said a year ago that Starmer needed to work with and engage with the left otherwise they'd leave and cause problems for him. Well that's exactly how it's turning out, and the fact that you expect labour to lose Hartlepool as a result only confirms that.
Awaits, the “well, Blair started the move” which I will simply say, bollocks did he.
But he did. That's why we are where we are right now. The tories simply carried on what he'd started. Even Thatcher, when asked what was her greatest legacy, replied 'Tony Blair'.
Yabbering on about Labour is waste of time unless you’re centre-right.
Corbyn or Starmer – it doesn’t matter.
Neither of them would or will make any radical changes to UK society.
This is pretty much spot on.
Edited. There's no point getting into this argument. It's utterly pointless.
Well, you start the revolution then. Crack on. If you think it's impossible for a Labour government to effect any real change, then why do you care who is their party leader or what they are doing?
EDIT: oh, you've deleted your calls for revolution and your explanations as to why you think a Labour government led by anyone can't improve anything
Edited again. As bored as I am today, getting involved in this nonsense is about as productive as painting a cat. I'll leave you to it.
Delusion is thinking that leaving the Tories in power for the rest of our lives will result in any substantial change for the better. Still, as long as people are shifting "the debate", then someone is winning an argument, so that's fine.
EDIT: so you've deleted all your contribution again bridges ?
Why are you so angry with me?
I'm not angry... but the "can't change things by electing a different government" approach is one I find very unhelpful and defeatist. Revolution isn't coming. Elections still really matter in the UK. Replying to your [now deleted] comments isn't a sign of anger.
Well, you start the revolution then.
Well funny isn't it because when people like Thelma Walker try to do something people like Binners call them traitors! What I don't get is why you guys support a system which has given you all the things you profess to hate like brexit, racism, corruption etc. If you don't think it can be changed fine, but don't then have a go at the people who get off their arses and try and do something.
Elections still really matter in the UK.
The evidence shows otherwise.
Elections still really matter in the UK.
Why do you think this?
I’d like to see Clive Lewis and David Lammy given bigger roles.
So would I. Lewis could be a bit risky but Lammy should definitely be in there.
