[Closed] Sir Elton John receives the greatest gift of all!

You're projecting emotions onto me that I don't have.

Exactly - this is what I was referring to when I referenced sexual politics.

My initial comment still stands. If you happen to have ever heard Terry Wogan on Radio 2 he often used the expression "Is it just me?" to indicate a world weary slight incredulity at the way things are going in the modern world.

That's what I have in this case.

I'm 100% behind you on this point Rightplacerighttime. What Elton and Furnish have done is utterly ridiculous, morally wrong, pathetic and shallow, as are the actions of all the celebrities who 'buy' children even if it's under the pretence of adopting them; as is anyone who thinks it’s OK to ‘buy’ a child through surrogacy, celebrity or not, gay, straight, whatever.

And your comment about the 'modern world' is precisely where the argument is. It's degrading to the individual to start messing around with process of creation and by extension its degrading to society.

Yes the world is a better place than 50 years ago for a lot of reasons; greater equality and acceptance of peoples' sexuality, religious belief (actually I'm not sure that we are more tolerant of that right now but it's at least protected in law), gender, enthicity etc, would be top of that list.

But it's also a worse place because there has been a degradation of individual responsibility, respect for society, a widening of the gap between rich and poor. You can see those effects all around you. Kids grow up without a balanced set of role models, in poverty, or in extreme wealth, but still without a sense of respect for the world around them, without a sense of duty or moral obligation. They grow up with a self-righteous, celebrity obsessed, ‘because I’m worth it’ narcissism and then it’s OK to behave like a vain, shallow and pathetic shell of a human being.

There are consequences to everything and you can argue all you like about individual rights, libertarian values etc. I’m all for being more tolerant but I’m also for balancing that against the need to maintain some sort of individual responsibility and the issue of consequence nad moral balance that must go with it.

Elton and David happen to be gay and rich, anagallis_arvensis.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think I wrote [i]'I just think that being gay and rich shouldn't mean you can buy a life to satisfy your own needs but if you're straight and rich go for your life'[/i]

geetee - you're absolutely spot on, as you were also with your other post.

no pilot you didnt you confused the two issues together so we can make no judgement on what you think of them seperately just the same as many others on this thread are doing.

My view is that Elton is a bit old which is something that would deter me personnally but I can live with. I think the ability to buy a baby when the country you in denies you the right to adopt is also wrong. I do however passionatly believe that a child doesnt need a male and female set of parents

No confusion here, anagallis_arvensis.
Two gay people having a baby - doing it properly ie, the baby having access to both biological parents as well as the biological parents' partners if that's what they choose - is quite different from two people, gay or straight, buying a baby from a surrogate.

What I object to is people who have a child and don't put the needs of that child first. For instance, in my circumstance, and this is just because I'm gay, it's not that I'm being homophobic but I can only speak from my veiwpoint, if I were to have a baby with my gf and I gave birth to it, she would have nothing to do with it biologically. Sure they could have a relationship. Sure we could bring it up together. Sure the kid doesn't need a male and female parent present at all times but I think the kid does need to know where it comes from.
Put simply, if one day the child said to me 'who's my father?' I am not prepared to say 'dunno'. I think children have a right to know where they come from. Maybe it's just me - and Terry Wogan.
If you disagree, fine, just IMO.

no i would say i agree with you, its jusy earlier you didnt separate your arguement, and to be fair we dont know eltons intentions

*innocently whistles*

There we go anagallis_arvensis, we agree!
Now I can get on with my work, I've been avoiding it all morning 🙂

cheers for explaining the imagine line and reason

emsz
I'd imagine you could find any number of straight couples with those personality traits as well

Necroist.

I'll begin by saying Elton John's sexuality is, in my opinion of course, completely immaterial. The fact that he's totally removed from reality, however, is. Then again, I dont know him personally, so all the 'news' reported by the media about him may be a load of old rubbish. Basically, kids need security, love, and guidance. If Elton and his partner are able to provide this, then why not? The money side of things is less important, and is not always any sort of guarantee that things will turn out well (Paris Hilton, anybody?). I'm the (extremely proud) dad of four kids, the youngest two of which are adopted. I found the adoption process very difficult, hard questions asked on a regular basis and your private life picked apart by all and sundry, but it was worth it in the end. To say that kids deserve to know who their biological parents are is not always that straightforward though, as this is not always possible or indeed, in certain circumstances, safe or appropriate.

emsz; That was a pretty nasty attempt to start a witchhunt.If you feel so strongly about the OP's views,why not report the thread? Or would that have removed your right to be offended?

PS S/yeti....Elton can't Drive 😀

emsz duckman is christian iirc and that is just a vieled attack on your lifestyle choice because it offends his invisible friend.

Duckman, sorry just been through the thread and I missed your contribution, so dunno what I've done to offend.

The Pilot. I've not really given much thought to children TBH but I'd want the Childs father to be in it's life in some way, and would like to think I could choose wisely enough if/when that happens. I think we can both agree that being honest loving and open is best all around.

Edit: hang on were you the poster of the " joke" ? Right well, it's removal was nothing to do with me I think the mods just watch threads like these pretty closely and that was just to close to the bone for the record I don't agree with RIghttimes views but he's got a perfect right to say it.

Just to set the record straight I was the first one to mention the gay couple element of it, not emsz so to accuse her of starting a witch hunt is pretty pathetic. I still think there are certain people here who are more bothered by it than they care to let themselves realise but I can fully understand the issues raised with age/lifestyle etc. I still personally think that they haven't done anything wrong for reasons I have mentioned earlier so wont be saying anything else but don't, Duckman' accuse people of starting witch hunts because that's not what it was. It was a debate. Bye bye

Must admit. If it was me I'd miss my mother/mothers influence and question why daddy lives with a wet lettuce.

*notes for future reference who the massive homophobes are*

Must admit. If it was me I'd miss my mother/mothers influence and question why daddy lives with a wet lettuce.

but you might not have grown up as a daily mail reading idiot

yes, I am easily outraged. Nice edit, thank you. I don't read the daily fail though I must admit

Ummm actually it's my second comment, and it was aimed at you after you posted a joke offensive enough to be removed by the mods.

Ummm actually it's my second comment, and it was aimed at you after you posted a joke offensive enough to be removed by the mods.

I apologise, it was aimed at who ever did.

Junkyard,do keep up please.

but you might not have grown up as a daily mail reading idiot

To say that kids deserve to know who their biological parents are is not always that straightforward though, as this is not always possible or indeed, in certain circumstances, safe or appropriate.

Of course it's not barnsleymitch. But that's the whole point. We are not talking about a situation that life throws up and you have to deal with as best you can. David and Elton are gay, they therefore have to plan having a kid, they can therefore plan to have it with a person of good character and not someone who they're going to want/need to protect the child from.
Crikey, it's not hard is it? We're talking about a specific subject here. I never said or would say all children in all situations must have contact with both parents. If that's how it came over, I'm sorry I wasn't more clear.

Emsz - cool, hope it all works out if/when you decide to go for it.

Sorry, but this is ridiculous -

geetee1972 - Member

But it's also a worse place because there has been a degradation of individual responsibility, respect for society, a widening of the gap between rich and poor. You can see those effects all around you. Kids grow up without a balanced set of role models, in poverty, or in extreme wealth, but still without a sense of respect for the world around them, without a sense of duty or moral obligation. They grow up with a self-righteous, celebrity obsessed, ‘because I’m worth it’ narcissism and then it’s OK to behave like a vain, shallow and pathetic shell of a human being.

cinnamon_girl - Member
geetee - you're absolutely spot on, as you were also with your other post.

What?!?!

Seriously, what?!?!

All that geetee1972 did there was recycle some red top tabloid paranoia rant as his own opinion and you clapped. Unless I am wide of the mark and geetee1972 has carried out a qualified study into the effects on our culture of post-war prosperity, improved equality, an increased spread of wealth, greater social mobility, the advent of consumerism, celebrity culture, global trade blah blah etc.

Society is something that has been built by mankind; it's a false construct, the state of marriage is a false construct, the human family unit is a false construct, the 'rules' of sexuality are a false construct, human life is no more than a consequence of breeding and we are all FREE to do with it as we please - it is NOT sacred ...however society has built a set of rules that we follow because we are individually weak and blinded by moralistic claptrap spouted, in the main, by church, media & government.

So, my questions to geetee1972 and cinnamon_girl:

Why is it wrong to do what Elton John and David Furnish have done?

What does it mean when you write '[it's] degrading to the individual to start messing around with process of creation and by extension its degrading to society'?

Why does a child need a mother and a father?

And why is EJ & DF's behaviour 'utterly ridiculous, morally wrong, pathetic and shallow'?

Why is it wrong to do what Elton John and David Furnish have done?

ou want to knwo why it is wrong to buy a baby from someone?
Can you buy an adult or just a child?

No, I want you to tell me why you think it's wrong.

Can you buy an adult or just a child?

I'll happily buy a child... but first I need to know if they'll be good for heavy manual work? I'm thinking of putting a new patio in.

so you do want me to tell you why it is wrong to buy babies then 😯 It surprises that me that you need this explaining tbh and no doubt you will disagree. I dont think you should be able to buy human life however well intentioned it may be. Assuming you are ok with the trading of human life can i have an adult please? Much like TSY I need one but I think an adult will be much more skilled at the manual labour aspect of patio laying. A baby would be useless IMHO. As usual TSY has just not thought it through properly.

I'm not being argumentative, I just want to understand the reasoning behind some of the opinions and beliefs offered on this thread.

Of course I fully understand society's view on this but I'm simply trying to dig out why you, or anyone else, subscribes to that view.

Your post only explained that you think it's wrong, nothing was offered to support why you think it's wrong.

And FWIW the child isn't being bought for nefarious reasons; they just want to have a child of their own to love and bring up.

All that geetee1972 did there was recycle some red top tabloid paranoia rant as his own opinion and you clapped

Er no. I am quite capable of making up my own mind which comes from being married for some considerable time and having two children who are now adults. So actually I think I am perfectly qualified to comment.

Without wishing to come across as some boring old fogey, I do believe we all need to conform, in some way, and for me that meant within a family unit. This was how both myself and my ex husband had been bought up and we had both appreciated the stability of that family unit.

Naturally I accept this does not work for everyone. But what I do have a problem with is folk who think life is cheap and are more concerned with satisfying their own vanity. As has been mentioned, other 'famous' people such as Madonna have done similar.

A child is not a commodity and, believe me, they are bloomin' hard work particularly in their teenage years. It's a huge responsibility and I like to think I did a fairly good job.

Elton John's lifestyle surely does not bode well in the sense that he tours around the world so what happens to the child's education? Will the child be able to make lasting friendships? Will he have the balanced input that both a mother and a father can give? My son needed regular operations/hospital treatment from the age of 3 to 17 - I was always there for him. Could Elton if the situation arose?

Money does not solve everything. It takes more than that to be a good parent.

Finally, I will not apologise for my moral stance.

(now awaits some vitriol from somebody) 🙄

It's a huge responsibility and I like to think I did a fairly good job

I'll be the judge of that! Send your eldest born daughter (positive discrimination before anyone asks)...

c/o TSY
Yeti Towers

*wonders if [i]she'll[/i] be good to lay a patio*

At least I answered the question I notice you have failed , numerous times, to say whether it is ok to buy adults ...for non nefarious reasons and purley to love obviously ...lets say it is one of those wives from the Internet - so we even have an adult giving "consent" that OK? no moral issue with this?
Conversly a child,who cannot even offer consent,is ok because the adults who purchased it will Love it and bring it up-Clearly I am taking up a quite polarised version of this view but if you really cannot see the point I am making there is little point in digging further into what/why I think like this.

😆 TSY - she's no good for you cos she smokes! Is it OK to ask how you're doing on that front?

cinnamon_girl - I apologise if I offended you, and reading my post back it did sound a little bit rude. No harm meant but I stand by what I have written.

I simply couldn't understand geetee1972's dismal view on the youth of today and on society in general. I believe that we have a good society, far better than the likes of the Daily Express or Daily Mail would have us believe. I get really frustrated with that type of unfounded moral outrage because it is mainly a kneejerk reaction and almost always someone else's opinion recycled to make, IMO, a weak point.

I don't think that Zachary whatsisface will be in a worse situation than many other privileged children who might have the support of its parents and of the nanny staff, and I reckon that children are amazingly adaptable as long as they have love, shelter, education and emotional support. I hope that those things will all come to pass.

Junkyard - I didn't offer the opinion that it is OK to buy an adult, or a child for that matter, so I didn't feel it necessary to answer your question.

However, I think your point regarding consent of an unborn is important.

None of us consent to being born so the rule of consent must apply to all births whether money changes hands or not, so surely the real issue is what happens after birth. If the child is loved, nurtured, fed, sheltered does it matter on what 'moral' wave it rode into the world on?

I have no moral issues with internet brides as long as the marriage is one built on a foundation of love and support and that both people are under no duress to marry.

Naranjada - no, it's OK thanks! I wasn't offended cos I always wear a thick skin on here. 🙂

Fundamentally we may have a good society but there is a fairly large proportion that are devoid of any personal responsibility. The word 'shame' doesn't figure these days so these people will continue with their selfish behaviour/procreating profusely etc etc. I may be completely wrong here but doesn't geetee work in education?

Referring to certain children as 'privileged'? Not in my book, the love and warmth of your immediate family is paramount.

To answer the title of this thread; surely a 12lb cock?

c_g - good, and you are so right about love and warmth, I understand about that bit fully.

Most people say that modern life is not as good as life in, say, the 50s. There's less moral fibre nowadays, less accountability, less shame and I would probably agree with that from what I have read and seen, but what I don't understand is what has caused the change?

Hora - incorrigible!

And I think you meant 12", or is weight the new length?

C_G - Not too good this last week, kind of knew the festive period was going to be a problem 🙁

TSY - ah, that doesn't sound good. Did you succumb, or partake in an alternative? OK, be positive here - you stopped in November was it? You could have delayed til January, for obvious reasons, but you didn't so that seems to me that you are totally committed. Well done. 🙂

Now ... did you enjoy it? Honestly? C'mon His Awesomeness - yes, you can do it. 😀

OK Naranjada - whoa, there with the fatalistic, existentialist, nihilism there bro! I think I got you a bit hot under the collar there. Which is good. We should debate things even here on a bike forum. It’s what makes us human.

Yes, everything that you cite as being a false construct is a false construct. It all a sham. None of it is real. On that basis anyone is free to do whatever they want to do. I can come over there, rape and murder your wife and children and then bind you into slavery.

That’s a pretty nasty and radical example but I choose to use that example to prove a point.

I’m a pretty well educated individual; I have an undergraduate in Anthropology and a post graduate, equivalent to an M. Phil so while I am not an ‘expert’ on specific issues, I believe I have earned the right to hold a reasonably well informed opinion.

To clarify, I don’t read the ‘red tops’ although I am aware that there is a moral outrage that generally pervades a number of them. Also, my view is one of balance; I think in general the world is a much better place and I was very clear about that in my post. But there are good things and there are bad things and all I did was highlight the bad things.

Whatever your political persuasion, you can’t argue with what is happening; the issues I raised are a matter of record. What is open for debate is how you choose to interpret the world around you and that’s where we differ.

I think that what Elton and Furnish did is pathetic and morally wrong because it reduces the creation of a human life to financial transaction. Human beings are not false constructs; our psyche is not a false construct; ego is not a false construct; our need for food and shelter, to feel safe and protected from harm are not false constructs.

These human needs are what give rise to the false constructs you cite because they fulfil those needs in us.

Most people are terribly insecure (one of the reasons for there being so much intolerance in the world) and that is a very real experience. It’s degrading to the human condition and the human experience to realise that you exist because someone ‘paid’ for you to exist.

Now here’s the good part. I’ll give you the counter argument to that: You exist because someone ‘paid’ for you to exist rather than enacted your existence because of love.

I’ve reflected a lot on this thread and in some ways I’ve changed my views.

I think ‘The Pilot’s’ view is the one that I would now subscribe to; that a child needs at least to be connected to both a mother and their father as far as is possible and that no one should allow such an exclusion.

geetee - firstly apologies as I have done you a disservice by thinking you were in education. 😳

That was a very thought-provoking reply from you. It's probably a good job that we will never know the in's and out's of Elton John's arrangement.

TSY is like the guy who tries to break up the pub fight.... <come on bud, it's not worth it>....... lets go somewhere else...