You can join the Army in this country at 16
Which requires parental consent.
Maybe listen to the podcast and read about her case a bit before spending that much time typing?
Sounds like she was groomed. I'd let the courts decide her fate as a citizen of this country that she is, the dual nationality is a red herring.
I’d let the courts decide her fate as a citizen of this country that she is, the dual nationality is a red herring.
Might not even get to that. It might get to the be that the CPS find there is no case for her to answer or no realistic chance of a successful prosecution.
Doesn't mean she won't be on a watchlist for the the rest of her life mind. But she might not be in jail and she'll be back with family so that's a plus.
A ****ing debacle is what it is. Yet another example to the world that we have elected ****ing clowns as leaders.
Doesn’t mean she won’t be on a watchlist for the the rest of her life mind
To be fair, we don't particularly have a very good track record of 'watching' individuals that are known to be a potential terrorist threat
I believe that joining ISIS was/is a crime under UK law.
Which law would that be?
Although I am very happy to be corrected.
Well, there's no such thing as "UK Law" for a start off.
@relapsed_mandalorian agree, I'm not sure what charges could be brought against her, but she needs a path to be heard and have her name cleared in the court of public opinion, because the government have othered her to such an extent I fear it wouldn't be safe for her to return at present.
I suspect a change of government will be required and an apology made. The concern here is that the nut jobs would still see her as a threat. Really Johnson would need to apologise, but considering his character that's not going to happen. Christ he kept Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe locked up longer due to his ineptitude so I can't see him actually doing the right thing ever.
Which law would that be?
Uk laws covering the prosecution of individuals involved in terrorism overseas. I posted a link earlier that you apparently missed:
It is published by the Crown Prosecution Service.
ISIS is classed as a terrorist organisation in the UK.
I assume it would be joining a prescribed organisation, sits under the Terrorism Act. That's as much as I could be arsed to Google at this time. What sort of sentence that carries who knows, but yeah, let the system do its work and what falls out, falls out.
I think the govt knew which way it would go so they did what they did to chalk it up as a win.
"To be fair, we don’t particularly have a very good track record of ‘watching’ individuals that are known to be a potential terrorist threat"
That's not Begum's fault.
let the system do its work and what falls out, falls out.
my thoughts exactly. If she’s committed a crime put her on trial in the uk. Is she hasn’t then there is no justification for not letting her back into the uk.
I know a bloke who only did 8 years for kicking someone to death. He’s been deemed ‘rehabilitated’ and given a second chance by society, yet this lass has been found guilty without trial with no second chances forthcoming
but then again he’s not brown..
The idea that Shamima Begum is a potential terrorist is ludicrous.
She is no more likely of being a terrorist than millions of other UK residents.
I don't know why it is even being suggested.
I don't think she is. She either, by choice or coercion went off and got involved with a terrorist organisation.
Doesn't make her a terrorist, but she appears to have committed an offence in doing so.
Until such a time the govt stop ****ing about and let the legal processes run their course unimpeded, we'll never know.
Although I imagine she wouldn't get a moments peace if she came back. The patriots would harass the shit out of her.
I think it's all to do with this guy...... and the B word (sorry)
I think the Tories (and their base) were so incensed about their inability to "get rid" of this bloke - what what we have with Begum is a determination to show that the UK, with it's newly returned sovereignty, and having now taken back control for those unelected beurocrats in brussels, can now successfully eject a terrorist from our shores without having to worry about pesky like things human rights etc
I kind of put it in the same category as JRM wanting to return to imperial measurements - it's a rather desperate and ham-fisted attempt to try to show the boomers that Britain is no longer constrained by Europe/the ICC/ EU human rights directive etc etc. WE CAN EAT AS MANY BENDY BANANAS AS WE LIKE! "Can't make somebody stateless?!?! Says who? - we've taken back control!"
OBVIOUSLY the cases are completely dissimilar/unconnected: except in the mind of the daily Mail reader..... where they are the same in one important regard.
what we have with Begum is a determination to show that the UK, with it’s newly returned sovereignty, and having now taken back control for those unelected beurocrats in brussels, can now successfully eject a terrorist from our shores without having to worry about pesky like things human rights etc
It has nothing to do with that. Shamima Begum was stripped of her British citizenship whilst the UK was still an EU member state.
Plenty of people have been stripped of their British citizenship in recent years. The law allowing it was relaxed in 2006 under a Labour government and ten years before even the EU referendum , it was totally compatible with EU membership:
Belgium, France, Germany, and the Netherlands , all EU member states, also have policies of citizenship deprivation as counterterrorism measures:
https://brill.com/view/journals/emil/22/3/article-p338_2.xml?language=en</s
But we'll done for mentioning brexit anyway, I feel it was what was missing from this thread - every thread discussing contentious issues should deviate away from the subject and blame brexit.
But we’ll done for mentioning brexit anyway
And congratulations for missing the point completely Ernie. Perhaps the sarcasm in my post was a bit too nuanced?
it’s a rather desperate and ham-fisted attempt to try to show the boomers that Britain is no longer constrained by Europe/the ICC/ EU human rights directive etc etc. WE CAN EAT AS MANY BENDY BANANAS AS WE LIKE! “Can’t make somebody stateless?!?! Says who? – we’ve taken back control!”
But we’ll done for mentioning brexit anyway, I feel it was what was missing from this thread – every thread discussing contentious issues should deviate away from the subject and blame brexit.
But that's OK, because "for balance" we'll always have you leaping up to defend it and tell us that other causal factors may be available.
we’ll always have you leaping up to defend it
And yet that is exactly what I don't bother doing - I get incessantly criticized for not doing so.
The same here on this thread. I have pointed out that Shamima Begum being stripped of her citizenship has bugger all to do with brexit, it happened when the UK was still in the EU, citizenship deprivation has been happening for years, and currently happens in several EU member states.
I have no desire to 'leap to defend brexit' or discuss the pros and cons of EU membership. It has **** all to do with the subject matter.
And congratulations for missing the point completely Ernie. Perhaps the sarcasm in my post was a bit too nuanced?
Yeah far too subtle for me. I hadn't realised that you were being sarcastic and pointing out that Shamima Begum's case had nothing to do with brexit.
But in how many of those cases did the person being stripped of citizenship NOT have dual citizenship? My understanding is that under international law it is illegal to leave a person stateless as the U.K. shamim a
^^^ This.
My understanding is that under international law it is illegal to leave a person stateless as the U.K. shamim a
It is, unfortunately it has been upheld by the Supreme Court as they claimed that she had the right of Bangladeshi citizenship. That might have been the case but she hasn't now, she would have needed to apply before she was 21 years old.
Yeah far too subtle for me. I hadn’t realised that you were being sarcastic and pointing out that Shamima Begum’s case had nothing to do with brexit.
her case doesn’t (obviously?) - but I think the governments response does, particularly from a government/party/supporter base that was so frustrated at not being able to extradite Abu Hamza, and who have been leaning heavily on blatantly populist themes throughout the leave campaign. To admit that they can’t just disown begum because it would violate international law probably brought them all out in hives, and would probably be quite confronting for their supporter base. I thought that was pretty clear from my post, but maybe not.
Do I think she should have her citizenship re-instated and let straight back in? No
So this above, completely and utterly contradicts your other point below
Do I think she should come to the UK and face trial? For what?
Why was her citizen ship removed? Because she committed some crimes against the UK as a UK citizen.
If you accept that removal of citizen ship is an appropriate response to the crimes she committed, you first have to try her for those crimes, as a brit, and innocent until proven guilty, that means bringing here home and trying her.
You can't have one without the other.
As an aside:
Removal of citizen ship is a barbaric act which should never happen, it only happened because she is "not the right colour and not from here." (My quotes because some people cannot seem to get over this.) Which is in fact bollocks, she was born here and has natural rights here. Imagine if they did this to Sarah Smith born in Barnsley???
It’s you that’s bringing skin colour into it. Why are people always banging on about ‘brown people’ on this forum lately. It’s bloody embarrassing.
Maybe in a few years when we’re at war with Russia, if Sally Smith from Barnsley leaves for Moscow to marry a captain in the Russian army then she can have her citizenship revoked too. Assuming she’s dual nationality Bangladeshi too so she’s not left stateless.
Isn’t her husband Dutch anyway? Would it not be easier to get into Holland?
Isn’t her husband Dutch anyway? Would it not be easier to get into Holland?
What a daft comment. She is British, it should be easy for her to get into the UK.
Her husband is held captive by Kurdish forces btw.
And if you think she wouldn't be treated differently if she had white skin and an Anglo-Saxon name you must be living in fantasy land.
Aye right, but she left for Islamic State. Is it the UK’s fault that that didn’t pan out as mad lols (who knew?).
If I left the UK to become a Thai but got bored of the humidity and happy endings and decided I wanted to be British again I’d have to apply at immigration or do what everyone else does and jump on a dingy. Why all the drama?
I really don’t think an Anglo Saxon name would make a difference btw. Class maybe.
An actual white woman islamic terrorist. sold her story to the sun. Seems to still have her UK citizenship
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samantha_Lewthwaite
Both irrelevant as a: they’re both British as opposed to dual nationality so couldn’t have their citizenship revoked anyway. And b: one’s hiding in Kenya and doesn’t want to come back and the other is dead.
But top marks for attempting to make everything about racism.
If I left the UK to become a Thai but got bored of the humidity and happy endings and decided I wanted to be British again
I don't know what you are talking about. She has only ever been British. Going abroad doesn't automatically mean that you lose your nationality.
as opposed to dual nationality
Have you not read anything about this case? She does not have dual nationality and never has had. She could have applied for Bangladeshi nationality but she didn't. Why should she - she is British, having Bangladeshi nationality would have made no sense.
Furthermore her right to Bangladeshi nationality expired when she became 21 years old, Bangladesh has publicly stated that she won't be allowed Bangladeshi nationality.
She does not have dual nationality and the UK has made her stateless. A disgusting and shameful act which you would not expect from a civilised country.
Britian says that a 15 year old has no right to make legal decisions, and yet the British state can strip a 15 year old child of her citizenship if they feel that she has made the wrong decision.
But top marks for attempting to make everything about racism.
Slow hand clap for pretending that this tragic case has nothing to do with racism and bigotry.
Wot Ernie said!
Its obvious racism and islamophobia designed to play well in the right wing press and the tory party faithful
Its obvious racism and islamophobia designed to play well in the right wing press and the tory party faithful
I've not seen you all tirelessly campaigning for her return, which is surprising as you're all so seemingly disgusted by her circumstances. It's not new news
It's equally the usual left wing jizz fest to jump on a virtuous bandwagon now it's been rattled around in the press again. Isn't it?
I'm pretty sure the majority opinion in this thread is for her tonreturn and face whatever charges the crown sees fit, but don't let that get in your way. 🙂
I’ve not seen you all tirelessly campaigning for her return, which is surprising as you’re all so seemingly disgusted by her circumstances. It’s not new news
Because of course you are always out tirelessly campaigning for all those issues which you express strongly held veiws on here?
Although unless you follow TJ around I can't imagine how you would know what he does and doesn't do.
Because of course you are always out tirelessly campaigning for all those issues which you express strongly held veiws on here?
Although unless you follow TJ around I can’t imagine how you would know what he does and doesn’t do
Ok strawman....
What strongly held views do I express on here that I should be campaigning for to further my cause? It's mostly cynicism if you care to properly observe my interjections
I said 'all', it just happened to be Jeremy's post that I quoted
It’s mostly cynicism if you care to properly observe my interjections
Fair point. I probably don't properly observe your "interjections". I pick up drivel like this :
It’s equally the usual left wing jizz fest to jump on a virtuous bandwagon now it’s been rattled around in the press again. Isn’t it?
by simply scanning your posts, I don't feel they are really worthy of much more than that.
The need to insult does suggest a strong view about something but I am happy to accept that strong views might be a tad too profound for you 👍
It’s equally the usual left wing jizz fest to jump on a virtuous bandwagon now it’s been rattled around in the press again. Isn’t it?
egh? How is it “left wing” to want a member of a terrorist group to return to the uk to be tried and (if appropriate) prosecuted? That’s practically what every poster here is saying - and seems completely fair/logical.
Or is it now “left wing” to want the UK to comply with international law now? Or give somebody a trial before punishment is dispensed?
So what do you think of the case?
was the government right to remove her British citizenship without any kind of due process?
where do you sit on the “trafficked or terrorist” issue?
I think it's pretty widely accepted amongst the majority here that
1) she shouldn't have been made stateless
And
2) if there is a case to answer she should be allowed to return and undergo due process. If there isn't then the question is moot.
Sure, she made shit choices and she may not be likeable as a person for whatever reason you choose. But you can't choose who justice applies to on that, or any basis. Because once you do it's a dark road ahead.
I don't understand why this needs pointing out.
“this place is an echo-chamber” in 5, 4, 3……
by simply scanning your posts, I don’t feel they are really worthy of much more than that.
Yet here you are engaging. You feel that you can challenge what I say with contempt, yet merely scan because my opinions aren't worthy?
Sounds about right
The need to insult does suggest a strong view about something but I am happy to accept that strong views might be a tad too profound for you 👍
So calling out a left wing virtue signalling huddle because a long standing human rights issue has all of a sudden become topical again is insulting, but screaming racist at any other opinion is just fine and dandy? Of course it is, it's STW
JFC.
calling out a left wing virtue signalling
You keep banging on about this being a left-wing issue and whilst I fully accept that justice is an issue which tends to preoccupy left-wingers it is not as clear cut as you make it out to be .
David Davis is a very senior Tory who is firmly on the right-wing of the Tory Party. This is what he has had to say on the issue:
"Disappointing verdict in the Supreme Court. Regardless of what individuals like Shamima Begum have done, the UK cannot simply wash our hands of Brits in the Syrian camps. The correct approach would be to return them to the UK to answer for their crimes."
https://www.hull****/news/hull-east-yorkshire-news/david-davis-wades-shamima-begum-5052911
Every one of Enrielynch posts on this page have taken the words right out of my mouth. 100% agree.
You keep banging on about this being a left-wing issue
Primarily because this is a lefty hand wringing echo chamber*.......
And this is where the current discussion is happening
*There you go, just for you batfink 😉
Ahhhhhh I see.
Because you think STW is full of lefttards, whatever the majority view is here, that then automatically becomes your new definition of left wing? Regardless of what is actually said?
and because we are saying things that meet your new definition of left wing, it further reinforces your opinion that we are all “left wing”?
He’s got us skewered! How could we possibly hope to compete with such a towering intellect!
