Again, I’m not, and congratulations for finally reading something.
I was fully aware of the doubts concerning whether Lord Haw-Haw was actually British, but thanks for your congratulations anyway.
Although I still completely fail to see the connection between Shamima Begum and someone who was hung nearly 80 years ago.
A much better comparison, if you really want to make one, is the case of my local Tory councillor, Maria Garland, who lives two road away from me.
Maria Gatland joined the Provisional IRA not as a 15 year old child but as an adult woman. Unlike Shamima Begum Maria Gatland was a rather more significant figure in the Provisional IRA, she actively helped them to secure weapons to commit acts of terrorism against the UK.
Maria Gatland has never been punished for her membership and involvement in a terrorist organisation which, unlike ISIS, specifically targeted the UK.
Unlike Shamima Begum Maria Gatland's guilt is unquestionable - she doesn't deny her active involvement in a terrorist organisation which targeted the UK. In fact she has even written a book about her involvement in the Provisional IRA.
Maria Gatland has never been denied entry into the UK. She hasn't even had her Conservative Party membership withdrawn ffs. She currently stands in elections as a Conservative Party candidate - despite the fact that as a grown adult woman she became an active member of an anti British terrorist organisation, to emphasis the point.
Maria Gatland is white and middle-class.
Make what you will of that blatant hypocrisy.
Do we have an argument here between two people who pretty much agree?
White middle clas and female. The majority of those who quit Europe to join ISIS or fight against Bashar were male. Seems sexist that attention is given mainly to female cases. Begum is and isolated female who left whilst under 18 just as there are many males in the same situation.
The case of ex-IRA is not comparable as there's been an amnesty.
Interesting point re IRA.
There has been significant rapprochement around events that happened in Ireland - the Good Friday Agreement for example, and prisoner releases that followed. None of that as far as I know has happened with ISIS. This could be more a factor than the class/race of the individuals in these two examples.
Nah, Maria Gatland's involvement in a terrorist organisation that targeted the UK was known to the authorities long before the Good Friday Agreement.
The Good Friday Agreement was in 1998. Maria Gatland was writing articles about her involvement in the Provisional IRA for the Observer newspaper in 1972.
Edit: Just to add - people who come to Maria Gatland's defence, eg the Tory Party, claim that she was a young woman who was misled and made the wrong choices.
Maria Gatland was an adult 21 year old when she became an active member of a terrorist organisation. Shamima Begum was a 15 year old child when along with some friends she went to Syria.
I was mainly refering to her current position she not the only person to go from the IRA to politician and even MP.
she not the only person to go from the IRA to politician and even MP.
Which further highlights the hypocrisy of the Shamima Begum case.
I think she is probably the only member of the Tory Party though. Apparently what Gatland did wasn't as bad as what Shamima Begum did. Begum loses her birthright, Gatland doesn't even lose her Tory Party membership.
Gatland is Irish, not British. She joined the Provisional IRA, left and, if you believe the accounts, informed on them and was hidden by special branch. She was a member for less than a year.
She IS/Was a terrorist and later become traitor (in the eyes of the PIRA) and an informer to the British. Why would we deny her entry?
It's almost the exact opposite of the Begum case.
Gatland is Irish, not British.
How on earth do you know that she doesn't hold a UK passport? Have you got a link?
She was a member for less than a year.
Is there any evidence that Shamima Begum even joined ISIS, let alone became actively involved?
an informer to the British.
So Shamima Begum's "crime" boils down to her not being able to provide the UK government with useful information?
How on earth do you know that she doesn’t hold a UK passport? Have you got a link?
SHe was born in Dublin to Irish parents - she may have a British passport now, but that's totally irrelevant.
Is there any evidence that Shamima Begum even joined ISIS, let alone became actively involved?
She admitted this during her interviews with the press.
So Shamima Begum’s “crime” boils down to her not being able to provide the UK government with useful information?
No. Her crime is, perhaps, leaving the UK to actively fight against the UK in a war/action in which we were an active participant.
Derailed by argumentative pedants desparate to have the last word. Welcome to STW... 🙄
Fair.
It's not derailed. You can carry on talking about whether Shamima Begum was trafficked or a terrorist as much as you want, there's nothing stopping you.
Apart from perhaps the fact that there isn't much left to say.
The hypocrisy surrounding this story is a legitimate area of concern. In fact the first post on this thread after the OP makes that very point:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-63736944
I'm sure that fact that Rhianan Rudd is white and has an Anglo-Saxon name is just a "coincidence".
Regardless of whether she was trafficked or a willing participant she should be returned to the UK and given a trial if necessary. I think one of the main issues is that she doesn’t come across as remorseful or particularly likeable when interviewed. Sadly how you come across in the media accounts for a lot. It shouldn’t but it does.
For what it’s worth I think she was trafficked. She doesn’t seem particularly bright and therefore could’ve been an easy mark. Sounds like she has been through hell and back and needs some real support. Instead she’s become a pawn in some weird government and media game.
She admitted this during her interviews with the press.
I doubt she had any real choice in that. She became property to be handed to whomever isis fighter they put her with.
Trafficked, or terrorist? Neither really in my opinion. But it's kind of hard to feel sorry for her. If she's not even remorseful herself then who even cares? If a tree falls in the woods... If there's no public appetite to bring her back then why bother exerting the effort. She wanted to leave for Islamic State, she in an Islamic State - Syria. Have fun x
just a reminder, that a 15 year old 'made that decision'. Maybe younger, she was 15 when she went IIRC.
And a pair of pre teens were convicted of torturing and killing a small boy.
They were held responsible for their actions. Should she be treated any differently?
They were held responsible for their actions. Should she be treated any differently?
she’d need to be tried in a court with all that entails. Pretty tricky to do when you’ve had your citizenship taken away. Reinstate it, bring her back and present any evidence of terrorist activity to see if it warrants prosecution.
^ that exactly. I was responding to the 'she wanted to live in an Islamic state, she's in one now' comment.
And a pair of pre teens were convicted of torturing and killing a small boy.
Utterly disgusting that they were. Pure abuse of the legal process. England is one of the very few countries in the world they would have been.
Not that that has anything to do with Begum
just a reminder, that a 15 year old ‘made that decision’. Maybe younger, she was 15 when she went IIRC.
... after they'd been grooming her for two years prior, no?
Not that that has anything to do with Begum
Maybe there is a similarity in that it was 'political'. Assume you're talking about the Liverpool case. Then to treat those two boys any differently would've had the public howling, like bringing Shamima back.
Anyway, even if they hadn't been paraded like in a medievel circus the end result would've been the same: banged up in a secure unit for years followed by lifetime monitoring.
https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/shamima-begum/
I think she should be forced to face UK justice.
Obviously tried as a child.
What crime do you think she committed? I don't see what UK crime could have been committed.
She is a victim in all this and now a political football used for the tories to score points. More victimisation
I believe that joining ISIS was/is a crime under UK law.
Although I am very happy to be corrected.
I'm firmly in the tried as a child in the country of her birth camp. If she was middle class and white she'd be back before now.
Beyond my legal knowledge but I am fairly sure that you cannot be tried in the UK for a crime committed outside the UK so she would have had to join a proscribed organisation while in the UK - a bit of a stretch IMO
Edit - Lord Haw haw was tried and executed. Dunno if that was under UK law tho
Didn't she break the law by traveling internationally under 16 without parental consent?
A pretty petty crime Merak if it is one.
"I am fairly sure that you cannot be tried in the UK for a crime committed outside the UK"
This should cover it:
I've always thought she was a political football and is being kicked by the state. The BBC podcast is reconfirming my thoughts towards this.
But I agree with the idea of reinstating her citizenship, it's a disgrace that the government even considered this let alone enacted it, and then put her on trial for whatever crime they believe she has committed.
I think in years to come this will be looked back on with horror that the state can do this to a child.
I think in years to come this will be looked back on with horror that the state can do this to a child.
I hope that this awful series of events becomes a lesson in how to do things in a proper spirit of justice and fairness.
If anyone has a bridge in London they'd like to sell me...
I'm not going to enter the debate about crime or not; punishment or not etc; however, I watched that programme last night and the single most distasteful thing I observed was the moment the 'interviewer' (ITN possibly but could be wrong) was conducting an interview (live???) with her and read out the letter about the removal of citizenship. No matter anything else, that was, IMHO, shameful.
Ta Ernie.
Do you mean this fazzini?
Yeah that vid ^ is dickish behaviour. She’s a kid ffs, regardless what she’s done a little human decency is in order
took the news better than I would tbf…
Yeh - that's the one @ernielynch - tbh i was half asleep but that moment stuck with me as being plain wrong regardless of circumstance
The reality in all this is that she is brown and has a funny sounding name. If she was white anglo saxon and called Sarah Smith she'd be back home with a book deal, hitting the chat circuit, doing I'm a celeb, and probs be a judge on strictlycomexfactorden.
Haw Haw was US born and an informer for the Brits in Ireland and then legged it to Germany.
I think in years to come this will be looked back on with horror that the state can do this to a child.
I think we've been seeing this for centuries, from children being hanged for petty cases of theft, to lifetime deportation, to ignoring testimony of sexual abuse at the hands or the clergy or in council run care homes.
I think we’ve been seeing this for centuries, from children being hanged for petty cases of theft, to lifetime deportation, to ignoring testimony of sexual abuse at the hands or the clergy or in council run care homes.
Its this barbaric old testament attitude that people are somehow not "people" when they do something bad. Othering.
Scary.
Sort of, the above have been aimed a number of children.
In this case the state turned on a single citizen and removed their rights, it's got reactionary tory bollocks written all over it, playing to the daily mail crowd. And that's what's most disturbing, this government will gladly destroy a life to shore up its base.
^This pretty much, she was a minor was she not when she 'did the thing'?
Also highly likley there was coercion/grooming involved.
My all means try her under UK law, but removing citizenship in such a fringe case with so many question marks around it, stinks of making an example out of her to appease a certain audience, rather than real justice.
I'm not going to express an opinion as to whether she was trafficked or left of her own will to join ISIS - as I simply don't know
Do I think she should have her citizenship re-instated and let straight back in? No
Do I think she should be left to rot in a Syrian refugee camp? No
Do I think she should come to the UK and face trial? For what?
Maybe a sensible course of action would be extraction to a neutral country for a pychological assessment to determine whether she has been influenced by ISIS. She could no doubt seek asylum in said safe country and continue her quest to return to the UK following asessment.
Any return to the UK on any grounds, she would likely be granted asylum in any case. There would no doubt be a hugely expensive legal aid funded court case to regain citizenship, that she would likely win. Maybe the Times could fund this (seeing as she's now their poster girl) in the inevitable case that she will ultimately be allowed to return at some point?
*Obviously I have a contentious question to pose. She left to 'join ISIS' 6 months before her 16th birthday, when she was nothing but a child who couldn't possibly have made that decision sensibly and of her own free will. So how many of you (considering you are mostly hardcore Labour supporters), support the proposal to allow circa 1.5 million 16/17 year olds the right to vote in the election of this country's next government?
You can join the Army in this country at 16, I'm sure some 15.5 yr olds are at that age considering it. It's not unreasonable to believe that Shamima was possibly considering joining ISIS forces of her own free will
