[Closed] Settle an argument...

British Leyland

/EOT

My experience is older stuff often did last better and could be repaired. My last central heating obliger lsted 13 years. My parents used to have on that was 3 times that age. I have a deore mech on one bike that is 20 years old and is much much better than a modern one - no slop in the pivots because it has proper bushings

However in some things like cars quality has certainly improved 60 000 miles used to see cars worn out

I had an STX rear mech on my first MTB in 1992 - it was floppy as hell in about a year. The whole bike was far poorer quality than an equivalent bike now. Andthe modern one comes with hyro discs and air suspension.

It's true that some things get better or worse as time goes on - Marzocchi, for instance. But overall, manufacturing tech has improved hugely, and cheaper stuff is better than cheap stuff used to be.

When was the last time you were in a car with holes in the floor?

Less crap in older times.

It was repaired too, not thrown out.

I don't buy that rear mechs are better or worse than they used to be. They seem the same to me - they are certainly made in the same ways.

My last central heating obliger lsted 13 years. My parents used to have on that was 3 times that age.

Ok but two key points:

1) How much did theirs cost vs yours

2) How efficient was it? Cos this might come under my point 3 above.

There's more cheap stuff AND more high quality stuff.

Some companies make money from high volume, low quality. Others from low volume high quality. And, everything in between.

Japan used to make high volume, low quality, but through lean processing and a focus on quality they actually produce high quality, high volume products.

It all depends on where you look, and what you're benchmarking against.

Quality has the capability to always be better, year on year, due to learning from failures and mistakes. Volumes also goes the same way, as you lean back production, reduce cost and increase throughput.

However, margins will determine what trade-off a you want to make as a company for your product, based on the market you're going after.

Short answer is - the spectrum is far wider than it was before for quality and cost. Depending on what you're willing to pay, you can get extremely high quality or extremely low quality.

If your benchmark is a single product in a specific domain,and this increase in spectrum sees that your benchmark product fell right at the top of the quality - it then *appears* that quality has fallen overall.

Conversely, if your single product in a specific domain was poor to begin with, and the spectrum has increased, then you'll think quality has overall increased.

Therefore, your perception of the evolution of quality is relative. Therefore, using specific examples to compare against is likely to cause disagreement.

Less crap in older times.

Yes but see point 1

It was repaired too, not thrown out.

Because it was expensive. And also related to point 3 - more complex stuff is more difficult to repair - but often better in use.

Well put rickon, that's what I was getting at.

However, margins will determine what trade-off a you want to make as a company for your product, based on the market you're going after.

In 1930 the only market for TVs was high value for rich people. That's why they were made in mahogany cabinets. Poor people didn't get mahogany, they got nothing.

Now there are still £10k tellies for rich people, but the poor can now get one for £120.

I refer you to hope pro 2 evo hubs.

Cars are certainly better.. Mainly Japanese ones though. Not Citroën or Peugeot.

So I'm on the fence.

It's difficult because we have a throwaway culture, I'd rather resole a nice pair of shoes rather buy new ones.

Chuckles at "old timers". 😀

I don't think it's as straight forward as that - yeah back in the day stuff was made more serviceable even little things like toasters would use more generic parts and when they broke down you can fix them or have a man do it for you so yeah you could make them last longer - these days not so much, but improved manufacturing methods mean that even cheap crap will do what it's meant to do for a decent amount of time before it fails.

There are things about now, especially domestic stuff that is the best of both - well made and serviceable the Mieles of the world and you can still buy very good quality furniture that will last generations.

It's difficult because we have a throwaway culture

Really? People in the past repaired stuff because they had to - they couldn't afford new stuff. Because new stuff was so expensive, it was worth paying someone to repair it.

Pepole haven't changed, jsut their economic situation.

Yeh, built in redundancy..

Central heating boiler broke down? needs a new PCB that costs about 50p to make.

That'll be £200 to you.

I'm not sure how true this is but i am of the belief that white goods manufacturing had a sweet spot in the early-mid 90's when all the niggles and faults were ironed out and the manufacturers were feeling rather smug with themselves.......until they realised that the quality of their products was so good that they never broke down, they never needed repairing, they never needed replacing, so since then they have deliberately built in a working cycle of redundancy so you have to buy new items.

I moved into my council bungalow back in 1993 at 21yrs old, i still have the original fridge, original freezer, original cooker and i only had to replace my original washing machine last year when there was a low power issue feed into my house when the machine was running which slowed the motor right down and it went bang, the electronics/pcb board also went pop, it also burnt out the motor in my Kitchenaid coffee grinder which i was using at the time - it slowed right down then went bang and burned out, all the house lights dimmed right down but thankfully nothing else was damaged.

You can still fix toasters btw, they are very simple. You can fix all sorts. I fixed our microwave for example, turntable stopped working. In the past, most people would've paid someone to fix it because it would've cost the equivalent of about £500, so it was worth a £60 repair job. But now the same thing only costs £80, so it's not. And the fact they cost £80 is good in many ways because everyone can own one and get the benefit. (Ok so it's not good for the environment but that's another topic).

Would you like to hear about old Hoover washing machines? Mine coped with nappies, at one time both kids were in nappies. Needed repairing several times each year, regular as clockwork.

I've mentioned before that, imo, Miele products went downhill yet 20 years or so ago they were good quality and reliable.

It's difficult because we have a throwaway culture, I'd rather resole a nice pair of shoes rather buy new ones.

This is really interesting. We're coming out of an age of mega-large organisations that produce huge volumes of low quality products. To an age of small start-ups, who can service the unique needs of super-niche markets.

You want a pair of shoes that'll last forever, and are just resoled? You'll be able to find someone already owning that niche, either right now, or very soon in the future.

Without being too future-casting, quality is likely to become a moot point in the near future, as we move away from ownership and into access. We're seeing this in media consumption, vehicle use, services, and it'll start to edge into other facets in our lives - clothing and leisure etc.

Why would you be concerned with quality, if you don't own anything, only access it for a day? The next day the clothes you wore are cleaned or repaired, and ready for use by someone else, and a brand new set of clothes are ready for you in your wardrobe looking brand new.

Quality becomes the sole concern of the provider, not the consumer.

[quote=rickon ]Quality becomes the sole concern of the provider, not the consumer.
I see what you did there....

so since then they have deliberately built in a working cycle of redundancy so you have to buy new items.

I don't believe that.

In the 90s washing machines had clockwork controllers that had millions of intricate mechanical parts that were doomed to fail. Now they have chips, which will work forever more or less.

What happens is that they got the reliability nailed, so they start being more ambitious with their designs and they reach the acceptable standard of reliability that people accept. They no longer compete on reliability, because people will care more about the features than if it lasts 15 or 20 years.

But that doesn't mean they are designing them deliberately to break.

back in 1993 at 21yrs old, i still have the original fridge, original freezer, original cooker and i only had to replace my original washing machine last year

How much did they call cost?

Pepole haven't changed, jsut their economic situation.

Theres another economic situation though. Natural selection selects against manufacturers of quality, serviceable, repairable goods. If you make a product that lasts forever you'll run out of people to sell it to and you'll run out of vendors prepared to sell it.

A classic case in point - the good old fashioned milk float. They were genuinely ever-lasting and ever-servicable. So much so the manufacturer was out of business decades before the floats were out of service. The ones you remember from the 70s and 80s were floats from the 50s and 60s that the dairys had just put new bodies on. The company that had built them - as successful as the floats were - was long gone.

So whats the point - economically - of making or selling a product that loses you a customer?

I think today though - even though we're increasingly a service based economy we're also a culture that loathes paying for service - we hate the idea of paying for service maintenance or repair so we're drawn to products that promise to be maintenance free - even if that results in them also being un-maintainable and unserviceable. We'd rather buy a new 'thing' than give any of our hard-earned to one of the 'middlemen' that gets between us and 'stuff'.

Mine coped with nappies, at one time both kids were in nappies. Needed repairing several times each year, regular as clockwork.

We put reusable nappies in our Hotpoint, without a soak or anything; it worked fine, and still does - 10 years old.

Fair point molgrips, but there's still a disparity in society that punishes the poor.

Lets take shoes for example, an affluent person can buy a £100 pair nice leather shoes that will easily last 5 years.

Add on 50 quid for a resole, and their shoes cost £30 per year.

A cheap pair of fake leather shoes from tkmaxx cost £30 and might last 6 months because they don't have a hundred quid to buy a decent pair of shoes. They are paying double at £60 per year, because they are not in a financial position to be buying quality foot wear. Unless it's on finance through a catalogue company that will rinse them on interest

Natural selection selects against manufacturers of quality, serviceable, repairable goods.

So they stop making milk floats and start making something else...? Something that is more likely these days perhaps with companies being owned by bigger parents and their capabilities being shared.

Fair point molgrips, but there's still a disparity in society that punishes the poor.

Oh of course - being poor isn't fun, but I suspect it's better than it used to be.

At least you can HAVE shoes now even if you only have £30 in your pocket. My mum used to teach kids in the 60s who came to school barefoot. Not sure if it happens now but I haven't heard of it.

So whats the point - economically - of making or selling a product that loses you a customer?

Adobe Photoshop.

You used to buy the software, and own it. If you wanted new features, you bought a new copy and scrapped the old.

The problem with that, is that you can't guarantee your customers today will be your customers tomorrow. It's a one time cost, and sale.

Adobe now lease their software and support, with upgrades, you never actually own the software. You pay for access.

If you could genuinely build a washing machine that would last forever and be easily upgradable, then you could lease it to everyone. Why would you pay a large one off fee, when you could pay a very low monthly cost to always have the very best washer? The benefits of scale would mean the cost would be low for the consumer, but the provider would make good margin.

Note: this is a different model to radio rentals.

So they stop making milk floats and start making something else...?

well presumably theres already someone else making something else and if their product is ever-servicable then their market is shrinking too.

The general living standards are generally higher, I'm not trying to say otherwise.
It just stinks that those who can least afford, get punished with bad deals.

well presumably theres already someone else making something else

There's always something else to make, or something to make better.

Businesses fail when they don't progress.

How much did they call cost?

Seeing as i had no money at the time (much the same as now) i guess i would have bought the cheapest possible.

My tricity bendix aeris cooker has had a new oven element and only 3 of 4 hotplates still work, the grill element went pop a few years ago but i never used it really so not worth replacing, my zanussi freezer still works fine for my single person life needs along with my Zanussi fridge, i do give the rear compressor and cooling/heating elements a clean/hoover out every so often though as dust can be a killer.

I have went through 4 espresso machines in 24 years though so i'm still searching for that one example that just works, my current kitchenaid artisan dual boiler (basically a dual gaggia) is desperately in need of a service as the steam wand leaks, the temp dials do not work and i can't trust it to leave it switched on.

I have a Miele dishwasher: it's lasted quite well. Except for the filter which now comes apart. I can live with it because a new filter was £65 when I asked. A Bosch fridge/freezer went a bit funny. A new door seal, £75 delivered, didn't fix it. It's been replaced by separate fridge and freezer, John Lewis's cheapest. If anything goes wrong they'll be binned.

For me quality was important, but now I fear the cost of professional repair. The price of spares seems extortionate, it may have been worsened by exchange rates dropping. So I buy cheap and expect to throw away, with zero brand loyalty. Except for bikes.

my current kitchenaid artisan dual boiler (basically a dual gaggia) is desperately in need of a service as the steam wand leaks, the temp dials do not work and i can't trust it to leave it switched on.

I'll have it off you? 🙂

Ha!, not a chance..........I only bought it as I was perfectly happy with the quality of espresso from my gaggia baby class but as that was a single boiler machine it annoyed me I had to wait till it heated up for milk steaming duties so I bought the kitchenaid with the dual gaggia innards 5 years ago, at a minimum of 3 double espressos/day x 365 days year x 5 years = 5000+ at a minimum for myself not to mention the amount made for guests.....I hate to think how much I've spent on coffee beans at £10week.

I just need to find somewhere in Glasgow/Edingburgh area where I can drop it off for servicing, I could buy the parts and do it myself but I'm not entirely sure what parts I need

There is a device called a cafetiere.

They are cheap too.

You're welcome.

The fact that theres a lot of cheap product available these days can make it look as though everything is crap quality but if you're happy to spend the same relative amount as twenty, thirty or forty years ago you'll get a superior product in almost every area except housing.

Furniture used to be a major purchase, so a months salary on a sofa wouldn't be unusual If you spend a months salary on a sofa now you'll get something just as good. Same with lots of other products.

There is a device called a cafetiere.

I'm aware of cafetières but to suggest that a cafetière Is similar to an espresso machine is akin to comparing a cheap catalogue bike to an expensive bike, sure they both do the same essential thing but in as far as the wheels go round that is where the simarilities end.

Your welcome 8)

In the past repair was cheaper , or alot lower percentage of the replacement cost. So you called out the repair man and paid £30 for a new spring in your washing machine .
Same man , newer van , same job is now £90. The washing machine itself costs the same, although wages have risen .
This makes the 'replace V repair ' question lean toward replace. Alsp , dila in the mistrust that as it has broken once it must be on its last legs and therefore next month something else will fail ( it wont ) , and then add in the fact women love spending money on new , white and shiney goods the swingometer swings toward replace.

There is also the availablility of credit factor. In the olden days you had to have £350 in your bank to go out and buy a wwashing machine. Now you can be £10,000 in personnal debt and go out and buy a new washing machine.

It's not really an argument . It's too subjective based on your choices.

I would say there is a lot of cheap crap. Can't avoid it as it's too expensive to manufacture the good stuff compared to what the masses earn and what they perceive as value. However, where the good stuff exists, HebcoTro, Hope, Turner and other boutique examples if you can afford them it's difficult to not yearn for a world like this.

Cheap fills a gap though and ticks things over sometimes.

I avoid cheap where I can though as it's often false economy and somebody is usually being exploited. That said I.T products has made it all a bit tricky.

I've almost always regretted some cheap stuff but never regretted buying expensive or good value.

People's mindset is generally go cheap. They know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

I reckon some of the world would be better off not importing so much and paying more for their home grown stuff. That said if houses were cheaper and wages higher this would be easier.

There is a device called a cafetiere.

They are cheap too.

To paraphrase Mick Dundee "You could drink that shit".

There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey. John Ruskin

When I started driving many years ago I remember spending a huge amount of time fixing things on my cars (all sorts of makes), when they wouldn't start or something broke, or having to call the AA having walked miles to find a phone box. Doesn't happen these days so that's an improvement. Much as I have tried to instill a knowledge of maintenance (not just of cars but anything) in my kids, just don't seem that interested, I guess because stuff is easier just to replace. Or they just look stuff up on youtube, which I agree is very handy - wonder if anyone still uses Haynes manuals for fixing their car?

I reckon some of the world would be better off not importing so much and paying more for their home grown stuff.

That's great if you have home grown stuff of course. I built a bike a few years ago with aim of have as much UK built stuff on it as possible but didn't get far and my choices were very limited to the point that it was one item from one manufacturer or nothing at all.

Is it the fact that much modern stuff is more complicated and thus not repairable that gives the idea of poor quality? Tellys are a good example.
I would also argue that to some extent about cars. To me, anything that has a built in disposal period is poor quality. I can mend every part of my Land Rover but not my Suzuki that's 25 years newer.

I am very much against the idea that people want to update so that is encouraged. A desire to have a new phone/car/bike is pathetic compared with the greater good of the world surely? The idea that things can be bought new cheaply just to pander to the whims of more people is terrible.

Bike parts (as we on a cycling forum) have generally dropped of in quality because performance has become more important than durability. I for one see the length of time something lasts as the main definition of quality. Others don't . 11 speed chains don't keep their performance level as long as old 5 speed ones did and show a more noticeable drop off in performance.

As most older tech worked well enough I see so called improvements that don't last as long as a backward step. Modern tellys are not better than old ones.

"choices were very limited to the point that it was one item from one manufacturer or nothing at all".
And the problem with that is??
Its the modern assumption that we should have every choice and access to what ever we want, be it chain rings or cycle paths, that has created our greedy and unsustainable society. I wish I was brave enough to make a greater effort to avoid more of it.

My dad would regularly spend a Sunday making sure his Cortina would make it through the rest of the month. Adjusting this and filling that, playing with points and so on

The fact that we don't have to do that anymore is clearly a step forward

Settle an argument...

Thinking about it... Probably the least successful way you could hope to settle any kind of argument would be to post it as a topic on STW and invite Molgrips to join in. 😆

Arguing with someone on FB

Do people really argue on Facebook?

^ I'd agree on some bike parts, 7/8 speed Shimano stuff back in day was great, lasted ages, still have some going strong. A lot less fragile than 9/10/11 speed.

I can mend every part of my Land Rover

However the Landrover owners mantra is "Theres really nothing wrong with it. I just need <insert list>."

I'd agree on some bike parts, 7/8 speed Shimano stuff back in day was great, lasted ages,

With bike stuff its hard to compare like with like as over time the design intention and the consumer requirements change. Longevity of components would come at the price of weight. Ever-more complex, tuneable, adjustable-on-the-fly set ups also impact on longevity.

So 7 speed stuff is bound to outlast 11 speed

The steel seat post on my 1959 Viking will probably outlast a dropper. 🙂

"choices were very limited to the point that it was one item from one manufacturer or nothing at all".
And the problem with that is??

Nothing, on the parts where I even had a choice. I never came close to achieving the 100% built in Britain bike though which was my point.

Take it further, try and get things like TVs, phones, computers etc,. completely built in Britain with no imports involved.
Much easier to list what you could actually buy

Take it further, try and get things like TVs, phones, computers etc,. completely built in Britain with no imports involved.
Much easier to list what you could actually buy

You could however quite easily buy a 100% british satellite, jet engine, submarine or formula 1 car 🙂

Bit of a complicated argument really, because what is 'quality'. It means different things to different people.

Comparing the 'quality' of an old car to a new one is virtually impossible.
Perhaps things were made a bit more 'solid' in the old days, but that doesn't mean they were good quality. My Dad had a new Vauxhall Viva that started showing visible signs of rush within 4 weeks of ownership!! Imagine that one a new car today?!
Old cars were built to lesser tolerances, with less performance, comfort, economy, bells & whistles.......if you took a modern car back to the 50's/60's it would seem out of this world futuristic....although the sat nav might struggle....

'Quality' stuff is out there today, but most people want things at a cheap price point. It seems like a race to the bottom for who can buy something for the cheapest price a lot of the time.

I generally find British manufactured goods to be a little disappointing. Whilst the materials used are often ok there seems to a a degree of laziness with the finishing - especially with tools.

Example: I bought a £50 British manufactured side axe which looked fine in the tool catalogue. When it arrived was covered in paint and lacquer, was ground but not sharp (spade like), and had a bevel ground onto the wrong side. It probably took about three hours of workshop time to sort it all out and get a decent edge - let's say a nominal £25 per hour to include my time, kit wear & tear and power. That makes it a £125 axe. It was still awful, I ended up selling it.

I bought a Swedish side axe; it came mirror polished sharp, beautifully finished with a gorgeous leather case and oiled handle, and of a much higher quality steel, design and build . . . £75. It even had a lovely little booklet explains the manufacturing process and heritage.

Not just axes either: British chisels, billhooks, bow saws etc etc etc . . . all really badly finished.

Is it laziness? a lack of pride? A lack of craftsmanship?

Not sure agree completely with saying older bike stuff is heavier, although yes peoples requirements might be different. My old Suntour road stuff and xt MTb stuff is lighter than more modern 9/10/11 speed versions and is still working fine, though they may well be the exception to run of the mill stuff from past eras.

'Old Timer'- waves.
My first washing machine was bought with an interest free loan and lasted years. When the hotpoint finally broke down it got professionally mended and lasted many more years.
My Karrimore walking boots lasted 20+ years.
Do you remember your granny wearing Marks and Spencer, St. Michael branded clothing? It never fell apart and looked like new wash after wash.
My own curtains are made in the old fashioned way, some customers have them over 20 years, my own are 20 years old and still look great.
I see curtains today made by professionals which quite frankly are tat. Then again if you're the type to change everything every few years, then this isn't a problem.

However we have dualit products in the kitchen which are new and can be easily mended with new parts in the future.
Also I have boots which will last a life time (if the hubby looks after them properly).

In answer to the original question, I do believe most products were better quality, not all.

someone on FB who is saying that [b]everything[/b] is poorer quality now than it used to be.

There isn't an argument. Quite obviously (well, to any non-Facebook users) that is incorrect. I'm sure previous messages in the thread have demonstrated this with specific examples of some things.

It's difficult to buy a really bad car these days, in the old days, most cheap cars were shonky death traps.

[img] [/img]

That's great if you have home grown stuff of course. I built a bike a few years ago with aim of have as much UK built stuff on it as possible but didn't get far and my choices were very limited to the point that it was one item from one manufacturer or nothing at al

Kudos for trying though. I've done the same. As long as your going in the right direction, it's the best you can do.

Bunnyhop - Member

My first washing machine was bought with an interest free loan and lasted years. When the hotpoint finally broke down it got professionally mended and lasted many more years.

But how much did it cost - what would be the equivalent cost today?
How long is 'lasted years'....?
Our Zanussi washing machine broke down after at least 10 years of service a couple of months ago. The drum bearing failed, which I suspect was due to being unable to level it properly because of the uneven floor in our kitchen.
It could have been repaired, but honestly it was more convenient to replace it (baby daughter....washing machine almost always on) and probably not that much more expensive than having it repaired....

In the 'olden days' I suspect a lot of things were repaired rather than replaced because stuff was so expensive to buy 'new'.....

Hotpoint was mended for about £70.00, lasting another 3 years or so.

We bought a miele fridge, freezer about 11 years ago.
It broke down a couple of years ago and couldn't be mended. The miele chap they sent out to mend it was very rude, needless to say eventually another chap came out, then Miele sent out a newer (larger) model for about £200. They admitted that our appliance should have lasted at least another 14 years.

Very hard to make an accurate comparison for all the reasons already mentioned above. I wonder if selective memory plays a part too, especially with bikes!

Basically I agree with what rickon said and this:

The fact that theres a lot of cheap product available these days can make it look as though everything is crap quality but if you're happy to spend the same relative amount as twenty, thirty or forty years ago you'll get a superior product in almost every area

My tricity bendix aeris cooker has had a new oven element and only 3 of 4 hotplates still work, the grill element went pop a few years ago but i never used it really so not worth replacing

When you first posted I thought your overall point was, that you bought stuff in the 90's and it was well made etc.

However I know realise that your point was actually, that you bought a cooker in the 90's and despite replacing a lot of it, it is still knackered 🙂

The issue is that these days, a persons time is very valuable.

Things we make, even complex things are cheap due to automated mass production, but fixing something needs a bloke with a van.

So your typical TV has gone from £800 to £400, and the repair mans expected salary has gone from £12k a year to £30k a year. So when your LED tv breaks, it just goes into the skip.

My washing machine is a hand me down from my sister. The drum bearings went, and although the bearings cost just £22, the 3 hrs of labour required to change them mean't the insurance company deemed it a write off. I asked if i could have it, they said yes (these days, broken washing machines cost money to despose of, so insurance company was glad to give it away for free) and i spend one of my saturday arvo's stripping it, replaced bearings and it's been fine for 4 years now. However, it only worked because i didn't charge my time to the job. As i earn something like £100/hr as a consultant, technically, the job cost me something like £300. For that money, i could have bought a new one.........

Anyone who thinks "modern" cars are poorer quality than old cars is clearly delusional.

FORD used to stand for "Fix Or Repair Daily" for crying out loud.
About the only things I have had to repair or replace on any of my last 3 cars (so over 15 years) have been consumable items (brakes, exhaust, tyres, standar dservice items etc).
Not had to replace a clutch in over 200,000 miles.
You have to work pretty hard to find a recent (10 years old or less?) car that would give you half the trouble of an Escort, Metro, hell - any italian or french car from 25 years ago.

TVs. We used to rent TVs and VCRs. And they broke. A lot. My current TV has to be 10 or more ears old. Every so often the screen is dead when I turn it on. That's becoming more frequent so I'm probably going ot use it as an exucse to get a more modern one.

My Fridge freezer is made by Beko - they are NOT a quality manufacturer. 15 years od and still going strong.

I could go on, but most consumer items have got more reliable and cheaper in real terms.

Yes there is crap quality stuff out there, but for slightly more money, you can get far superior items.

Si

A couple of observations:

First, one thing I've noticed of late is that you used to be able to throw money at the problem. You bought cheap crap, you got cheap crap; you pay a bit extra for something decent and it lasts for years. That doesn't seem to hold true any more, price is a poor indication of quality, rather it's based on what people are willing to pay. Folk will pay £600 for a phone and then shove it in a cupboard in two years because the next shiny is out, yet piss and moan when they have to pay 69p for an app.

Second,

Is it the fact that much modern stuff is more complicated and thus not repairable that gives the idea of poor quality? Tellys are a good example.

This. My first car was 13 years old when I got it, and lasted maybe four years before I sold it on. How many 17-year old cars do you see these days? I spent quite a lot of time on maintenance, mostly DIY because I was a student and had little choice, and you could fix most things with a flat-blade screwdriver and a hammer. These days you lift a bonnet to be presented with a slab of plastic with a few holes for various fluids, you get "dealer service only" on headlamp bulbs, then the DPF / ERG / WTF goes and it's practically a write-off.

My current TV has to be 10 or more ears old.

Is the sound going on it now?

I'm still using Parrot 3/4 bibs.

Had to fix a few holes that are beginning to appear here and there, usually due to brambles.

I miss Parrott clothing, they were made to well and in Great Britain.

These days you lift a bonnet to be presented with a slab of plastic with a few holes for various fluids

That plastic thing comes off you know, just pull it 🙂

then the DPF / ERG / WTF goes and it's practically a write-off.

Hardly any of it is dealer only service. They are complex, but that's because they are better. More powerful, more efficient, more reliable (yes) and cleaner (yes).

It seems complicated because of the flashing warning light and the codes, but that doesn't need to be a huge problem. You just buy the software/widget and it tells you what's wrong, for the most part. And we have Google, which is a massive help. If anything it's easier than it used to be because you so rarely need to drop the crankshaft or re-seat valves etc.

I had an STX rear mech on my first MTB in 1992 - it was floppy as hell in about a year. The whole bike was far poorer quality than an equivalent bike now. Andthe modern one comes with hyro discs and air suspension.

My daily commuter is from 1993 and still has the original LX mech on it. I put thousands of off-road miles on it in the 90's as well. AND it only weighs about 24lbs.

Also i could've sworn that STX didn't come in until 95 or so. FAKE NEWS!

So whats the point - economically - of making or selling a product that loses you a customer?
Adobe Photoshop.
You used to buy the software, and own it. If you wanted new features, you bought a new copy and scrapped the old.
The problem with that, is that you can't guarantee your customers today will be your customers tomorrow. It's a one time cost, and sale.
Adobe now lease their software and support, with upgrades, you never actually own the software. You pay for access.

Stx-rc rear mech on my friend's Fisher Sugar (used to be on my ex-wife's Cannondale)... still works fine. No flop.
Along with a set of 90s Hope hubs, still on their first set of bearings.

As someone who grew up in the 70s and got first car etc in early eighties i have to say stuff is generally much better now.

Pretty much any car produced now is better than every car produce when i was a kid or young adult. They were tinny death traps with crap brakes, rusted, broke down and were old after a couple of years. Today I would be annoyed if anything at all went wrong with a car within 5 years or 60000 miles and would expect minimal servicing up to that point.

Clothes were terrible in the 70s, they lasted forever because the were all bloody nylon and polyester.

Furniture was expensive and crap or really expensive and ok quality. You can still get crap obviously but it's cheaper and good quality isn't hugely more.

Consumer goods were repaired because so expensive, pretty much same or more £s for a washing machine or TV in 70s as now. Taking into account inflation you're talking multiples of today's real cost. So always going to repair. We were always getting repair men out for stuff as a kid.

I think someone earlier made a good point, there is a perception of higher quality in the past because only the higher quality stuff persists and all the rubbish has been binned

Arguments are rarely settled. What normally happens is that one party feels smugly victorious while the other feels like they 'had a point'. Both could actually be right, and/or wrong.

Old stuff is good and bad. New stuff (tech) is usually better than old stuff. Old stuff is often more user-fixable. Old stuff often needed fixing. Growing consumerism coupled with a 'disposable culture' is killing the planet. There is another argument.

1997 Cinder Cone or 2017 Cinder Cone? I'll take both, because more stuff.

My last central heating obliger lsted 13 years

OTOH my 1979 Mini was rusting quite nicely within 4 years...

Old stuff is good and bad. New stuff (tech) is usually better than old stuff. Old stuff is often more user-fixable. Old stuff often needed fixing.

Very good somethingion

There must be some correlation between number of moving parts and frequency of defects. Fridges seem to last but cars always seem to need something or other.

Fridges are basically just a compressor - they should last forever

Our household is of the 'make do and mend type'.

There are clothes in my wardrobe that are still worn from the 1990's. My lusso cycling tights are 20 years old and are great.
Good quality shoes are re heeled and looked after.

Our caravan is fine at nearly 30 years old. It will probably get used by someone else, when we sell.

As i earn something like £100/hr as a consultant, technically, the job cost me something like £300.

Not take home pay I guess?

I think it's a shame but I wouldn't pay someone to fix kitchen equipment or TV as cost/hassle of fixing unlikely to be justifiable compared to the cost of replacement. Also nice to have something new and shiny.... I remember my Mum getting a toaster repaired back in the 70s, seems crazy now but also wasteful.