[Closed] Settle an argument...

Settle an argument...

Thinking about it... Probably the least successful way you could hope to settle any kind of argument would be to post it as a topic on STW and invite Molgrips to join in. 😆

Arguing with someone on FB

Do people really argue on Facebook?

Do people really argue on Facebook?

Only splitters

^ I'd agree on some bike parts, 7/8 speed Shimano stuff back in day was great, lasted ages, still have some going strong. A lot less fragile than 9/10/11 speed.

I can mend every part of my Land Rover

However the Landrover owners mantra is "Theres really nothing wrong with it. I just need <insert list>."

I'd agree on some bike parts, 7/8 speed Shimano stuff back in day was great, lasted ages,

With bike stuff its hard to compare like with like as over time the design intention and the consumer requirements change. Longevity of components would come at the price of weight. Ever-more complex, tuneable, adjustable-on-the-fly set ups also impact on longevity.

So 7 speed stuff is bound to outlast 11 speed

The steel seat post on my 1959 Viking will probably outlast a dropper. 🙂

"choices were very limited to the point that it was one item from one manufacturer or nothing at all".
And the problem with that is??

Nothing, on the parts where I even had a choice. I never came close to achieving the 100% built in Britain bike though which was my point.

Take it further, try and get things like TVs, phones, computers etc,. completely built in Britain with no imports involved.
Much easier to list what you could actually buy

Take it further, try and get things like TVs, phones, computers etc,. completely built in Britain with no imports involved.
Much easier to list what you could actually buy

You could however quite easily buy a 100% british satellite, jet engine, submarine or formula 1 car 🙂

Bit of a complicated argument really, because what is 'quality'. It means different things to different people.

Comparing the 'quality' of an old car to a new one is virtually impossible.
Perhaps things were made a bit more 'solid' in the old days, but that doesn't mean they were good quality. My Dad had a new Vauxhall Viva that started showing visible signs of rush within 4 weeks of ownership!! Imagine that one a new car today?!
Old cars were built to lesser tolerances, with less performance, comfort, economy, bells & whistles.......if you took a modern car back to the 50's/60's it would seem out of this world futuristic....although the sat nav might struggle....

'Quality' stuff is out there today, but most people want things at a cheap price point. It seems like a race to the bottom for who can buy something for the cheapest price a lot of the time.

I generally find British manufactured goods to be a little disappointing. Whilst the materials used are often ok there seems to a a degree of laziness with the finishing - especially with tools.

Example: I bought a £50 British manufactured side axe which looked fine in the tool catalogue. When it arrived was covered in paint and lacquer, was ground but not sharp (spade like), and had a bevel ground onto the wrong side. It probably took about three hours of workshop time to sort it all out and get a decent edge - let's say a nominal £25 per hour to include my time, kit wear & tear and power. That makes it a £125 axe. It was still awful, I ended up selling it.

I bought a Swedish side axe; it came mirror polished sharp, beautifully finished with a gorgeous leather case and oiled handle, and of a much higher quality steel, design and build . . . £75. It even had a lovely little booklet explains the manufacturing process and heritage.

Not just axes either: British chisels, billhooks, bow saws etc etc etc . . . all really badly finished.

Is it laziness? a lack of pride? A lack of craftsmanship?

Not sure agree completely with saying older bike stuff is heavier, although yes peoples requirements might be different. My old Suntour road stuff and xt MTb stuff is lighter than more modern 9/10/11 speed versions and is still working fine, though they may well be the exception to run of the mill stuff from past eras.

'Old Timer'- waves.
My first washing machine was bought with an interest free loan and lasted years. When the hotpoint finally broke down it got professionally mended and lasted many more years.
My Karrimore walking boots lasted 20+ years.
Do you remember your granny wearing Marks and Spencer, St. Michael branded clothing? It never fell apart and looked like new wash after wash.
My own curtains are made in the old fashioned way, some customers have them over 20 years, my own are 20 years old and still look great.
I see curtains today made by professionals which quite frankly are tat. Then again if you're the type to change everything every few years, then this isn't a problem.

However we have dualit products in the kitchen which are new and can be easily mended with new parts in the future.
Also I have boots which will last a life time (if the hubby looks after them properly).

In answer to the original question, I do believe most products were better quality, not all.

someone on FB who is saying that [b]everything[/b] is poorer quality now than it used to be.

There isn't an argument. Quite obviously (well, to any non-Facebook users) that is incorrect. I'm sure previous messages in the thread have demonstrated this with specific examples of some things.

It's difficult to buy a really bad car these days, in the old days, most cheap cars were shonky death traps.

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That's great if you have home grown stuff of course. I built a bike a few years ago with aim of have as much UK built stuff on it as possible but didn't get far and my choices were very limited to the point that it was one item from one manufacturer or nothing at al

Kudos for trying though. I've done the same. As long as your going in the right direction, it's the best you can do.

Bunnyhop - Member

My first washing machine was bought with an interest free loan and lasted years. When the hotpoint finally broke down it got professionally mended and lasted many more years.

But how much did it cost - what would be the equivalent cost today?
How long is 'lasted years'....?
Our Zanussi washing machine broke down after at least 10 years of service a couple of months ago. The drum bearing failed, which I suspect was due to being unable to level it properly because of the uneven floor in our kitchen.
It could have been repaired, but honestly it was more convenient to replace it (baby daughter....washing machine almost always on) and probably not that much more expensive than having it repaired....

In the 'olden days' I suspect a lot of things were repaired rather than replaced because stuff was so expensive to buy 'new'.....

Hotpoint was mended for about £70.00, lasting another 3 years or so.

We bought a miele fridge, freezer about 11 years ago.
It broke down a couple of years ago and couldn't be mended. The miele chap they sent out to mend it was very rude, needless to say eventually another chap came out, then Miele sent out a newer (larger) model for about £200. They admitted that our appliance should have lasted at least another 14 years.

Very hard to make an accurate comparison for all the reasons already mentioned above. I wonder if selective memory plays a part too, especially with bikes!

Basically I agree with what rickon said and this:

The fact that theres a lot of cheap product available these days can make it look as though everything is crap quality but if you're happy to spend the same relative amount as twenty, thirty or forty years ago you'll get a superior product in almost every area

My tricity bendix aeris cooker has had a new oven element and only 3 of 4 hotplates still work, the grill element went pop a few years ago but i never used it really so not worth replacing

When you first posted I thought your overall point was, that you bought stuff in the 90's and it was well made etc.

However I know realise that your point was actually, that you bought a cooker in the 90's and despite replacing a lot of it, it is still knackered 🙂

The issue is that these days, a persons time is very valuable.

Things we make, even complex things are cheap due to automated mass production, but fixing something needs a bloke with a van.

So your typical TV has gone from £800 to £400, and the repair mans expected salary has gone from £12k a year to £30k a year. So when your LED tv breaks, it just goes into the skip.

My washing machine is a hand me down from my sister. The drum bearings went, and although the bearings cost just £22, the 3 hrs of labour required to change them mean't the insurance company deemed it a write off. I asked if i could have it, they said yes (these days, broken washing machines cost money to despose of, so insurance company was glad to give it away for free) and i spend one of my saturday arvo's stripping it, replaced bearings and it's been fine for 4 years now. However, it only worked because i didn't charge my time to the job. As i earn something like £100/hr as a consultant, technically, the job cost me something like £300. For that money, i could have bought a new one.........

Anyone who thinks "modern" cars are poorer quality than old cars is clearly delusional.

FORD used to stand for "Fix Or Repair Daily" for crying out loud.
About the only things I have had to repair or replace on any of my last 3 cars (so over 15 years) have been consumable items (brakes, exhaust, tyres, standar dservice items etc).
Not had to replace a clutch in over 200,000 miles.
You have to work pretty hard to find a recent (10 years old or less?) car that would give you half the trouble of an Escort, Metro, hell - any italian or french car from 25 years ago.

TVs. We used to rent TVs and VCRs. And they broke. A lot. My current TV has to be 10 or more ears old. Every so often the screen is dead when I turn it on. That's becoming more frequent so I'm probably going ot use it as an exucse to get a more modern one.

My Fridge freezer is made by Beko - they are NOT a quality manufacturer. 15 years od and still going strong.

I could go on, but most consumer items have got more reliable and cheaper in real terms.

Yes there is crap quality stuff out there, but for slightly more money, you can get far superior items.

Si

A couple of observations:

First, one thing I've noticed of late is that you used to be able to throw money at the problem. You bought cheap crap, you got cheap crap; you pay a bit extra for something decent and it lasts for years. That doesn't seem to hold true any more, price is a poor indication of quality, rather it's based on what people are willing to pay. Folk will pay £600 for a phone and then shove it in a cupboard in two years because the next shiny is out, yet piss and moan when they have to pay 69p for an app.

Second,

Is it the fact that much modern stuff is more complicated and thus not repairable that gives the idea of poor quality? Tellys are a good example.

This. My first car was 13 years old when I got it, and lasted maybe four years before I sold it on. How many 17-year old cars do you see these days? I spent quite a lot of time on maintenance, mostly DIY because I was a student and had little choice, and you could fix most things with a flat-blade screwdriver and a hammer. These days you lift a bonnet to be presented with a slab of plastic with a few holes for various fluids, you get "dealer service only" on headlamp bulbs, then the DPF / ERG / WTF goes and it's practically a write-off.

My current TV has to be 10 or more ears old.

Is the sound going on it now?

I'm still using Parrot 3/4 bibs.

Had to fix a few holes that are beginning to appear here and there, usually due to brambles.

I miss Parrott clothing, they were made to well and in Great Britain.

These days you lift a bonnet to be presented with a slab of plastic with a few holes for various fluids

That plastic thing comes off you know, just pull it 🙂

then the DPF / ERG / WTF goes and it's practically a write-off.

Hardly any of it is dealer only service. They are complex, but that's because they are better. More powerful, more efficient, more reliable (yes) and cleaner (yes).

It seems complicated because of the flashing warning light and the codes, but that doesn't need to be a huge problem. You just buy the software/widget and it tells you what's wrong, for the most part. And we have Google, which is a massive help. If anything it's easier than it used to be because you so rarely need to drop the crankshaft or re-seat valves etc.

I had an STX rear mech on my first MTB in 1992 - it was floppy as hell in about a year. The whole bike was far poorer quality than an equivalent bike now. Andthe modern one comes with hyro discs and air suspension.

My daily commuter is from 1993 and still has the original LX mech on it. I put thousands of off-road miles on it in the 90's as well. AND it only weighs about 24lbs.

Also i could've sworn that STX didn't come in until 95 or so. FAKE NEWS!

So whats the point - economically - of making or selling a product that loses you a customer?
Adobe Photoshop.
You used to buy the software, and own it. If you wanted new features, you bought a new copy and scrapped the old.
The problem with that, is that you can't guarantee your customers today will be your customers tomorrow. It's a one time cost, and sale.
Adobe now lease their software and support, with upgrades, you never actually own the software. You pay for access.

Not entirely true, you would buy the software, which came on a disc with a licence number, which allowed you to buy the next version cheaply and update the older version just by tapping in the licence number.
Adobe, along with QuarkExpress, decided that this wasn't in their best interests, and screw the customer, by forcing users to have to basically have a cloud installation which means having to contact them every time an installation is done, and asking their permission to do so, you effectively 'rent' the software, whereas you used to actually own it, you didn't need to have to ask permission to install it.
All to avoid software piracy, of course...
I do actually posess copies of Photoshop and Illustrator on CD, with the licence for them, which I installed on my PowerBook, and I could probably install them on my Mini if I could be arsed to install emulator 'ware and OS 9.

Stx-rc rear mech on my friend's Fisher Sugar (used to be on my ex-wife's Cannondale)... still works fine. No flop.
Along with a set of 90s Hope hubs, still on their first set of bearings.

As someone who grew up in the 70s and got first car etc in early eighties i have to say stuff is generally much better now.

Pretty much any car produced now is better than every car produce when i was a kid or young adult. They were tinny death traps with crap brakes, rusted, broke down and were old after a couple of years. Today I would be annoyed if anything at all went wrong with a car within 5 years or 60000 miles and would expect minimal servicing up to that point.

Clothes were terrible in the 70s, they lasted forever because the were all bloody nylon and polyester.

Furniture was expensive and crap or really expensive and ok quality. You can still get crap obviously but it's cheaper and good quality isn't hugely more.

Consumer goods were repaired because so expensive, pretty much same or more £s for a washing machine or TV in 70s as now. Taking into account inflation you're talking multiples of today's real cost. So always going to repair. We were always getting repair men out for stuff as a kid.

I think someone earlier made a good point, there is a perception of higher quality in the past because only the higher quality stuff persists and all the rubbish has been binned

Arguments are rarely settled. What normally happens is that one party feels smugly victorious while the other feels like they 'had a point'. Both could actually be right, and/or wrong.

Old stuff is good and bad. New stuff (tech) is usually better than old stuff. Old stuff is often more user-fixable. Old stuff often needed fixing. Growing consumerism coupled with a 'disposable culture' is killing the planet. There is another argument.

1997 Cinder Cone or 2017 Cinder Cone? I'll take both, because more stuff.

My last central heating obliger lsted 13 years

Modern spell checkers don't work too well, I've still got my original dictionary and it works perfectly 🙂

OTOH my 1979 Mini was rusting quite nicely within 4 years...

Old stuff is good and bad. New stuff (tech) is usually better than old stuff. Old stuff is often more user-fixable. Old stuff often needed fixing.

Very good somethingion

There must be some correlation between number of moving parts and frequency of defects. Fridges seem to last but cars always seem to need something or other.

Fridges are basically just a compressor - they should last forever

Our household is of the 'make do and mend type'.

There are clothes in my wardrobe that are still worn from the 1990's. My lusso cycling tights are 20 years old and are great.
Good quality shoes are re heeled and looked after.

Our caravan is fine at nearly 30 years old. It will probably get used by someone else, when we sell.

As i earn something like £100/hr as a consultant, technically, the job cost me something like £300.

Not take home pay I guess?

I think it's a shame but I wouldn't pay someone to fix kitchen equipment or TV as cost/hassle of fixing unlikely to be justifiable compared to the cost of replacement. Also nice to have something new and shiny.... I remember my Mum getting a toaster repaired back in the 70s, seems crazy now but also wasteful.

Furniture was expensive and crap or really expensive and ok quality. You can still get crap obviously but it's cheaper and good quality isn't hugely more.

You can now buy a dining room table for the price of two fish and chip dinners for a family. Ok so it's not top quality, but it'll last many years.

15 years ago I furnished an entire flat for 400 € from Ikea. Including kitchenware, tableware, bedclothes, soft furnishings, pictures, teatowels, the lot - except wardrobes. Quality was a damn sight better than MFI. Most of that stuff is the same actual price now.