[Closed] Screaming brat

sounds like a normal newborn.
give her a dummy.

Only had one so far but....

a) Yes that was normal for her after the first 10 days.
b) Yes it will pass
c) It reached its peak at around 17 weeks

She's as good as gold now like, sleeps from 8pm till 7am almost without fail from 6 months on. Good luck!

I don't have kids, so might seem a little 'unqulaified' to comment, but I've grown up around loads of kids inthe family and that, and always remember the words of my mum, who was a midwife and peadriatric nurse looking after tiny new-borns and that;

'If they can scream, there's probably little wrong with them'.

I hope this is slightly reassuring.

Apparently it does get better. Might take 18 years or so..... 😉

i still remember 4 months of similar trauma. i called him a little shit alot. grab sleep when you can, 5 min here and there. it will pass. you'll get through . but it's ****ing grim.

Assuming there's no physiological reason (and I assume this has been checked out) for the screaming, then it's just babies, ho hum. Take time so that each of you can get away from it for a bit each day.

If you hold them every time they scream, they'll scream when they're not being held. It's really hard with your first but you have to take your own mental state into consideration too. If it's driving you nuts, put them in their cot and walk away for a bit. Screaming for a bit won't kill them.

Oh and btw mate; nice one dad! 😀

Indeed....congratulations and welcome to your new life.

well we are 6 weeks in to our 1st, hes not been that bad

lots of people have recomended this
http://www.amazon.com/Secrets-Baby-Whisperer-Connect-Communicate/dp/0345479092/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1293148397&sr=1-1
and another book (i forget which!)all about setting a routine and so on

tbh its 90% common sense but its nice to have some sort of a plan, even if we dont really stick to it

ours sleeps reasonably well weve found a dummy helps send him off
i know some people arent keen on them but if it means a good nights sleep....you can get ones suitable from birth but only use if shes feeding well already

At home with our week old first child, who is as good as gold all day, but then screams and screams all night. Can anyone assure me that a) this is normal, b) that it will pass, and c) what the likely time frame is?

We are going through [I]exactly[/I] the same thing with our third, so, a) yes it's normal, b) yes it will pass and c) 3-4 months (for our previous two), but it will feel much longer 😉

Feels like hell at the time becuase you don't know that it will end, but it does, and looking back, it won't seam that bad.

Once the baby starts handing out smiles, it all seams a whole lot better.

I feel your pain. We're going through the same with our 3 week old. He does have better days than others though, and is certainly better than the first few nights.
Sorry I can't be anymore help other than letting you know your not the only ones 😉

Our first was the same, suffered badly with colic, which got progressively worse through the day as she took subsequent feeds. I'll be honest we did not sleep properly for four months but you genuinely will adapt, most important thing is to share the duties as much as poss and don't fall out with each other which I admit is hard. You'll get there, you have no choice in that and it'll all soon be a distant memory!! Oh and a dummy does work wonders!! Good luck 🙂

Ruling out all the obvious as stated.

I assume that the baba is put down in a cot, where's as during the day, she has alot of interaction with you, the mum, other, etc..

During the day, during sleeps, get her in a quieter area of the house if possible and get her used to sleeping in a more peaceful environment.

Also have mums smell on some of the babas bedding. It may comfort her and help her settle.

Too much soothing husshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhing and she'll know you're there and want picking up..

Lots of trial and error might be needed, so be calm and patient.

It's hard but worth the effort.

HTH

Might sound daft but background noise, my boy was similar when new born, one night I put a radio in the room, problem solved almost instantly, no idea why. He still insists on the radio to this day and he's 7 now. Also worth checking if she's too hot/cold, that makes anyone grumpy.

Lots of noise and activity during day then it goes all quiet and somebody turns all the lights out at night. I'd scream and get anxious till I got used to it. If it's any consolation I would walk ours round the lounge until he nodded off at 3.00pm. It slowly got earlier until he went to sleep at 12 midnight and we could then have an early night, till he woke up for a feed! It gets better you'll look back in a years time and wonder how you got through it. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

As above, I feel your pain.
We went through several months of similar screaming trauma with our first. The bad sleeping carried on until he was 2!

The only good bit of advice to give is that there is no good advice. There is no magic thing (aside from the usual things e.g. hungry / dirty) you should/could be doing to stop the screaming.
All this "if you do routine xyz it will all be OK" is total bullshit. Routine xyz sets unrealistic expectations about what can be achieved with a difficult kid and only fuels the despair when xyz doesn't work.

You find your own path.

Oh yeah actually, contradicting myself, there are a few goods bit of advice actually:
* Don't be too hard on yourselves. You probably aren't doing anything wrong
* It will get (a lot) better, and more fun!
* Having kids will be the best thing you ever do

My little one is 2 now, she still doesn't sleep through the nights, wakes up in night terrors 2 or 3 times a night.

Is she breast fed? If so, then don't give her a dummy until you establish a feeding pattern.

It's normal, it will pass, and it's going to be pretty tough for a few weeks until it does. For what it's worth, it's normal for babies to cry lots.

My best advice, after 4 kids with the latest 10 days old, is that if she's good during the day (and you're both off work) is for both of you to be grabbing some decent naps during the day. Getting sleep keeps you sane and helps keep everything in perspective.

Best of luck.

Not much to add other than my congratulations.

It does get better. This time next year you might be able to tow her around on a sledge. She will think you've made the snow and created this cool mode of transport and are probably the best person in the world.

For extra points, take up surfing like Awesome Dad:

[img] [/img]

[i]It does get better. This time next year you might be able to tow her around on a sledge. She will think you've made the snow and created this cool mode of transport and are probably the best person in the world.[/i]

This works the other way too. You can buy a new carpet for christmas and tell your kids that's their christmas present. They buy this till they're about 3 or 4.

If she's fed, clean and warm and she still screams do not be tempted to keep picking up to cuddle. As hard as it maybe to listen to her cry you don't want to get into the habit that she won't settle without falling asleep in your arms.

Get into a routine early on.

You could also try a comforter blanket - Jojo Mamen Bebe do some nice ones

If it's red in the face non stop screaming with hardly a pause for breath then probably colic - not anything you can do as far as I found. Heartbreaking but it will pass.
You could set the clock by my two.

My son cried a lot when he 1st came home. We used a feeding pillow (the boomerang shaped ones) and kind of wedged him in his cot with it, so his head was resting in the center (hope that makes sense!) and it helped him sleep better.

We also put some books under the feet of the head end of his cot as some newborns have problems with wind and being at a slight angle helps take the pain away.

HTH

PS, being a dad is the best thing you can do, congratulations!

Things go on 6 week cycles ime. Find out what works for you, routine is very important.
Our 2 slept on mrs j's chest until they were about 3 months old. Not ideal, but neither is not getting any sleep.
Good luck - I reckon lots of us have been there, it's not nice, but it does get better / easier.

yes I think it's normal, however I have to disagree with the posters who say don't hold them when they scream I'm afraid. Tiny babies need lots of contact, they are used to being constantly nurtured, moved about, have noise etc in the womb and being born is a total shock to the system. They are biologically programmed to need to be held and reassured a lot in the early months. Teddy has been picked up and comforted every time he cries since he was born, and rarely cries - only when he is tired or hungry, and is very happy to be put down to play on his own. In the early weeks he wasn't happy to be in the moses basket, so he slept in bed with us. Now, he is completely happy to sleep all night in his basket.

There is a school of though that the first 3 months is the 4th trimester, and I can understand the thinking.

Anyway, feel free to ignore, is just my hippy coth nappy using, un gina ford routine based side coming out 🙂

Also remember they don't know night from day yet, it takes a good few weeks to sort that out - try to expose her to some daylight every day (hard at this time of year I know!) to help with the transition, as well as making day times bright and noisy and night times dark and quiet.

Oh and forgot the congratulations! It's honestly the best thing we have ever done.

ETA tell the mrs to sign up to Mumsnet if she hasn't already, v useful for all kinds of advice.

sorry me again, try a sling as a compromise between getting stuff done and holding the baby; something like a moby from [url= http://www.littlepossums.co.uk ]Little Possums[/url]

I have to disagree with the posters who say don't hold them when they scream

No more to add than what has been said other than concentrate on the belief that it WILL pass. In twelve months time you will look back in disbelief at how well you managed on 2 hours sleep each night...

Oh, I can acutely remember those days. It can only get better.
Make sure they are warm (but not too hot), well fed ( mine always fell off the tooter fast asleep) and we always found if they were 'swaddled', wrapped up in a blanket with their arms tucked in worked, so their arms weren't flailing around. With my 3 kids they did spend lots of time inbetween me and spouse in our bed, but, hey, they settled quickly and we rested too. I'm afraid it goes with the territory tho'.

[i]I have to disagree with the posters who say don't hold them when they scream[/i]

well i think that was me but it's not what I said. I said don't pick them up every time they scream. New parents will often run to the child every time they open their mouth and whether this doesn't have any effect until their three months or six months it's more about preserving your own sanity. Screaming away won't kill them but you going mental might.

+1 samuri

I have to disagree with the posters who say don't hold them when they scream

I'm not saying not to hold but don't keep running back and forth, even at that young age they know whats what.

Just a wait until you have teenagers then you'll look back wanting a screaming baby rather than a sulky 14yr old. 😉

My son screamed so much on his second night in this world that he was taken to the special care babay unit at the hospital and placed in an incubater as he turned blue and the midwives had a panic.

The noise level didn't really abate for about 18 months.

Alright, I'll amend my words, I disagree with those who say don't run to them every time they scream 🙂 I think at that age, they scream becuase they need something, even if what they need is just human contact, it's a valid need as they are unused to being alone.

Thanks all for the reassurance. We've had another horror of a night - baby finally settled (on her mum, who is resultantly shattered this morning) about 0430. Now (sleeping quietly) in Moses basket on the living room table while my wife sleeps upstairs.

I did suggest Mrs RBIT signed up for Mumsnet; she's not got round to it yet. I suspect the quality of advice on here might be higher though 😛

Andy

Our lad is 4 and still wakes in the night, still waiting for the magic to happen....

I am hoping our two (18 months) are going to give us a Christmas present tonight and sleep right through to 8am...

We had ours in a moses basket beside the bed so she could see her mum. They cry loads at the start anyway but when ours wasn't sleeping we eventually discovered it was a combination of colic and a milk allergy. My wife cut out dairy until she stopped breast feeding and it worked really well.

For all the flack mumsnet gets on here its a good way to get some suggestions and see what works for you and your kid.

Now (sleeping quietly) in Moses basket on the living room table while my wife sleeps upstairs.

If you have a baby who will sleep when not on a parent, then you're a lucky one - if possible just sleep when they sleep.

Sling was brilliant for ours, complete life saver, used a Moby sling from 7 days old, she slept it in while we got on with stuff / went places.

Not letting babies cry uncomforted (ie pick them up when they scream) at an early age is supposed to make them less cryey once they are older - there's some research on it, the stuff people say about them learning to get your attention by crying is rubbish - babies just aren't that manipulative.

The quality of advice on mumsnet is excellent, honestly! whatever your child is doing someone elses is worse. Makes you feel much better 🙂

Teddy went through a long phase of only sleepimg on me, he also went through a short phase of only sleeping latched on, that was not so much fun.

babies just aren't that manipulative.

😯

Okaaaaaaaaaaaay...........

On a serious note, Jean Liedloff's book, The Continuum Concept I think is well worth a read basically says hold them when they want to be held and that this help later when old and later in life.

On a less serious note

[i]Looking for some Dadsnet hive-mind reassurance. At home with our 16yr old first child, who is as good as gold all night, but then screams and screams all day. Can anyone assure me that a) this is normal, b) that it will pass, and c) what the likely time frame is? We can't find any obvious cause for this; she's much more chilled when paid money but is too 'grow up' to understand that we can't do this all the time. We are both threaders and exhausted; best mate's wife suggests things might be better by the weekend. Anyone able to advise?[/i]

Good luck I am sure she will be the best thing that has ever happened to you.

I'm in the if they want cuddling them cuddle them camp. Our 3rd one gets put down at 7 in his cot, but always wakes up sometime between 12 and 4, after which he comes in the bed with us and goes back to sleep pretty quickly. Often by then his brother is in too if he's had a bad dream. I know all that stuff about if you let them in your bed you'll never get rid of them, and it's probably true, but it's nice cuddling your kids while there asleep, they just want to be close by you, and I reckon I'll miss it when they've all stopped (oldest one has, off her own back).

And try Infacol if you haven't already, that's good stuff for colic.

Okaaaaaaaaaaaay...........

Yup, what M_F said, it's months before they are capable of thought / association like that. Unless yours are super geniuses of course 😉

The quality of advice on mumsnet is excellent, honestly! whatever your child is doing someone elses is worse.

From what I can see stw is pretty good as well.

Just to add to the general consensus, both of my two screamed the place down when they first came home. One had colic and one didn't. I remember trying to sleep sitting up whilst holding Tom in seemingly the only position he would sleep in.

It passes and then other stuff arrives to test your sanity...but that's for another thread 🙂

[i]"She's much more chilled when held but is too little to understand that we can't do this all the time."[/i]

.. Well humans have evolved for millions of years and little'uns slept with their Mummy. - So can you blame her?

Get her into your bed.

Downside is that it could last for 7 years.. (Don't ask me how I know)..but that's not really so bad if you are cool about it.

Upside is kids get much more interaction, I'm sure the extra hour of communication every day helps development. Abandoning them alone is not natural, it's just the way most of our society here happens to view normality.

Take a tip:

Train the baby or it [b]will[/b] train you.

They [i]are[/i] that manipulative. Reassure, then put her back to bed. Keep going, don't give in!

A routine is paramount, and wind down to bedtime.

I wouldn't let a baby in the bed either, but I guess that's a personal choice. Our kids are balanced, have well rounded personalties and have no issues. They know we love them deeply but you have choices. Life can be exhausting with new born and the easy option isn't always the best.

Yeah, f*ck it, it's a week old, it is about time it learnt it can't have attention all the time.
😕

Unless yours are super geniuses of course

looking at my teenager who refuses to get out of bed, i think he is the spawn of the devil or he was swapped in the hospital when my back was turned.

Lets see how sharp he's up tomorrow 😉

I think this is where the 2 schools of parenting become obvious 🙂 A baby, imo, shouldn't be "trained" There is time enough for that when it becomes a toddler and is capable of understanding things. A week old baby is a blob with basic needs, food, warmth and comfort.

We had a hideous couple of weeks, but as other's said it passes. What we did was give each other a night off 1 or 2 days a week. My misuss would sleep all night through whist i would look after our daughter all night, then we would swap duties on another night. The rest of the time we would take turns during the night shift. That one night a week of good sleep just took the edge of things. Manitaianed this until she started sleeping though, which was quite early.

On a positive note, i found i could function quite happily on 4 hours sleep a night, which is always good to know.

Donkey's years ago when mine were babies but here's a couple of suggestions.

Is Mum breastfeeding? If yes, then she may need to be careful with her diet. Is baby gulping in air when feeding? Or feeding too quickly? This could result in colic. What position is baby in when feeding? Perhaps needs to be more upright? Try short feeds with a rest inbetween.

If not breastfeeding, could the formulated milk be causing a problem?

Presumably the midwife is visiting every day at the moment?

Don't let baby sleep in your bed/room. Both mine went into a cot, in their own room, the day they came back from hospital.

Good luck.

Plus the problem is that quite often the baby will be sleeping in the same room or the adjacent room to you so every time it makes a noise it'll wake you up.

Top tip: most conservatories are separated from the rest of the house by nicely sound proofed double glazing. Let the baby sleep in there and set your alarm to go off at 4 hour intervals allowing you to get a decent night's kip in before facing the day.

Don't let baby sleep in your bed/room.

Having said that I know plenty of people who said they all slept better once baby was in their own room.

I had to make one concession to MrsMastiles though - they have those heartbeat monitors under their mattresses - it keeps her happy so I am. And I sleep marginally more than I did.

Mate - I feel your pain!
Ours is 11/12 now, and unless he's ill is as good as gold - really chilled.
But... from birth to 3 months, he was pretty much crying the whole time. Possibly colic, possibly just normal baby behaviour.

Me and the wife are both in hospital (she's a gas girl), but heading to do a shift after a night of bawling is pretty tough isn't it!

It should get better (I hope)...

DrP

mastiles_fanylion - Member
Yeah, f*ck it, it's a week old, it is about time it learnt it can't have attention all the time.

That's not what I said old boy, give a baby attention when it suits you and when it is genuinely needed. That is not 30 mins after you've put them to bed. Of course you need to check the nappy / safety situation but after that a quick hug and lay them back down.

Would you rather have a less demanding baby? I know I would. Giving a baby attention 24/7 does neither of you any good.

Mine is 4 weeks old tomorrow, so going through what you are!

Good luck.

Train the baby or it will train you.

They are that manipulative. Reassure, then put her back to bed. Keep going, don't give in!

I think this is where the 2 schools of parenting become obvious A baby, imo, shouldn't be "trained" There is time enough for that when it becomes a toddler and is capable of understanding things. A week old baby is a blob with basic needs, food, warmth and comfort.

Yep - there isn't any evidence that babies can be manipulative - things like that are just projections that adults put on a baby's behaviour, when all the evidence is that basically a baby cries if something is making it unhappy. Sometimes it is a mystery what it is, but that is what it is. There's also little evidence that training works - indeed there's evidence that letting the baby cry when it is young makes for a worse crying baby later on, rather than training them out of crying.

Until they can talk, all you're doing by not looking after them when they cry, is teaching them that when they are scared and unhappy, there is no one there to look after them. The more complicated causative explanations like them being manipulative, and teaching them that you love them but that they can't have your attention all the time, are only ever going to get learnt when they're a whole lot older (like beginning to understand talking a bit).

There's a great book about the research into this stuff called '[url= http://www.amazon.com/Philosophical-Baby-Childrens-Minds-Meaning/dp/0374231966 ]The Philosophical Baby[/url]'. Really interesting - not in any way a parenting manual, but a brilliant help in terms of thinking about what your baby is up to as they develop (and in avoiding attributing adult style deviousness etc. to their extremely simply motivated but often hard to fathom behaviour).

Try infacol in case wind is a factor (quite likely), it takes a day or so before it really starts to work. Suggest you start with this ASAP

Mine has just turned 1 and I know what you're going through, now go and buy some infacol 🙂

Warming their cot with a hot water bottle before you put them down helps too.

It does get better honest, congratulations and a Merry Christmas !

Congratulations and welcome to the club. [b]YOU ARE NO DIFFERENT FROM 10'S OF THOUSANDS OF OTHER PARENTS IN FEELING AT YOUR WITS END. IT WILL PASS. TRUST ME ON THIS.[/b]

My first was awful for 6 weeks. I'd come home from work, grab a sandwich and then pace up and down the lounge with her for a full 6 hours from 8pm until 2am. She had a built in altimeter too, lower her below shoulder height (and god forbid try and sit down) she'd start bawling again. At 2am I'd go to bed and the wife would get up again and we'd swap and I'd get some sleep.

I didn't deal well with it. I hated her and at times thought semi-seriously of bashing her on the floor to make it stop. I can actually see how some people are driven to it.

At some point over the first 6 weeks things settled down. I put this down to three things (not saying any specifically are your issue, just illustrating so pls stick with me):

1/ she was breast fed and wasn't getting enough. She couldn't latch on properly. When we put her on bottles (of expressed milk) as well she started to thrive. Point is: it's their only means of communication. Hungry, cold, dirty, bored....... they'll yell. He maight just be bored and lonely, so for now at least give him the attention he needs. I agree they can become manipulative, but not this early. Find out what he needs and provide it.

2/ She was just a couple of weeks old. A bit like above it's a big strange place when for the past 9 months you've been confined to quarters. I'd be pretty stressed too; comfort him if that's what he wants.

3/ The hardest bit. Don't get stressed yourself, or with your wife who's got it just as bad as you plus a huge hormone down too. Maybe babies can't actually pick up on 'vibes' but on the other hand I can't be convinced that seeing a calm, smiling comforting face even when they seem to be in paroxysms of rage isn't a hell of a load better than seeing the snarling face of someone who they think they recognise threatening to murder them. Calm parents make for calm children; fact.

I've taken a pause while writing this to go and tell Polly (now nearly 7) that i love her. Which she accepted of course but thought was odd that I'd taken the effort to go upstairs right now - but then I could hardly say it's because I still feel sorry for hating her as much as I did back then.

Our first child was a real greeter and she can still now turn on the waterworks now at the age of 11.

You do have my sympathies as it can be very frustrating as you want to settle them but you also feel quite helpless once you have tried everything.

I don't want to upset you on Christmas Eve but you may just have to accept that you have a greety baby. I had to.

Happy Christmas anyway. For all their greeting they are definitely worth it 🙂

One last thing... Enjoy your family and Merry Christmas! 🙂

"Screaming Brat"

Careful you'll have the girlymen after you with that title 😆

My first is 4 weeks old and she's ended up in bed with us - I was dead against it at first but I'm cool with it now.

I'm not going to be all evangelical about it tho, all babies are individuals just like their parents so it's different for everyone

careful with co-sleeping on mumsnet, it'll probably be a topic like what tyres on here..

Midwife suggesting that it might be due to hunger (wife's milk coming in slowly), and that we should give her a single bottle about midnight & see how we go. We shall see.

Thanks all.

Andy

How are you getting on? Has it helped at all?

Andy,

We had the same problem with our daughter - Mrs.T really wanted to feed the child herself but struggled (not helped by mid wife's showing what appeared to be the Balinese Goddess of Plenty feeding all round her!)

Its a stressful time but you guys should do what's right for you and forget about all the 'helpful' advice.

You will probably find if the little blighter was active in the womb at night their little sleep clock is all messed and it will simply take a few weeks to adjust. The one you really need to worry about is your wife, they do really well up to the first six weeks or so and then as so often happens BAM! post natal can kick in - my senses were so dulled by that stage I hadn't realised it had kicked in!

Cheers
TS

We've got a 8 week old "velcro baby", we've given in, mothered him, nurtured him and he's becoming more and more independent by the week, at his own pace. I can understand older babies who are capable of understanding the feedback loop but it's a newborn ffs, not a dog!

It will get easier - despite giving ours "too much" attention, he slept for 8 hours with a single feed in the middle last night. He probably won't do it again tonight, he might do it again in a week but he's getting there and we'll continue to nurture, not train him.

OP: try getting her to fall asleep on one of you, I mean proper out for the count. Then swaddle, pick her back up, make sure she's out for the count still and only then try putting her down. Keep your palm on her chest for a minute or two to maintain that contact, and then slowly come away. And just keep at it.

Also, try infacol as already mentioned, helped our windy little monster.

ours is 7 weeks and cries a lot, using a dummy has really helped though, use it after feeds to help her settle. Mrs Anagallis feels guilty about using it but I dont read the books so worry less.

How are you getting on? Has it helped at all?

To an extent. It appears she may not have been suckling properly (despite being latched on for up to 90min) - much more settled with 'supplemental' feeding. Slightly more sleep last night; wife very fed up as she feels like she's 'failed' at breastfeeding, though the community midwives are saying that they can't see what else we can try and that it might be time to consider moving to bottle feeding, either with expressed milk or formula.

We are still knackered, but now there is a plan and a potential end in sight...

Andy

Ours was ok bar feeding every 3 hours. We found when he cluster fed, ie every hour for a wee bit then his colic was worse, so you will probably find that the supplementary feeding can help.

My wife found expressing and giving morning milk last thing gave us a longer sleep (4/5 hours!)

At 4 1/2 mths he is now on mixed feeding as he was getting very hungry and his Xmas present to us was to sleep for 8 hours from midnight for the 1st time.

My wife read Gina Ford and the Baby Whisperer. Once they get to 4-6 weeks you can try to get a routine but don't worry if they change for no reason all of a sudden.

One thing that really helped when he was small and colicing was this swaddle bag
[url= http://www.amazon.co.uk/Liberty-Slings-Swaddle-Pod/dp/B0017UXRVQ/ref=sr_1_4?s=baby&ie=UTF8&qid=1293399439&sr=1-4 ]Liberty sling swaddle bag[/url]

Ten day old baby here, screams the place down every night since coming home. Seems to be most comfortable sleeping on me so I've had to learn to sleep sitting up in bed.

During the day she's a wee darling, from 23:00 onwards a right screamer.

We tried infacol, it seems to work but it also seems to send her into screaming fits during the day so not yet convinced about it.

Hang in there, apparently it gets better....

Just a quick update. Spent the last two hours walking the lounge with screaming brat of our own. Infacol to the rescue at 02:40. Peace and quiet for the last ten mins feels like an hour...

To an extent. It appears she may not have been suckling properly (despite being latched on for up to 90min) - much more settled with 'supplemental' feeding. Slightly more sleep last night; wife very fed up as she feels like she's 'failed' at breastfeeding, though the community midwives are saying that they can't see what else we can try and that it might be time to consider moving to bottle feeding, either with expressed milk or formula.

On the breastfeeding thing, my wife found a local nct breastfeeding counsellor very helpful. I think they have a lot more training and knowledge than midwives or health visitors as they specialise completely in breastfeeding. Midwives here ranged from completely useless to actively unhelpful, health visitor was a complete waste of time. A couple of visits to the nct lady, and was much better. There is an nct helpline which I guess can put you in touch with them.

Whilst it appears to be bloody hard for a lot of people to begin with, worth trying hard at it, as (even ignoring the massive health benefits) breastfeeding is incredibly convenient once it is established, no messing around with sterilisation etc. you can just go places with your baby and know you'll always have food.

Joe (posting at ridiculous o clock as our 7 month old just woke up after a massive 5.5 hour block of sleep)

Put mums used clothes in the cot next to the babies head. It'll reassure the baby that mum is still there. Sorted.

Going to start an argument here.

wife very fed up as she feels like she's 'failed' at breastfeeding,

Bollocks to that. My wife tried incredibly hard with our first and it simply didn't work. Polly would suckle for hours on end and still (as we found out eventually) end up hungry. We tried midwife support, NCT, Laleche, books, videos, etc. and all it did was add to the stress. In the end my mum, herself a retired NCT counsellor lost her rag and ordered us to 'give that baby a bottle', and within a couple of days it was back on track. We started with expressed and then where Polly was so hungry soon ended on formula supplements, and eventually onto formula completely. There's no great faff with bottles, you can wash them in a moment, sterilise in the microwave, fill with cooled boiled water and then store them in the fridge. It was a ten minute routine.

What made me really angry was the comment from the midwife after we'd given her a bottle. She'd been so pro-breast, had given us tonnes of support, etc. that we were worried what she'd say because of the 'breast is best' argument. Couldn't have been more wrong; she was so supportive after and admitted she'd thought that might be what was needed. However: her breast to bottle ratio was too low (too many of her mothers on bottles) that her bosses at the PCT had given her notice to improve to meet PCT targets, and thus was using us as a means to improve her stats even though she deep down felt doing so was wrong. I wasn't angry at her actually, just at the target driven NHS that felt that her doing the best she could with the material she'd been given was less important than some semi-arbitrary number.

I did a lot of reading at the time and I'm not convinced by the breast is best argument - or at least not to the extent that seems to be portrayed. Formula milk is incredibly well researched and designed and while there are of course benefits to natural breast milk I'm not sold that there is a gulf in difference. You need to do what is right for you and the child, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. In our case, it turned a four week nightmare of screaming (hungry) baby, constantly crying mother with constantly bleeding nipples, and a stressed out father into an extremely pleasurable experience within a few days.

For balance; my second went onto the breast a dream and stayed on until her teeth came out at ca 6mo and she bit once too often 😯 We were much easier going second time round and I'm convinced the fact that we weren't stressed out over thinking it must be breast helped with that. Calm parents make calm children.

So back to Andy; by all means support Mum to persevere if that is what you want to do, but neither of you is failing if you choose to switch. Good luck.

[edit] sorry that's long but it still makes me angry now, nearly 7 years on.

I'm with theotherjonv here, do not consider switching to the bottle a failure.

My wife tried to breast feed with all 3 of ours and did so for about a week to 10 days with each and for various reasons had to stop (one time she had what the midwife described as "the worst rip-roaring case of mastitis I have ever seen").

All three of our children are healthy and vivacious, almost to an extreme at times, but I aware there is obviously more to that than what they were fed on when little.