Scotland Indyref 2

But perhaps you misunderstand what being part of the single market would involve ie giving up independence of fiscal and monetary policy and less sovereignty? The worst scenario would be a small country (having to fulfill entry criteria ouch!) being a member of a broken economic structure. As before that is the upmost folly.

Scotland already has little or no input on fiscal and monetary policy and less sovereignty than if we were an independent member of the single market.

I'll take being a member of a broken economic structure with a population of 500 million over being a member of a broken economic structure with a population of 60 million people.

Maybe you just don't understand how little influence Scotland has on how it is governed.

No i can see though politicians excuses a bit better and i understand how the single market works.

If it's going to be such a ballache to leave the EU, isn't it going to be an even bigger one to leave the UK and also re-join the EU possibly, or possibly have to wait outside both then re-join? Would businesses view this as unfavourably as Brexit?

But then, Scotland could enjoy a good position as the only other native English speaking country in the EU. But if there are special trade relationships with rUK being based in Scotland could allow access to both the EU and whatever trade empire rUK can create...

teamhurtmore - Member
I favour super majorities for such fundamental votes.
So do I.

Jo you are obviously far more sensible that your representatives who, in stark contrast, are jerking their knees faster than a reeling party goer

So we agree. Time for Nicola to STFU and concentrate on the job at hand until 2030. Stop the smokescreens and start delivering on your promises. That's what "the interests of the Scottish people" is all about not pointless grandstanding.

Like Theresa she has v weak oppo, but unlike her a much stronger majority. So no more excuses. Time for results. Scotland deserves better. See you for the 2030 referendum!!

Don't take that as an indication I wouldn't vote yes again tomorrow! 😆

The dislike of tory westminster is a powerful force! 😆 as ben alludes to.

I think overall my view of the 2014 ref, with hindsight, is that there was a lot of naivety to it.

Time for Nicola to STFU and concentrate on the job at hand until 2030.

Unionists keep saying this. It's odd because the SNP have been in power for a decade now, and are still incredibly popular - how do they do that if all they concentrate on is independence?

The obvious answer is that they're doing a lot of other things, including running the country in a pretty competent manner. They are capable of doing more than one thing at once - just look at the discussions going on now at their conference.

What's funny is that people have surveyed how much the SNP talk about independence versus other parties - and the other Scottish parties mention it an awful lot more than the SNP do!

Maybe you just don't understand how little influence Scotland has on how it is governed.

What? It has the same amount as England and Wales, actually slightly more.

are still incredibly popular - how do they do that if all they concentrate on is independence?

Maybe people are pro SNP for the same reasons they were pro Brexit in England? Lashing out at the establishment? Maybe it's simply reactionary rather than considered?

[quote=BruceWee ]I'll take being a member of a broken economic structure with a population of 500 million over being a member of a broken economic structure with a population of 60 million people.

How exactly does the greater number of people benefit you? The most obvious difference being that you'll have far less influence over the other 594 million than you do over the other 54 million. Are you seriously expecting that the greater number of people will result in Scotland doing more trade with them despite the opposite being the case at the moment - your previous musing about how things might change post independence have a similar level of fantasy to that of most Brexiters.

I think overall my view of the 2014 ref, with hindsight, is that there was a lot of naivety to it.

Well we agree again - as does Stiglitz the main econ advisor to the naive ones!

If you are going to do it, do it properly. Not half-arsed, half-baked and based purely on [s]anti-English[/s] anti-Westminster rhetoric and candy floss. And dont avoid the currency question next time - it wont go away and the € is not the answer either.

Scotland deserves better. Much better.

An independent Scotland in the single market will have access to a larger market for goods and services and have greater sovereignty than Scotland inside the a UK that is outside the single market.

The one thing we know about trade is that the current levels of trade between Scotland and rUK and the EU is going to change. You can't tell me how it's going to change and I can't tell you. I'm presenting an optimistic scenario and you're not presenting any scenario you're just telling me I'm being stupid.

Maybe you can say what you think is going to happen with Scotland outside the UK but inside the single market?

[quote=BruceWee ]An independent Scotland in the single market will have access to a larger market for goods and services and have greater sovereignty than Scotland inside the a UK that is outside the single market.

The same access as it has at present. Losing that access will make rather less difference than losing access to the rUK market - it's a simple matter of where Scotland does trade with. I'm just not sure of the benefits of trying to change that around given the geography involved.

My scenario is that the trade with the EU won't be much different than it is now (there's no obvious reason why it should be), whilst trade with the rUK will be reduced due to trade barriers, in the same way Brexit is an issue for Germany. The only reason trade with the EU would increase is as an attempt to make up for loss of trade with the rUK, but it's not going to make up for the loss. It being a larger market is somewhat irrelevant if you're not actually trading with it - the US or the world is an even larger market, why are you limiting your ambitions?

I'm fairly sure my scenario is rather more based in reality than your optimistic one.

BTW you mention sovereignty as well - exactly how does that directly benefit an ordinary Scottish person?

I find it hard to believe that rUK leaving the single market while Scotland stays won't result in any companies wanting to relocate to Scotland so they can continue business as usual. What do you think companies that rely heavily on trade with the single market will do if the UK leaves the single market? If they won't move to Scotland where will they go?

Like I said, Scotland is a small country so it doesn't take a large percentage of the firms currently based in England and Wales to relocate to have a large effect on trading.

As far as the sovereignty thing goes, I think you have to live in a small country to realise how close you are to members of the government.

When I moved to Norway I got chatting to a guy in a bar and it turns out he was the minister for culture. Apparently it was well known that this was his local.

The level of political engagement in Norway is far higher than it is in the UK because the politicians live amongst us.

A good illustration of what can happen when the prime minister pops out for some coffee and a paper.

[quote=BruceWee ]What do you think companies that rely heavily on trade with the single market will do if the UK leaves the single market? If they won't move to Scotland where will they go?

Ireland, Holland...

teamhurtmore - Member
One can argue that any nation, state, region, etc can be independent. Of course they can but that is not the question....

It is very much the question.

Everything else is embroidery around the edges.

Ireland, Holland...

What would make Ireland and Holland more desirable than Scotland to the extent that none of these businesses would move to Scotland?

No it isn't - its merely a statement.

What would make Ireland and Holland more desirable than Scotland to the extent that none of these businesses would move to Scotland?

Easy starter for ten - a less volatile currency. Marmite anyone?

Countering that of course, the left-of-centre (no really) government has the old lets compete on corporation tax card. So we have two tax types of "havens", but one with a more volatile currency driven by the price of a commodity whose supply and demand is driven by others (#fakecontrol2). Not a tough choice that one, is it?

[quote=BruceWee ]What would make Ireland and Holland more desirable than Scotland to the extent that none of these businesses would move to Scotland?

😆 there is a specific reason I picked those out of all the options available!

Though the most obvious other answer is that they will still be in the EU at the point the UK leaves.

To even make a stab at what might happen with trade, what industries are the main ones in Scotland? Could post Brexit the Rest of World make up for an lost EU trade?

O&G, Defence, Manufacturing
Food & Drink
Financial Services
Agriculture / Fishing
Tourism
Textiles
Electronics / Software

[img] [/img]

Easy starter for ten - a less volatile currency. Marmite anyone?

So now the Euro would be a good thing?

Though the most obvious other answer is that they will still be in the EU at the point the UK leaves.

That's why I said a Scotland in the single market. We need to get our finger out with this referendum.

Remember, Scotland is a small country. We don't need all the businesses, just some of them.

Bruce be sensible - the Euro? No that would be daft. You see, with a little thought you come back to same point. The interests of the Scottish people are best served as members of the UK coupled with a devolved assembly.

You can keep going round and round in circles - or believe the snake oil salesmen - but the hard truth remains the same. Why? Because its so bloody obvious which is why as Jo put it the last attempt looked so naive.

Bruce be sensible - the Euro? No that would be daft. You see, with a little thought you come back to same point. The interests of the Scottish people are best served as members of the UK coupled with a devolved assembly.

Holland and Ireland are more desirable because they use the Euro but the Euro is also such a massive folly you'd have to mad to use it?

In your opinion are there no businesses that would want to relocate from rUK outside the single market to an independent Scotland in the single market? Not a single one?

[quote=BruceWee ]In your opinion are there no businesses that would want to relocate from rUK outside the single market to an independent Scotland in the single market? Not a single one?

That's not my opinion - however if the prime reason for moving is access to the single market then it's far from the most desirable location, the options I suggested have pretty much everything Scotland has to offer along with other advantages. I'm sure you will get a few companies moving, but not the big players in the sort of scale you'd need for your vision.

Bruce - pause a little, This is becoming nonsensical now.

Holland and Ireland are more desirable because they use the Euro

As a foreign base - yes. A Scottish pound is likely to be more volatile due to the exposure to oil price. Why would you want that additional risk as a foreign company? (assuming similar tax rates etc).

but the Euro is also such a massive folly you'd have to mad to use it?

Different thing altogther. This is from the perspective of the home nation not the foreign company considering where to locate.

Of course, there is one hope - a disordely collapse pf the € - but the best place to "benefit" from that would to be part of the UK not as a marginal side player.

In your opinion are there no businesses that would want to relocate from rUK outside the single market to an independent Scotland in the single market? Not a single one?

No one is saying that, so why pose the question. Its irrelevant.

But once again, another circle but same end point. The interests of the Scottish people are best served as part of the UK.

It has the same amount as England and Wales, actually slightly more.

When did the election results in scotland last decide an election result for the UK?
Same questions for England please.

IIRC it was 1951 for both questions for scotland

After that they get the govt england votes for
Now you can argue that is fair within a Union or unfair as you see fit but its hard to argue they have the same influence as England

Unionists keep saying this. It's odd because the SNP have been in power for a decade now, and are still incredibly popular - how do they do that if all they concentrate on is independence

I voted for independance BTW

When did the election results in scotland last decide an election result for the UK?

2010 - we got a coalition instead of a Tory majority.

2015 - Scotland did it for labour (among other things) and delivered a Tory majority. Be careful what you wish for!!!

2015 - Scotland did it for labour (among other things) and delivered a Tory majority. Be careful what you wish for!!!

With only 1 Scottish MP the Tories would have got a UK majority without him. The only big difference in Scotland was the SNP tsking other non Tory seats.

If Labour had taken every Scottish seat there would still have been a Tory govt.

The inability of Labour to take Englush seats and the inability of the Lib Dems to hold seats let the Tories win their majority.

No one is saying that, so why pose the question. Its irrelevant.

Because if you're prepared to admit that at least some businesses will move to Scotland then we agree on that point and then it's just a question of numbers.

I think it will be enough to offset some of the loss of trade to the UK. You think it won't be enough. Neither one of us is working with a great deal of solid information so all we have is our ill-informed opinions.

So unless you've got some evidence to show that an insignificant number of businesses would relocate maybe you should tone down your scorn for other people's opinions.

Other people's ill-informed views are just as valid as yours, I'm afraid. Being a dick about presenting your opinions doesn't make you right, it just makes you a dick.

I think it will be enough to offset some of the loss of trade to the UK. You think it won't be enough. Neither one of us is working with a great deal of solid information so all we have is our ill-informed opinions.

Speak for yourself Bruce, I am working off the facts and informed analysis.. But as you said yesterday they result in tough answers and dont make you Mt Happy. Life really isnt fair is it?

If you want to call falsification of non-points "scorn", then so be it. The solution? Stick to sensible points rather than vague scenarios and, more importantly, the facts - accepting that having to listen to SNP groupthink might make that challenging.

Yours at large

Dickie xxx

molgrips
Maybe people are pro SNP for the same reasons they were pro Brexit in England? Lashing out at the establishment?

If Scotland leaves the UK and remains / joins the EU, I don't see Scotland being more attractive to business than anywhere else in the EU.
Native English isn't an advantage anymore, the language skills in most European capital is superb. transport and other infrastructure across European capitals are superior. If there's an exodus of business it will have lots of more attractive opportunities elsewhere in the EU.

Speak for yourself Bruce, I am working off the facts and informed analysis..

Thanks for that, I just spat out my Ovaltine.

As you were 😀

Native English isn't an advantage anymore, the language skills in most European capital is superb. transport and other infrastructure across European capitals are superior. If there's an exodus of business it will have lots of more attractive opportunities elsewhere in the EU.

Not only that, but as with Ireland, logistics becomes a real issue, as anyone who has sailed Rosyth to Zeebrugge will tell you, and the only other option becomes travelling through a non EU/single market country (rUK) to get there, so two sets of customs, paperwork galore. Being based in Ireland or Scotland for anything but service industries would be a nightmare.

Speak for yourself Bruce, I am working off the facts and informed analysis.

Citing facts without providing any evidence to back it up and pouring scorn on those who don't accept your fact, doesn't stw have a name for that? Jimbofact or something?

Ffs let's not do this again.

Saying a safe labour seat in Scotland is different to one in Wales or England is nationalism. SE Wales also doesn't have the government it voted for. Boo hoo, that's democracy. You don't always win. You're wanting special treatment because you're Scottish.

Ok so I am trolling a bit but the question is fundamentally that you believe you are a different nation. So let's make it clear. It's nothing to do with faulty representation within the UK system. You live in a UK constituency and you get one Westminster MP, same as everyone else. Except not, because you have an MSP too.

Re language - it's not just that, it's working practices too. And transport links too.

I wonder how so many companies manage to survive in Scotland just now then. It must only be because we are living next door to somewhere full of wonderful business people who can thrive no matter the political situation. A tiny bit of that must be rubbing off on us. We could never sustain any success at all without the guiding hand of our neighbors. Neighbors who are much more attractive to companies than Scotland. By god you are a patronising bunch of cocks.

molgrips - Member
...Boo hoo, that's democracy. You don't always win. You're wanting special treatment because you're Scottish...

Yes, we want special treatment - the same special treatment as all the other small nations in the world, the right to self determination.

km79 nails it. The opposition to Scottish independence is fundamentally racist.

[quote=km79 ]I wonder how so many companies manage to survive in Scotland just now then. It must only be because we are living next door to somewhere full of wonderful business people who can thrive no matter the political situation. A tiny bit of that must be rubbing off on us. We could never sustain any success at all without the guiding hand of our neighbors. Neighbors who are much more attractive to companies than Scotland. By god you are a patronising bunch of cocks.

[img] [/img]

Having lots of successful companies in Scotland at the moment (most of whom I imagine are serving the Scottish market, but for those exporting goods more of them are exporting to rUK than anywhere else) does not provide any evidence that companies are more likely to want to move there from rUK than to any other EU country full of successful companies.

teamhurtmore - Member
2015 - Scotland did it for labour (among other things) and delivered a Tory majority. Be careful what you wish for!!!

ahh the year the english people couldn't stomach the thought of a labour gov backed by as scottish party! 😆 hence the tory majority!

epicyclo - Member

The opposition to Scottish independence is fundamentally racist.

stop talking balls.

epicyclo - Member

km79 nails it. The opposition to Scottish independence is fundamentally racist.

Around 50% of Scottish people must be pretty conflicted then....

[quote=seosamh77 ]

epicyclo - Member
The opposition to Scottish independence is fundamentally racist.

Aha, time for us English folk to bow out of this thread and leave them to it?

epicyclo - Member

The opposition to Scottish independence is fundamentally racist.

Is it ****. There is definitely an element of xenophobia (as demonstrated in the last election campaign) but fundamentally? No. Racist? No. Gens una sumus. This is the last place we want to go.

aracer - Member
Aha, time for us English folk to bow out of this thread and leave them to it?

Don't do that, if anything turns me against scottish independence it'll be an epicyclo, chip on their shoulder, ultra nationalist takeover.

Thankfully that's not the main driver of it, imo.

Epicyclo a "chip on their shoulder, ultra nationalist" You really do not understand do you. Epicyclo is simply believes that Scotland is a nation and should have self determination. His position is by no means extreme.

He did suggest that those against it were racist though, tj

[quote="Sturgeon"]

And I will make sure that Scotland gets that chance ( [i]a second referendum[/i]). And let us be clear about this, too. If that moment does arise, it will not be because the 2014 result hasn’t been respected. It will be because the promises made to Scotland in 2014 have been broken.

“There are many no voters now looking at the Brexit vote with real dismay and wondering if independence might be the best option for Scotland after all.”

“Make no mistake, the threat to our economy is not just the prospect of losing our place in the single market – disastrous though that would be.

“It is also the deeply damaging – and utterly shameful – message that the Tories’ rhetoric about foreign workers is sending to the world. More than ever, we need to tell our European friends that Scotland is open for business.

“And let me be crystal clear about this – we cannot trust the likes of Boris Johnson and Liam Fox to do that for us.”

I think it's "The opposition to Scottish Independence is fundamentally racist" that we're objecting to, not that Scotland is a nation.

tjagain - Member
Epicyclo a "chip on their shoulder, ultra nationalist" You really do not understand do you. Epicyclo is simply believes that Scotland is a nation and should have self determination. His position is by no means extreme.

I understand perfectly fine, I've read his views for 3 years on scottish independence, he's exactly as I describe.

[quote=aracer ]He did suggest that those against it were racist though, tj

Point of order:
SIDEBAR
can you be an ultra- nationalist and not be racist?

Really can you ?
Genuine q as not been following the thread at all
all the ones i can think of are really rather racist

Surely we say nationalist to differentiate a nationalist from a racist and then ultra nationalist to indicate they have crossed a line

I also think its an unfair and inaccurate description of the person on here as well

Bruce - its a daft thing to say like that but there is certainly a strong tinge of racism underlying a lot of the nationalist sentiment we hear but to think Epicylo is some sort of raving loony ultra nationalist simply shows a lack of understanding of the whole Scottish political scene

*klaxon sounds*

TJ - step away from the political thread

*klaxon sounds*

TJ - step away from the political thread

tjagain - Member
but to think Epicylo is some sort of raving loony ultra nationalist simply shows a lack of understanding of the whole Scottish political scene

You could probably get a medal at the Olympics for that leap. 😆

Junkyard - lazarus
aracer » He did suggest that those against it were racist though, tj

Point of order:
SIDEBAR
can you be an ultra- nationalist and not be racist?
Really can you ?
Genuine q as not been following the thread at all
all the ones i can think of are really rather racist

Surely we say nationalist to differentiate a nationalist from a racist and then ultra nationalist to indicate they have crossed a line

I also think its an unfair and inaccurate description of the person on here as well

I'd refer to an ultranationalist as a blind nationalist. Whether racism is a crucial factor in that, I'd doubt, but it's not uncommon.

In a scottish context I'd refer to an ultra nationalist as the flag waving, propaganda supping, highland clearance waffling, saor alba-ist.

If thats your definition then thats around 30% or so of the population of scotland that are ultra nationalists. I prefer to call them Ideological nationalists
*klaxon goes.......................*

It really does bug me that epicyclo thinks he's oppressed by a government he doesn't want and has the right to one he does, whereas I have to put up with Tories because I'm not Scottish and I deserve Tories.

**** you, frankly. Just as much Tory opposition where I live and in other parts of the UK.

Well now you're just arguing semantics!

tjagain - Member
If thats your definition then thats around 30% or so of the population of scotland that are ultra nationalists. I prefer to call them Ideological nationalists
*klaxon goes.......................*

[quote=molgrips ]It really does bug me that epicyclo thinks he's oppressed by a government he doesn't want and has the right to one he does, whereas I have to put up with Tories because I'm not Scottish and I deserve Tories.
**** you, frankly. Just as much Tory opposition where I live and in other parts of the UK.
Still not clear about the concept of a country vs a region then? Let's get it clear- if there was the same amount of opposition to the Tory across England as in Scotland then there wouldn't be a Tory government.

Its his attitude* as much as anything else. As if sharing nationality (which I don't anyway) means I deserve it. As if all English are Tories.

* and yours too apparently

@molgrips - personally I'm still not sure why it is more undemocratic Scotland not getting the government it votes for (some of the time) than it is for the people of Shetland and Orkney who haven't got the government they voted for (at Westminster or Holyrood) since - well I can't actually be bothered to check exactly, but I think since the last Liberal government.

Junkyard - lazarus

can you be an ultra- nationalist and not be racist?

I reckon so. Nationalism doesn't have to have any racial tint at all. Like, my limited experience of non-french canadian nationalist zoomers is that they're incredibly inclusive zoomers, as long as you get being canadian. You can come from the moon and as long as you understand what a 2 line pass is it's all good. (no doubt there are awful canadian nationalists but that's not the point, these dudes are the proof of concept)

For your scottish nutters, there's definitely some that are outright racist and ime more that are xenophobic (and obviously a lot specifically anti-english) but there's equally a lot of "scottishness is a frame of mind" sort of stuff. I reckon I see more of that than most with my work, academia is full of outward looking scottish nationalism, I wouldn't assume it's typical but it's the sort I identify with and see most of day to day. There's a limit to how racist the 75% of SNP voters who want to stay in Europe can be really. Maybe typify it as people who want their country to be better rather than people who believe it couldn't possibly be better.

(one of the fiercest scottish nationalists I know is english, he moved here probably 20, 25 years ago and this is a quote, "Scotland is what would happen if England could learn from mistakes". Another is a new zealander and I remember when he was one of my lecturers, the first thing he said was that he'd be going home to the big island real soon. 20 years ago... He married a norn irish protestant and now he's scottish by adoption, or contagion possibly. But then he says scotland is just new zealand with worse weather and better career prospects.)

aracer - Member
@molgrips - personally I'm still not sure why it is more undemocratic Scotland not getting the government it votes for (some of the time) than it is for the people of Shetland and Orkney who haven't got the government they voted for (at Westminster or Holyrood) since - well I can't actually be bothered to check exactly, but I think since the last Liberal government.

The Scottish question isn't about democracy, it's about whether Scotland wants to go a different route all by itself, for good or bad, and whether it fundamentally disagrees with Westminster's direction enough to break off and go with a smaller democratic grouping and decide it's own fate..

Scotland within the uk isn't undemocratic.

Still not clear about the concept of a country vs a region then? Let's get it clear- if there was the same amount of opposition to the Tory across England as in Scotland then there wouldn't be a Tory government.

personally I'm still not sure why it is more undemocratic Scotland not getting the government it votes for (some of the time) than it is for the people of Shetland and Orkney who haven't got the government they voted for (at Westminster or Holyrood) since - well I can't actually be bothered to check exactly, but I think since the last Liberal government.

At some point we have to decide at what point a geographical block is governed;country is the fairly standard yardstick by which we do this.
It seems to confuse non scots though for some reason

Appreciate the answers re ultra- nationalism

I dont go home often enough to know and its not something i discuss with relatives.

i guess it also depends on your definition of ultra-nationalist.

I understand the argument JY, but it seems to need reprising because some people don't understand that irrespective of that there is nothing at all undemocratic about how Scotland is represented in governments. Of course if they become independent then the democracy will be different, but there will still be people unrepresented in the government which has to take decisions for the whole of the territory it rules.

It's kind of a side point though - for me the fundamental issue is whether being ruled from Holyrood rather than Westminster will make a substantive difference (let alone a positive one) to people's lives, or whether it's just an ideological thing. I have to admit I've become even more cynical about democracy recently!

aracer - Member
have to admit I've become even more cynical about democracy recently!

The issue of Sottish independence is an interesting one and there are plenty of things to discuss, but it should be much more than 'piss of English Tory scum' which is what it seems sometimes.

Leave democracy and political alignment out of it. As part of the UK you are represented the same as everyone else. Whether or not you want to be part of the UK is a different issue.

And I do think Sturgeon is using the Brexit vote to increase anti unionist sentiment for her own cause. Brexit has pushed all remainers away from government, and oh look what a happy coincidence...

So let's make it clear. It's nothing to do with faulty representation within the UK system. You live in a UK constituency and you get one Westminster MP, same as everyone else. Except not, because you have an MSP too.

🙂

@km I'm curious as to where you are thinking of going post Brexit, I say so a eurosceptism is strong and growing throughout Europe as is being reflected in increasingly right leaning election results esp in France, Austria, Holland and even in Germany (no benefits for EU citizens for 5 years).

The SNP are consumate opportunists as Indy Ref 2 provides a perfect distration from their failings in Government. The "lie" accusation is tried and tested (and well used by STWers too). The EU is a topical means to an end. All May has to do is hold firm for a few years and the impending EU financial implosion will wipe that argument away. Of course by that stage the SNP will have come up with something else

[quote=aracer ]for me the fundamental issue is whether being ruled from Holyrood rather than Westminster will make a substantive difference (let alone a positive one) to people's livesYou don't consider that remaining or leaving the EU is a substantive difference?

It's a substantive difference politically - what difference will it make to your day to day life? And if you think it will make a negative difference, then will leaving the UK be positive or negative?

molgrips - Member
'piss of English Tory scum' which is what it seems sometimes

I'd disagree there, it's view by a lot as an available out to get away from tory-ism. Rather than sticking 2 fingers up.

Which is only partly true, we'll get away from tory dominance of politics, but scotland has a share of its own tories.

Exactly...

aracer - Member
then will leaving the UK be positive or negative?

Depends on who gets power, and the successive governments there after. It's an impossible question to answer.

You can only really argue about what the starting point for an IS would be. And we can all agree that is a country with a large deficit and debt.

Otherwise, it'll be down to "scottish" democracy and it's people to make what they will of it and to decide whether it turns out better or worse. You'll need a chrystal ball to know that. There will always be an element of faith involved there.

A good general answer, but I was trying to compare it with UK leaving the EU. I think most of us here see that as being distinctly negative - it seems easy to draw parallels with Scotland leaving the UK, which would have similar effects on both economies. Just trying to generate a new argument here rather than reprising all the old ones - of course we don't know what would happen in the future, but the starting point would not only be a country with a large deficit and debt, but one with trade barriers between it and it's majority trading partner.

The thing is though, to come back to the point I was trying to make, the most significant difference constitutional change makes to the life of an ordinary person is to the performance of the economy which directly relates to the amount of money in your pocket. Other than that what real difference would it make to people's lives?

Well that's one of the reasons I now favour a wait and see approach. As how many trade barriers go up between the EU and the UK will be fairly indicative of what would happen between england and scotland.

My instinct is not very many in any real sense.

Basically, I think the wait and see approach is prudent, because the brexit thing will basically answer alot of questions, that right now, are basically open ended and can only be answered via wild speculation.

The brexit negotiations will help the IS argument.

there is nothing at all undemocratic about how Scotland is [s]represented in governments[/s]always governed by who the english vote for

The english just voted for brexit as they dont like to be ruled by foreigners though they then seem to think it weird that the scottish feel the same

I suspect the most Brexitee folk are also the most Unionist as well and critical of "ultra nats"- let not have a sidebar on this please.

I dont really get why you dont understand why a substantial number of a country will be irked by constantly getting a govt that england votes for an often one that is diametrically opposed to how they generally vote
there is an obvious democratic deficit, that partial independence tried to cure, that fuels all this talk.

Until that is addressed either by westminster or independence it will remain

I have no westminster based solution other than federalism

Junkyard - lazarus
there is nothing at all undemocratic about how Scotland is represented in governmentsalways governed by who the english vote for

its does not read that well really does it
The english just voted for brexit as they dont like to be ruled by foreigners though they then seem to think it weird that the scottish feel the same

I suspect the most Brexitee folk are also the most Unionist as well and critical of "ultra nats"- let not have a sidebar on this please.

I dont really get why you dont understand why a substantial number of a country will be irked by constantly getting a govt that england votes for an often one that is diametrically opposed to how they generally vote
there is an obvious democratic deficit, that partial independence tried to cure, that fuels all this talk.

Until that is addressed either by westminster or independence it will remain

I have no westminster based solution other than federalism

I don't not understand it. I get it and it's probably one if my main motivators in wanting independence, I'd like away from the tory dominance, myself...

I just don't think it's correct to call it undemocratic. Democracy by it's very nature leaves a lot of people unhappy.

If you're going to reprise that argument JY, I'll just go and find another constituency which has voted Liberal for the last 100 years. Or maybe just a voter who has voted Green all their life. Because democracy is working just as poorly for them as it is for Scotland. Which doesn't make the system undemocratic in any way.

Maybe it's just that I have trouble seeing Scottish people as foreigners.

edit: actually joseph has it - it may be an argument for independence, but it would be helpful if people stopped calling it undemocratic when it isn't.