MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
What School did you go to BruceWee? 😉
Let's just say I never got the day off for elections.
And then off to the Middle East to escape the religious intolerance 🙂
England-Scotland must have their equivalent Renault-Nissan Sunderland plant, BMW and Honda factories, Airbus Bristol, Computer manufacturers, city fund operators... which will demonstrably impacted by putting them on different sides of a border. Come on locals, you must know some. I can point to fisheries, the oil sector, Whisky food and other beverages... which are major exports to the EU and say that rejoining the EU would be a bigger positive than leaaving the UK would be a negative. There must be counter examples I just can't think of one or name a company.
Things may be better in 10-20 years but isn’t that just the same crap that brexit proponents spout.
Well anyone who thinks independence would be an overnight magic solution to all of Scotland's problems is clearly deluded. Nobody should be voting yes for benefits they will gain in one or two parliamentary cycles. The problem is the "status quo" is known and safer and lower risk argument is out the window because of Brexit. If we wait 20 years to have another referendum then Brexit might have started to sort itself out and those arguments will reemerge together with probably new ones about us having diverged from EU too much to make a closer relationship easy, etc.
There’d also be the need to setup government departments to duplicate functions that are currently done UK wide which obviously costs money.
Devolution means we already have a lot of duplication, for better or worse. Setting up new departments gives the option to "do it right" (not a guarantee that they will) and embed systems which are more efficient. And of course, in some cases, especially around regulation the argument would be EU would resume those aspects. One major area we would need to set up, and spend money on is defence - but there's a strong feeling in most of Scotland that Trident is a waste of money, so its not like we will be rushing to build a nuclear arsenal.
After seeing the utter disaster of brexit I’m amazed anyone would want independence in the near term.
There are definitely lessons to learn! However:
The English (lets not pretend otherwise) negotiating position would be entirely hostile as anything else would go down badly with large chunks of the electorate.
Imagine a friend said to you she was thinking of leaving her husband, but was concerned that based on his previous behaviour it would be a horribly hostile divorce, so thought should just keep quiet and carry on unhappy. What would you advise? Imagine a cycling club said they were more focussed on touring than racing so were going to disaffiliate from British Cycling (because of some new (hypothetical for the purposes of this illustration) rule BC have that you can't be BC and UK Cycling affiliated - but where scared BC would make life very difficult for a handful of members who need BC more than others. What would you say?
If the main reason to stay in a relationship is because the other party will make life horrible if you leave - that's not a good relationship.
If you are in a generation which misses out because of Brexit, why would you want to wait till the next generation to start making changes? If you care about Scotland's Drug problems why would you want to wait 20 years to get the freedom to make your own drug laws and tackle the issues the way you want? If you believe that taxation needs major reform, why would you want to be locked to a tax system which is only ever a tinkering of the Westminster levels? And, perhaps this is an issue which more "anti-SNP" people need to wake up to, if you want to see politics in Scotland not be dominated by the SNP either because you are a strong advocate for progressive, left wing, workers rights ideals or because you would like to see a smaller state, greater free enterprise and lower taxation then independence will achieve that. The SNP won't disappear overnight come independence but the political debate in Scotland will move to what sort of country do you want Scotland to be rather than, do you want Scotland to be a country at all. Its an opportunity for left or right to stand up for what they believe in and challenge the status quo. The SNP aren't in power because everyone in Scotland thinks independence is the answer to all the problems - they are in power because the opposition parties consistently fail to propose Scottish solutions, rather than English policies with a tartan ribbon on them.
There would certainly be hostility from parts of the rUK electorate (strong pro-Union voices in Wales and NI will be just as keen to stop it becoming a trend), but I'm not sure whether those noisy voices would want to see a difficult deal which puts borders on the A1/M74 and makes it harder to visit their holiday house, move goods etc. Plenty of them will be opportunist too - so if there is a way to use a Scottish route to the EU market they'd be keen to exploit that! In fact I suspect that the Brexiteers who think UK got a bad deal would even see this as a way to tweak the deal with Europe - "look we are giving you Scotland back, you'll get its fisheries, can we talk about xxxx".
Those leading the yes vote will need to win over people like me with a proper detailed strategy and implementation.
Wonder if George Washington was held to this...
Those leading the yes vote will need to win over people like me with a proper detailed strategy and implementation. It can’t be a tartan bus with a slogan on it. If Brexit has taught us anything it is that the responsibility to give the workings out and the fine details lays with the side arguing for change from the status quo.
It will be interesting to see if the SNP do this
Tbf as brexit has shown quite well that many things won't be known, because they'll need to be negotiated but in contrast to brexit a plan could be set out & detailed.
Of course one of the secrets of Brexit (& Johnsonism) is to give no details, no plan, just slogans & jingoism
In fact the Brexit /tory way is to attack any sort of intellectualism as project fear/ doomongering, experts, judges etc are the enemy
Its a tightrope, the SNP need to be popular without being populist, Sturgeon is good at speaking to the public as grownups in a way that compulsive liar Johnson never could, yet he is charming and will Shapeshift as needed, Sturgeon/SNP need to be able to sell the dream of indy, not just the detailed plan
England-Scotland must have their equivalent Renault-Nissan Sunderland plant, BMW and Honda factories, Airbus Bristol, Computer manufacturers,
mmm... not so much, huge manufacturing in Scotland died out with Thatcher! When you exclude Oil - food and drink is our largest export, followed by technology. Most of our really big electronics stuff has been offshored long ago. There are lots of medium sized tech firms, the sort who probably suffer most from Brexit - because they aren't big enough to scare governments with shutting plants.
city fund operators…
financial services is a very important industry. In 2014 there was much talk of them all going to move to London if there was a Yes vote. It would be interesting to see what the position is if it happens again. I suspect the opposite may be true for some firms!
There must be counter examples I just can’t think of one or name a company.
Defence contractors engaged by UK government would be the only obvious one to me. The other big employment 'risk' would be the military bases, in particular, the submarine bases on the clyde - but they can't go overnight unlike a car factory. Those are the sort of scale where when they do close its not just the direct employees but whole areas which suffer. Huge swathes of Scotland are still suffering from those type of closures in the past.
yet he is charming
Really?
He had better ramp that charm right up to max for his wee Scotland tour then.
I am sure it's all very 'essential travel'.
https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnson-scotland-snp-second-independence-referendum-844559
Its a tightrope, the SNP need to be popular without being populist, Sturgeon is good at speaking to the public as grownups in a way that compulsive liar Johnson never could, yet he is charming and will Shapeshift as needed, Sturgeon/SNP need to be able to sell the dream of indy, not just the detailed plan
Its interesting Brexit wasn't supposed to win! In fact I'm sure enough of the vote to make the win/lose difference was just a protest vote against Cameron and the incumbent party. The SNP face the same problem but the other way round - the protest vote against the SNP is a NO vote, that doesn't mean they want to Stay just they don't want "Nicola" to win. The more noise Boris makes the more risk he becomes the "incumbent" voted against...
I think both parties need to show what a future looks like beyond their current personalities though. It shouldn't come down to that for such an important decision but one of the most common reasons I heard for No last time was "I don't like Salmond" and there's a big part of Scotland who "don't like wee Jimmy crankie". Nothing to do with policy or politics - they don't like the leader. Given then difficult discussions she faces around inquiries and forgetting meetings etc - it could do no harm to be making the next generation of SNP more visible... its presumably not John Swinney? Is it Kate Forbes? line those up against a Borris, then Gove etc... and suddenly we might have an immigration problem of our own - as the whole of England tries to move north!
Huge swathes of Scotland are still suffering from those type of closures in the past.
....as a direct result of successive Westminster governments and, maybe more crucially, opposition parties too, of either stripe, not giving a shit about anything that happens to anyone that talks a bit funny.
I live in a post industrial wasteland shithole due to the direct intervention of Thatcher, but at least she was open and honest about her intentions and motivations and had the conviction to follow through on them.
The real villains of the piece were the Labour opposition who stood idly by and did absolutely nothing but still relied on a faithful populace to blindly vote for them year after year.
It's no wonder that independence is an attractive proposition.
Well Edukate me then. I just follow what’s reported in the press and Spain is on dodgy ground over Human rights in Catalonia. It wouldn’t take a lot to tip the Commission in the Catalans favour. The Spanish kept a very/surprisingly low profile over Gibralta during the Brexit negotiations.
https://euobserver.com/political/146271
Dodgy ground lol, you mean the failed coup? The Spanish government was lenient with the leaders of this coup, in order to pander to Podemos.
Even if this was right, it has nothing to do with granting independence to Catalunya. The EU have nothing to gain from stirring the pot of Cataluña, it’s bad for business both nationally and internationally. Catalunya’s independence much like Brexit, is fueled by hate and big money.
Spain benefits very much over having a good relationship with Britain, there are many people whose jobs depend on British tourism and expats. Spain doesn’t kick a fuss about everything much like France has been doing under Emperor Macron, especially when again there is not much to gain.
There are already enough problems in Spain, however there is one thing that the whole country gets pissed off about, and that is the Cataluña coup. Hence if the SNP tried to force it through, in any way that gave any legitimacy to Catalunya doing the same, it would be blocked.
Furthermore you are grossly overestimating the desirability of iScotland re entering the EU. It will be a new state, with a new currency, with an economy of 200billion(maybe net contributor in best case scenario?), which is not that much by EU standards, with its biggest trading partner being the UK.
There are already enough problems in Spain, however there is one thing that the whole country gets pissed off about, and that is the Cataluña coup. Hence if the SNP tried to force it through, in any way that gave any legitimacy to Catalunya doing the same, it would be blocked.
Scotland is no longer part of the EU, how can Spain block it?
Furthermore you are grossly overestimating the desirability of iScotland re entering the EU
Fishing - Scotland controls most of the UK fishing grounds. Oil, renewable energy, net contributor, good previous relationships (EU students etc)
But the biggest thing is prestige. How much would the EU enjoy going back to 28 and sticking two fingers up to little england?
Hence if the SNP tried to force it through, in any way that gave any legitimacy to Catalunya doing the same, it would be blocked.
When the UK was in the EU this was very pertinent. Spain would veto iScotland rejoining so as not to allow Catalunya to think it could be independent and remain in the EU
Now its irrelevant and a bunch of spanish politicians have said so
Scotland is no longer part of the EU, how can Spain block it?
IIRC any member can veto a new member. That's not to say they would but your question was how can they.
Really?
He had better ramp that charm right up to max for his wee Scotland tour then.
I am sure it’s all very ‘essential travel’.
Safest time for him to come - when we are all locked down!
IIRC any member can veto a new member. That’s not to say they would but your question was how can they.
Baboonz was saying Spain could block Scotlands independence 😳
The real villains of the piece were the Labour opposition who stood idly by and did absolutely nothing but still relied on a faithful populace to blindly vote for them year after year.
Well said.When I could first vote in 1986 the SNP were still the "Tartan Tories." I voted for Labour because that's what we did. They did NOTHING for us and jumping into bed with the Tories for Bitter together says everything about their priorities.
There are lots of medium sized tech firms, the sort who probably suffer most from Brexit – because they aren’t big enough to scare governments with shutting plants.
Another inconvenient fact is that post independence are the EU rules of origin for rUK manufacturers exporting to the EU. A lot of suppliers to the rUK manufacturing sector in iS may have to consider their location.
Gigaplants for car batteries for UK car manufacturers, I really doubt any are going to be in Scotland.
When the UK was in the EU this was very pertinent. Spain would veto iScotland rejoining so as not to allow Catalunya to think it could be independent and remain in the EU
Now its irrelevant and a bunch of spanish politicians have said so
Read again what I have written. FYI: A bunch of Spanish politicians have been flip-flopping on this issue, since once again its a delicate issue that has to do more with Catalunya than with Scotland doing everything right.
But the biggest thing is prestige. How much would the EU enjoy going back to 28 and sticking two fingers up to little england?
Little England you mean the 2 trillion (minus iScotland) economy. I'm sure the French and German would love to stick it up to England, but the question is do the other remaining members have any energy or care for this?
Scotland is no longer part of the EU, how can Spain block it?
Blocking the fast track entry to EU I mean lol.
Safest time for him to come – when we are all locked down!
Aye,would I get fined/locked up if I went to Perth* with a placard saying "Piss off ya Bawbag"? Keep a lookout on Reporting Scotland 😉
*He always goes there
Fishing – Scotland controls most of the UK fishing grounds. Oil, renewable energy, net contributor, good previous relationships (EU students etc)
Fish you have lots but there are largely overfished at the moment, , oil have you heard of climate change?, Renewables unstitching and allocating all the subsidies being paid to the asset owners is going to be a fun exercise for someone. Future schemes are your own problem and I don't see you exporting hydrogen to Norway. Net contributor? How much? Or will iS be a net receiver?
But the biggest thing is prestige. How much would the EU enjoy going back to 28 and sticking two fingers up to little england?
I really don't get why people think there is any anti English sentiment in the indyref2 campaign and it's campaigners? It's unabashed "civic" joy of a golden future.............
Aye,would I get fined/locked up if I went to Perth* with a placard saying “Piss off ya Bawbag”? Keep a lookout on Reporting Scotland
I think you are safe for a bit, this hasn't been enacted yet
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-53580326
There are already enough problems in Spain, however there is one thing that the whole country gets pissed off about, and that is the Cataluña coup.
On the sample size of Spannish people I know that's not true. My friend from Zarautz is Basque born but not in favour of independence for either the Basque country or Cataluna, but still thinks that the long jail sentences dished out were counter productive. Madrid is fueling extremism rather than producing convincing evidence and making policies that convince people a united Spain is beneficial to all.
On the sample size of Spannish people I know that’s not true. My friend from Zarautz is Basque born but not in favour of independence for either the Basque country or Cataluna, but still thinks that the long jail sentences dished out were counter productive. Madrid is fueling extremism rather than producing convincing evidence and making policies that convince people a united Spain is beneficial to all.
Again you are deluded. They were prosecuted for lesser crimes than what it was possible. For this there was an outrage in Spain. Madrid has been notorious at mismanaging its money(this is unquestionable), particularly dedicating funds at regions that offer very poor return on investment (and are also much poorer); hence the slogan "Espanya ens roba", translates to "Spain steals from us". Theres also the issue of the central government officials always being from the same region. Then there is this...
The not uncommon practice of harassing families of politicians that dont agree with independence:
https://www.elmundo.es/cronica/2017/12/10/5a2c22c8e2704e3d288b45e0.html
Kids being indoctrinated and discriminated early in school:
https://www.elmundo.es/espana/2017/10/27/59f2f923ca474159308b457b.html
LOL at Godwins
Quite a few European countries have separatist movements of one form or another developed politically to greater or lesser extents.
I don't think they are directly relevant and ultimately I don't think concerns about them will prevent EU membership for iS. I do think it will mean a longer pathway and the need for close alignment to the requirements for membership as a reality check against those trying to fracture European states
Gigaplants for car batteries for UK car manufacturers, I really doubt any are going to be in Scotland.
Do you think there is a realistic prospect for large volume battery manufacture in Scotland if we remain in the UK? Its seems an odd place to put it. I'd be putting it close to the car manufacturers, and as conveniently located as possible for import of raw materials.
Is big&daft a paid troll, or just doing it for free?
Somebody thought there was, the UK government!
Is big&daft a paid troll, or just doing it for free?
I can confirm that I received no Merks or Bawbees for this
Quite a few European countries have separatist movements of one form or another developed politically to greater or lesser extents.
I don’t think they are directly relevant and ultimately I don’t think concerns about them will prevent EU membership for iS. I do think it will mean a longer pathway and the need for close alignment to the requirements for membership as a reality check against those trying to fracture European states
Is big&daft a paid troll, or just doing it for free?
Yet another civic, inclusive comment testament to the openness of some of the people supporting iScotland. He is a Russian bot trying to keep the UK together by asking questions and delivering reality checks. Similar to those asked in the Brexit threads.
Is big&daft a paid troll, or just doing it for free?
Free
Is big&daft a paid troll
#fakenews, straight out of the Trump playbook, don't like the questions someone is asking, play the man. Seem to be quite a few iS supporters on this thread doing the same.
Yet another civic, inclusive comment testament to the openness of some of the people supporting iScotland. He is a Russian bot trying to keep the UK together by asking questions and delivering reality checks. Similar to those asked in the Brexit threads.
Nope, he's a either a troll or an idiot.
He has been pulled up numerous times for expecting higher levels of certainty from indy supporters than he expects from unionists.
Every time this has been pointed out he has responded with a sarky comment.
He is trying to derail the discussion without contributing anything himself. He expects everyone to treat every barrier he comes up with as undisputed fact whereas every solution anyone offers is dismissed as unicorns.
As has been said several hundred times, we don't have any more information than you. We can't tell you for sure how the UK government is going to react and we can't tell you exactly how the EU is going to react.
Guess what, neither can you. So your 'facts' are actually your opinion but treating your opinion as anything other than an absolute fact is apparently brexit level delusion. If you want to engage in the debate then you have to at least acknowledge your own level of uncertainty.
If you just want to troll then keep doing what your doing.
stumpyjon
I will quite happily engage with you, kennyp or anyone else who wants to have a decent debate.
I will not engage with someone who is attempting to anger me , who puts words in my mouth and then uses those words to condemn and who is deliberately derailing the debate
He has been pulled up numerous times for expecting higher levels of certainty from indy supporters than he expects from unionists.
Which is completely legitimate, unionists aren't trying to fundamentally change the structure of our country. We can all see what Unionism gives us, you may not like it, in many ways it's not serving people brilliantly north or south of the border, more to do with Westminster politics than unionism per se. However if you say scrap it you need to explain what comes after, how it will be realistically achieved and what the likely benefits will be and how that leaves Scotland in a better place than at the moment.
we don’t have any more information than you
So you don't have the answers to legitimate questions but are prepared to back independence on faith?
TJ
I will not engage with someone who is attempting to anger me
I don't think we're trying to offend, unfortunately emotions on this subject seem to running rather high, especially from the iS side of the argument. We're actually finding it quite frustrating as from our perspective this is panning out exactly like Brexit, which given many of the pro iS posters here were articulate defenders of remain is even more depressing.
Anyway, I stand by my previous comment, descending to call someone a troll because you don't like what they are asking is not debate. We do have obvious trolls on the forum from time to time BnD is not one of them.
I have not taken offense at anything you say stumpy. perfectly happy to debate with you
Big and daft has referred to me as "Gove", "the englishman" and other pejorative terms He has put words in my mouth and then attempted to use them to belittle me.
He has sneeringly dismissed my views and opinions but stated his own views and opinions as facts even when they are demonstrably false
His sneering tone is unpleasant. He has deliberately attempted to make me irate. ~Exactly the same modus operandi as THM
Readback on his posts
We’re actually finding it quite frustrating as from our perspective this is panning out exactly like Brexit,
Its really nothing like brexit as there was a detailed plan last time which i am sure will be updated in plenty of time. No empty slogans nor lies nor manipulation
What are you finding frustrating and / or have not had answers to? I'll attempt to answer them.
Nope I am merely querying some of the contradictory assertions from iS supporters on this thread. Can Scotland be independent, yes. Is it big enough, yes. Is it capable, yes. Is there a draft plan, assuming some rehash of the Scotland Act or similar yes there is something not a vacuum. I am just asking about the snakeoil that is being used to lubricate the iS campaign wheels
No Giga factories planned in Scotland? UK government put £10m of development cash in
EU membership possible? Half a dozen posts up there saying it's possible and the various European separatist movements and issues are not likely to be a constraint on future membership. I am questioning how iS prepares and the timeframe
He is trying to derail the discussion without contributing anything himself. He expects everyone to treat every barrier he comes up with as undisputed fact whereas every solution anyone offers is dismissed as unicorns.
The "transitional pound" for EU membership is a "unicorn", it's either the Euro (perfectly sound strategy), a Scottish currency ( perfectly sound strategy) or another EU member currency (less than convinced). The Euro and Scottish currency come with issues but do enable EU membership, one issue is that there will be a transition which takes time and that needs to be embedded before EU membership.
So as others have pointed out EU membership is not "virtually instant" post independence just on that one issue, nevermind fiscal alignment, or even mandate etc.
There are statements that Scotland would be a net contributor to the EU, all I have asked is how much?
Then we get the border issue. On day one of independence the EU (unless iS can quickly negotiate a deal) will be deemed by the EU as a third country for rules of origin purposes which then impacts the ability of rUK manufacturers to use iS parts as they need to achieve 55% by value of rUK origin to avoid tariffs. Join the EU and then the EU insist on a single market border between England and Scotland
No anti English sentiment?
How many times have the phrases "little England" or "little Englander" been posted by iS campaigners on this thread, never mind the tropes about despite having nearly proportionately double the number of immigrants compared to Scotland, England is some xenophobic hell hole. But challenge the iS campaigners on this and there is a cognitive dissonance.
Maybe the unionist campaign should be centred on how "not as crap as they say" England (not Wales they are already OK as they aren't English) England is and how many Scots have made their home here. After all the Scots living in England wouldn't chose to live in a xenophobic hell hole would they.
Nope you're trolling under the guise of raising pertinent points
Anyway, I stand by my previous comment, descending to call someone a troll because you don’t like what they are asking is not debate. We do have obvious trolls on the forum from time to time BnD is not one of them.
Tbf b&d is just asking the same question over & over again, because he knows no one has an answer
And it's a good question, because it matters, the 2014 plan to transition from. £ slowly was shot down by Westminster,
SNP talking about their own reserve Bank now, which is probably oy way, but not easy & no real details so far
The Brexit analogies are fair in a sense, but a lot has changed since 2014, not least brexit -
If unionists think banging on & on about technicalities of currency whilst ignoring what Johnsons hard brexit & endless broken promises means for Scotland then they've not learnt anything from the Brexit ref
who puts words in my mouth and then uses those words to condemn
What words have I put in your mouth? I am careful to quote accurately but anyone can make an error and I am happy to recognise any where I have not used the words you posted
The only condemnation is that the iS campaign looks, smells, and uses the same tactics as another rather crappy referendum campaign not too long ago. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck you can understand why people think it's a duck
I can understand why being called the Edinburgh Michael Gove stings a bit and could be argued to be impolite. I do feel there is a post retirement place for you in Scottish politics and you would have a lot to (positively) contribute.
Nope you’re trolling under the guise of raising pertinent points
I take the point that the delivery needs work, the relevance of the points still stands
Then we get the border issue. On day one of independence the EU (unless iS can quickly negotiate a deal) will be deemed by the EU as a third country for rules of origin purposes which then impacts the ability of rUK manufacturers to use iS parts as they need to achieve 55% by value of rUK origin to avoid tariffs. Join the EU and then the EU insist on a single market border between England and Scotland
Brexit has shown that the EU can be flexible on this, certainly during offering a transition period, fair enough to say that it's something no on can nail down until its agreed and as you point out this won't be instant
No anti English sentiment?
How many times have the phrases “little England” or “little Englander” been posted by iS campaigners on this thread, never mind the tropes about despite having nearly proportionately double the number of immigrants compared to Scotland, England is some xenophobic hell hole. But challenge the iS campaigners on this and there is a cognitive dissonance.
You are conflating anti Tory/Brexiteer with anti English, the tories are pushing ever harder to the right & I can't see Labour making a dent in their popularity any time soon, STILL at 40% popularity despite a world beating mishandling of COVID!
Maybe the unionist campaign should be centred on how “not as crap as they say” England (not Wales they are already OK as they aren’t English) England is and how many Scots have made their home here. After all the Scots living in England wouldn’t chose to live in a xenophobic hell hole would they.
I think they moved for the weather, well my uncle did (also to escape his ex)
In case it got missed at the page turn
We’re actually finding it quite frustrating as from our perspective this is panning out exactly like Brexit,
Its really nothing like brexit as there was a detailed plan last time which i am sure will be updated in plenty of time. No empty slogans nor lies nor manipulation
What are you finding frustrating and / or have not had answers to? I’ll attempt to answer them.
Comparison with Vote Leave is pretty daft tho
They actually did drive around a bus with massive lies on the side, & did the whole turkey thing, coordinated with farage:
Goves Turkey claims & Farage migrant poster were on same day & obviously coordinated
They made experts the enemies of the people
Its fairly insulting to equate TJ with Gove
And those kind of insults will bring no one to unionism
Which is completely legitimate, unionists aren’t trying to fundamentally change the structure of our country.
Which would be a fair point if it wasn't for the fact that the Union as we have known it for the last 40 years came to an end at the beginning of this month.
Unionists can no longer claim to be the 'safe' or 'continuity' option because it will take at least 10 years for the UK to figure out it's place and the relationship it wants with the rest of the world.
In actual fact, independence offers a return to what we already know, ie having close ties to Europe either as a full EU member or as an EFTA member.
Scotland knows where it wants to end up, England doesn't. We're not even asking for a detailed plan, we just want to know what the hell England wants.
TJ, fair response and glad you're happy to continue the conversation, I'm not intending to offend.
What are you finding frustrating and / or have not had answers to?
Good question, a lot of the iS reasoning seems to be around getting away from Westminster (which I get, I think many of the more sane people south of the border would like to jettison the idiots, Gove and Johnson in particular). It seems to me there is a conflating of getting away from Westminster dominance with Scotland doing better than it currently does and I can't see it. Of course Scotland will be able to make it's own decisions if independent, but that's subject to lots more outside pressures you can't control, the same fallacy of the Brexiteers taking back control in a global world, if you want to play by with others you can't have everything your own way. If a country as large as the UK is finding this I'm sure a smaller independent country the size of Scotland will have even less clout.
I'm also struggling with the long term prosperity of Scotland, will the economy implode after independence, doubt it, will it grow, I can't see how. Scotland is geographically at an extreme of Europe surrounded by sea. If it was part of the main land mass I could see more opportunities.
Industry in Scotland isn't massive, oil is slowly on it's way out and not a finite resource, most of Scotland's trade is with rUK.
The cost of independence (fiscally and politically) is going to be massive, will any potential gains net that off over the next 20 years.
I fully get that Scotland has been shafted by Westminster, so have we all, I just don't see independence as being the answer to the current situation.
I think they moved for the weather,
It wasn't to Oldham then. Devon is subtropical in comparison
You are conflating anti Tory/Brexiteer with anti English, the tories are pushing ever harder to the right & I can’t see Labour making a dent in their popularity any time soon, STILL at 40% popularity despite a world beating mishandling of COVID!
Labour need to do better but it's hard to judge the level to go out in a national crisis so they have my sympathy. iS campaigners need to stop reading the daily mail to find something to be angry about that way they might realise they are playing into the outrage ping pong that it thrives on. That way they might stop using tropes which sow division, create false paradigms and other the people of England
a lot of the iS reasoning seems to be around getting away from Westminster
Its about self determination. a slightly different thing. Its about having the ability to do what we want - to be a modern social democracy. Its a positive thing of wanting to movge towards something not away from something
If a country as large as the UK is finding this I’m sure a smaller independent country the size of Scotland will have even less clout.
We look to flourishing modern social democracies like finland, sweeden, the netherlands. they seem to be managing fine. Of course being a part of a larger union the EU gives strength. We don't want to be billy big baws
At the last ref there was an attempt by the unionists to say iScotland would have no more influence than finland. We all looked at each other and said " seems about right" that attack got no traction at all
I fully get that Scotland has been shafted by Westminster, so have we all, I just don’t see independence as being the answer to the current situation.
Why is scotland unable to flourish when finland, sweeden and Ireland can? We have a wealth of advatages they do not.
Independence would allow scotland to have fiscal policies aligned to our needs not the needs of london. It would allow us to have immigration policies to suit. It would alloow us to invest in alternative energy where we still have the potential to be a world leader despite a wasted decade
The “transitional pound” for EU membership is a “unicorn”, it’s either the Euro (perfectly sound strategy), a Scottish currency ( perfectly sound strategy) or another EU member currency (less than convinced). The Euro and Scottish currency come with issues but do enable EU membership, one issue is that there will be a transition which takes time and that needs to be embedded before EU membership.
This is perhaps one of the key issues, that has not been addressed appropriately. Due to the harsh criticism of Brexit by Scotland, you would expect a much more detailed and thought out plan.
On another note, I love the UK, I have lived in both Scotland and England (no live in England), and loved it there. I have seen the damage that a separatist movement can do to a region (in Spain), both economically and socially, hence I am extremely cynical of them. There always seems to be a focus on now and the desired result after separation, however there never seems to be any consideration of the in between stages, and how people's livelihoods will be affected.
a lot of the iS reasoning seems to be around getting away from Westminster (which I get, I think many of the more sane people south of the border would like to jettison the idiots, Gove and Johnson in particular).
I think what people mean when they say get away from Westminster is not so much to get away from the current crop but more to get away from the fundamentally undemocratic system that the UK has.
A common response to that is to say, 'but millions of people in the whole of the UK are in the same situation' and I'd agree that's true. They'll have to figure that out on their own I'm afraid. Perhaps the breakup of the Union will be enough to do that but I doubt it.
Of course Scotland will be able to make it’s own decisions if independent, but that’s subject to lots more outside pressures you can’t control, the same fallacy of the Brexiteers taking back control in a global world, if you want to play by with others you can’t have everything your own way. If a country as large as the UK is finding this I’m sure a smaller independent country the size of Scotland will have even less clout.
I don't think you'll find many indy suporters on here who don't understand that in order to have an open relationship with other countries you have to give up part of your sovereignty. The clout argument I hear time and time again but I really don't understand it. If you ask the Scottish fishermen how much good the UK's clout is doing them I doubt you'll get a positive answer.
All being part of a big country means is that you have more clout to improve the lot of the average inhabitant. Scotland is very different in terms of geography and population than the rest of the UK so our clout is seldom used to benefit us.
I'm aware of the issues in Catalonia, Baboonz, I worked there and experienced them first hand remember.
If you make the comparison with Scotland. If Nicola organises a referendum against the wishes of London do you think that jailing her and her party members for 15 years would be the best response. Or would it just throw fuel on the nationalist fire.
You talk about a "coup" which isn't really appropriate language for what happened unless you're a fervent Madrid supporter.
Anyhow, as already stated, you're going to need more than vitriol to convince me the Spanish response to an idependant Scotland would be anything significant enough to block EU membership.
In actual fact, independence offers a return to what we already know, ie having close ties to Europe either as a full EU member or as an EFTA member.
Scotland knows where it wants to end up,
I really don't think it does, the border issue is massively complex, EU membership arguably makes it worse. Brexit proper is not yet a month old so the issue hasn't been debated in any depth and the third country, EU single market border double whammy post independence will loom large in any campaign
This is perhaps one of the key issues, that has not been addressed appropriately. Due to the harsh criticism of Brexit by Scotland, you would expect a much more detailed and thought out plan.
Sure, tell us what the EU is going to say when Scotland says, 'We'd like to join you, please?' and we can give you the plan.
If you can't then it's a bit unfair to expect us to be clairvoyant, isn't it?
I really don’t think it does,
Scotland wants to be a small country with close ties to Europe.
What you described are not examples of not knowing what it wants, they are examples of obstacles to getting there.
They aren't to be dismissed but they are problems to be solved on the way to an achievable goal.
Now, can you tell me what England wants?
Due to the harsh criticism of Brexit by Scotland, you would expect a much more detailed and thought out plan.
I linked above to the plan from last time. I would expect a better one this time. A lot of able people put a lot of work into that detailed plan. yes it had holes in it and yes there are imponderables but remember this is only the beginning of the campaign and I will bet my house we see a very detailed well thought thru plan to make our minds up about
I do hope they have a better answer on the money tho. that was the main weakness with the last plan
One issue with all this debate and why I ask were people live is given the huge bias in the press its actually almost impossible for people outside of Scotland to even see glimpses of the positive case - hence the nonsense about there was no plan - there was it just was never seen outside of Scotland. Nor was the level of informed debate that we had up here seen outside of Scotland
Read the nationl. Take a huge pinch of salt with it but consider it not to be neutral but to be the other side of the debate to that you see down south. Check out common weal for another take on it
https://commonweal.scot/
If you make the comparison with Scotland. If Nicola organises a referendum against the wishes of London do you think that jailing her and her party members for 15 years would be the best response. Or would it just throw fuel on the nationalist fire.
In the context of Spain? yes. They organised an illegal referendum and then claimed independence, 15 years seems to little to the damage they did. Hence why the EU told them to go do one. It hasn't even been a century since the last civil war, yet asshats like them are okay to stir up shit like that. I dislike Madrid's economic management as much as the Catalans or more, but two wrongs don't make a right. Tbh, this issue(Catalunya that is) makes my blood boil, and probably should leave it as that.
I'll clarify, I don't think there will be a veto, but I do think the fast track will not be facilitated. If Scotland does it through brute force like Catalunya tried, then there will be resistance from Spain, and maybe even other countries that have similar separated movements. It's not vitrol, its a fact, politicians in Spain have been flip-flopping on this issue.
Now, can you tell me what England wants?
A good kick up the arse? Maybe 'needs' is a better word than 'wants'.
Its about self determination. a slightly different thing. Its about having the ability to do what we want
Ok, I suppose that's the issue I have, will you be able to do what you want post independence? I'm cynical of all politicians, every now and then we have a bit a of jump forward, NHS for example, but generally they all seem to be incapable of moving forward.
Fair point about not wanting to be Billy Big Baws, rUK could do with a bit more humility as well. I'll also accept that the independence movement may not be as arrogant and blinkered as the Brexit movement.
f you ask the Scottish fishermen how much good the UK’s clout is doing them
I don't think fishermen anywhere have particularly coherent opinions, most seem to want to catch as much fish as they can until the stocks run out, stop anyone else fishing in 'their' waters and selling where ever they want, real cake and eat it stuff.
Scotland is very different in terms of geography and population than the rest of the UK
Really? Ok the Highlands and Islands are pretty different but seeing as around two thirds of the population is in the central belt which is pretty similar to much of the UK, lowland, urban, I'm not seeing a big difference.
Sure, tell us what the EU is going to say when Scotland says, ‘We’d like to join you, please?’ and we can give you the plan.
If you can’t then it’s a bit unfair to expect us to be clairvoyant, isn’t it?
I'll take a guess, after the posturing they will say: "sure let me see your finances". To which they will show that they have achieved.... taking the following actions...
Tbh, this issue(Catalunya that is) makes my blood boil,
Yeah, every time I think about the people getting the shit kicked out of them and the scumbag cowards who were cheering from the sidelines my blood starts to boil too.
I'm sure you weren't one of the ones celebrating scenes like these though?
Really? Ok the Highlands and Islands are pretty different but seeing as around two thirds of the population is in the central belt which is pretty similar to much of the UK, lowland, urban, I’m not seeing a big difference.
Just out of interest, where in Scotland have you lived and where in England have you lived. I've lived in Glasgow and in Surrey and the differences are stark.
Ok, I suppose that’s the issue I have, will you be able to do what you want post independence?
We will be able to try whereas now we cannot even do that. for example we will be able to raise money to invest as all governments do. We will be able to invest in renewables to a much greater extent without having the prohibitive costs of joining these renewables to the national grid
We will be able to rejig our tax and benefits system to make it fit for the 21st century
We will be able to rejoin the biggest multinational co operative system in the world - the EU with all the benefits that brings.
Most importantly we will be able to make democratic decisions by the people of Scotland for the people of Scotland.
Just out of interest, where in Scotland have you lived and where in England have you lived. I’ve lived in Glasgow and in Surrey and the differences are stark
I have lived in Glasgow, Edinburgh, a bit in Fife, Liverpool, London and Birmingham area. I found much more more difference between North and South of England, that between average England and average Scotland. In fact, Glasgow seemed like every other industrial city in the UK.
Bruce, Surrey is hardly representative of the rUK. I've travelled all over the UK and I can't say what I've seen of the central belt is much different to the M62 corridor, West Midlands, South Wales etc.
I would agree the central belt is similar in some ways to the m62 corridor - but the m62 corridor is one end of the english spectrum, the central belt is the opposite end of the Scottish spectrum and even then its far less homogeneous
Bruce, Surrey is hardly representative of the rUK. I’ve travelled all over the UK and I can’t say what I’ve seen of the central belt is much different to the M62 corridor, West Midlands, South Wales etc.
If we're talking about where we've traveled rather than just where we've lived then I have far more extensive experience from all across the UK. I don't really think it counts for much though as I don't believe you really know an area until you've paid tax there.
A fair proportion of the Scottish population live in the central belt. Likewise, a fair proportion of the English population live south of the Watford gap. South of the Watford gap and the Central belt of Glasgow are probably equivalent for Scotland and England. The North of England and the Highlands and Islands are equivalent. if you compare the North of England with the Central belt you will probably find a lot of similarities but also some key differences (look the vote percentage for Brexit as an example).
You have to compare like with like so if you compare the Central Belt and south of the Watford gap and you compare the North of England and the Highlands and Islands you'll find we are completely different countries.
Its about self determination. a slightly different thing. Its about having the ability to do what we want – to be a modern social democracy. Its a positive thing of wanting to movge towards something not away from something
Genuine question. You stated in an earlier post that you also want to be in the EU. Surely then this would compromise your ideal? Self determination you would not be in total control of, we couldn't do what we wanted due to having to adhere to prescribed EU law? Social democracy, yes the SNP lean this way, but in an independent Scotland they may not be in governance, so the leanings of that government would be the political landscape in which we would live/work. You are moving away from Westminster and heading into the unknown, not a ready made utopian country. Just my observations.
I have lived in Glasgow, Edinburgh, a bit in Fife, Liverpool, London and Birmingham area.
And Spain?
Self determination you would not be in total control of, we couldn’t do what we wanted due to having to adhere to prescribed EU law?
I'm not sure how far back you've read but already today I've said that you won't find many indy supporters on here (or possibly anywhere else) who don't understand that in order to be an open country you have to sacrifice some sovereignty.
I've said this at least once today and it's been said by many people many many times in this thread.
Not trying to have a go, it just feels like we have to keep repeating the same points over and over again.
actually nah
tjagain
Full Member
Ok, I suppose that’s the issue I have, will you be able to do what you want post independence?We will be able to try whereas now we cannot even do that. for example we will be able to raise money to invest as all governments do. We will be able to invest in renewables to a much greater extent without having the prohibitive costs of joining these renewables to the national grid
We will be able to rejig our tax and benefits system to make it fit for the 21st century
We will be able to rejoin the biggest multinational co operative system in the world – the EU with all the benefits that brings.
Most importantly we will be able to make democratic decisions by the people of Scotland for the people of Scotland.
You always focus on the positive, bit too much so tbh.
I'll also be able to call the scottish government of the day c***s, without having to direct my ire in 2 directions! 😆
Lotto - as bruce Wee says - and in the EU we get a say. In the UK we do not. an EU directive that went against the interests of the scottish people we could veto and / or could argue against and that argument would be heard. If Westminster passes a law that is against the interests of the Scottish people that is it. We have no say.
Social democracy, yes the SNP lean this way, but in an independent Scotland they may not be in governance,
Long term the SNP will split I am sure and be no more. I would expect 20 years into the future Scotland will a significant realignment of the parties
Remember we elect under PR here
I would expect coalitions mainly and an undisturbed social democratic consensus like Germany - where the Christian democrats while right of centre do not wish to disturb the social democratic norms and do not want to tear up the social democratic consensus
However Scotland votes 70 - 80 % for social democratic parties and has done so since the 50s so i can be pretty sure that the future of Scotland would be broadly social democratic. Remember UKIP and other hard right groupings get almost zero traction. Scottish tories have to attempt to distance themselves from Westminster ones to gain any traction and the great Troy revival took them to 28% of the vote and the polls for the next Holyrood election take that down to 15 - 20%
given all that and given the tendency of PR systems to produce minority governments or coalitions then I am pretty sure a social democratic consensus will remain with some time a centre right party having some power but never a hard right party like the tories since the 70s
seosamh77
You would be able to vote for a centre right party like the German christian democrats because I am sure such a party will arise out of the ashes of the tories and the hunting shootin fishin tendency from the SNP
if thats what you want of course!
🙂
centre right. 😆
And Spain?
That's where I grew up, but as far as I know Spain is not in the UK. Yes I've moved too much, I know.
A fair proportion of the Scottish population live in the central belt. Likewise, a fair proportion of the English population live south of the Watford gap.
Now that's not a direct comparison, around 9 million live in the south east, south of Watford gap as you put it, about a sixth rUK, around 4 million live in the central belt, two thirds.
A good chunk of people living in London don't exactly lie the south east life style either.
Anyway, nice to see the thread heading back towards debate rather than name calling, thank you all, maybe we do have a future together 😉
I certainly hope so.
So you've put yourself firmly in one camp on the Catalan issue, baboonz. And then argue against people in the UK doing the same.
I worked in a French factory for five years where many of the workers were descendants of those who fled over border in 38, including those who were interned in the Camp de Gurs. Flight across the border continued through the Franco years. I have several neighbours of Spanish origin.
When I worked in Barcellon I was in the uncomfortable position of being in a room with five Madrillanos and four Catalans, sometimes you learn things the hard way.
It would be nice if perople could just get along but if you take the piss out of a population for too long they rebel. Westminster has been taking the piss out of Scotland for years. I understand Scottish nationalism as I understand the Catalans. It would be nice if the Madrid and Westminster stopped the provocation and listened, but they don't. There are many parallels and it would be great if the nationalists didn't fell the need for independance but Madrid and London seem intent on fueling the nationalist fires.
Now that’s not a direct comparison,
True, but when you've got 5 million living in one country and 55 million living in another getting exact comparisons is always going to be difficult.
Saying that, when you've got a country with a population of 5 million and one with a population of 55 million an easy Union was never really on the cards.
Bruce that's not the point I was making, the central belt is fairly representative of Scotland, which as we have established is fairly similar to parts of the run. The South East of England is a much smaller proportion of rUk. Point being the central belt is pretty to similar to average rUk, the South East is more of an outlier in the same way the Highlands are in Scotland.
Bottom line is geographically and demographically Scotland and rUk are pretty similar.
I don't think paying tax somewhere is any indication of how well someone does or doesn't know a region.