Scotland Indyref 2

muddydwarf - Member
more fear mongering. England would vote for the union

You reckon?
I was out for a meal with friends last night, this subject came up. Not one person around that table wanted to continue a Union with Scotland.

conclusive...

So why are you all arguing so fiercely for it. What's the point in the union then?

I'm not. I want an end to it.

fair dos. Has there been any polls done on how the english would vote?

no one is more anti the scots being in the union than Muddy it borders on hatred - though its not in anyway racist that I have seen- I think he is pretty open about this or was last thread.

When i ask folk they shrug disinterestedly and say its up to the scots what they do.

Only poll i saw said that the majority thought the breakup of the union was more likely now [ brexit than before

As the english cannot kick scotland out i would doubt there is a survey asking but i dont know for certain

Not that I'm aware of. I can only go from personal experience, but the only people I personally know who are strongly pro Union are Scottish. The rest vary from being strongly anti Union to not giving a toss about it.

Does he hate us scots more than wing mirrors? 😆

😆

FFS dont provoke him

Junkyard - lazarus
When i ask folk they shrug disinterestedly and say its up to the scots what they do.

tbh this is the impression I get, happy enough as is, but happy to let scotland have it's own discussion this time. Whether that happens or not is a different story, but seems to ring true.

Hatred?
If you want to think that, I don't particularly care.
My view is that the dissolution of the Union is inevitable, so why waste time & effort on trying to keep a population in a Union they nor we appear to want?
I'd rather we concentrate our efforts on fighting the idiocy of the leave voters TBH.

Muddy
I wouldn't have you down as a hater at all

Exasperated maybe

Exasperated? I can go with that.
I just see this whole subject as a waste of time & effort. Any benefits of Union with Scotland are rapidly being eroded by the negative aspects of the argument in my view, I just don't see what the long term benefits are in keeping it going.

Not one person around that table wanted to continue a Union with Scotland.

Yet there isn't much in the way of a campaign for an independent England. Part of the problem for me is that for far too many people England = Uk and therefore the notion of England having to leave the UK doesn't make sense. This results in the absurd yet very common suggestion that England should be allowed to vote on Scottish independence but not many shouting for the very obvious solution. It should have been very clear after the Brexit vote that the Union was divided very clearly over the issue and that for one party to get their way they would have to overrule the other taking advantage of the larger population. Why at this point there wasn't a campaign for England to go it alone and leave the UK and EU comes down to arrogance in my opinion.

Guess
That's a very healthy attitude
Listen to everyone, believe and trust no one

I occupy an odd position I suppose, I want us to remain in the EU as I can see how the benefits outweigh the negatives; but the reverse is true for the Union with Scotland.
I never cared much at all, but the last few yrs have brought me to the conclusion that enough people in Scotland hate being in that Union that we (rUK) can never square the circle and keep everyone happy enough to continue. To that end, I say let's just end it & move on.

As for rUK, that's a conversation England,Wales & NI can have once the Scottish question is dispensed with. I have no great feelings either way on that one other than suspecting Wales would suffer more than England.

My view is that the dissolution of the Union is inevitable, so why waste time & effort on trying to keep a population in a Union they nor we appear to want?

Scotland quite clearly voted in favour of the union a couple of years ago?? That was while being told it was a once in a lifetime opportunity, seems odd to suggest Scotland doesn't appear to want the union.

There has been a huge change in the UK since the Scottish vote on Independence, so its quite understandable that the question is asked again, and that the result may well be very different next time.
I haven't discovered any great longing for continuing the Union amongst family,friends & colleagues although I quite accept that this may well not be representative of rUK as a whole.

I may be wrong but I believe that most people who voted remain felt exhausted by the whole process last time. They have no enthusiasm for going through what was a bruising and devisive experience again, especially so soon. I have only spoken to one person who says they would change their vote. The yes campaign was much more vigorous and effective than the remain last time and they lost resoundedly. I would not be surprised by a much more vigorous remain campaign should there be another referendum, with an even larger win for the status quo.

Every no voter i know bar one has changed their mind even folk who campaigned for no last time

The campaign imo was not nearly as divisive as the unionists and English press would have you believe

tjagain:

Every no voter i know bar one has changed their mind even folk who campaigned for no last time

Well I've only asked about a dozen people, so not much of a sample

The campaign imo was not nearly as divisive as the unionists and English press would have you believe

Some good visual evidence would be to look at the attendance of the SNP, Labour, and Tory conferences in Scotland. Guess which one had a huge hall packed.

Jeremy Corbyn fills halls south of the border, filling a room matters not

My pouint was realy in answer to someone who was saying Scotland does not attract immigrants - when if you include people like me in a wider definition of migrants then its not true.

The question is why does Oldham attract more immigrants than Scotland, you decided that Edinburgh=Scotland and based your answer on generalisations associated with that city.

You have also failed to state how Scotland is currently discriminated against in immigration policy and what changes would be made by a iS Government to make Scotland more attractive than Oldham

The other difference apart from the fact that the right wing get under 25% of the vote here is that Scotland is outward looking and internationalist in its viewpoint.

Is Scotland going to 'open its borders more or not?

I'm not. I want an end to it.

Scotland quite clearly voted in favour of the union a couple of years ago?? That was while being told it was a once in a lifetime opportunity, seems odd to suggest Scotland doesn't appear to want the union.

I think we need a new metric for what constitutes a clear result in a referendum.

It seems to be accepted that 48-52 is close. Not close enough to make the government pause in its blind pursuit of a hard brexit but close none the less.

45-55 was apparently a resounding victory, enough to put the issue to bed for a generation.

38-62 was also a clear result but not clear enough to give the British Government any pause when it came to saying no to any special status for Scotland.

If the independence referendum had gone the way the polling at the start of the campaign suggested which was 30-70 presumably this would have been so resounding that Scotland could have simply ceased to exist as an entity.

I'm not sure what you would call the result of the Norwegian independence referendum which went 0.05-99.95 (I'm not kidding, that was the result) should be called.

45-55 was not a clear victory for No. It was a very very close result.

I do love the fact that people get upset that Salmond said 'once in a generation' but don't seem to mind 'the only way to guarantee Scotland's place in the EU is to vote No.'

I love the fact that folk who spent an entire campaign saying what a duplicitous shit he was and how he could not be trusted hang on that one comment of the man they call a liar.

Its hypocritical to use only this comment of his as a truth and say everything else was BS.

To be consistent they need to say that was BS like everything else he said

IMHO he merely said it get the vote out and its a bit pointless to use it ad nauseum though I can see why they do.

"In my opinion, and it is just my opinion, this is a once in a generation opportunity for Scotland."

Its also disingenuous to say that they Brexit is not a seismic shift
Its also hilarious to say they cannot vote as they dont know what they will be voting for whilst not saying that about Brexit.

Very few principles on display here.

I love the fact that folk who spent an entire campaign saying what a duplicitous shit he was and how he could not be trusted hang on that one comment of the man they call a liar.

Eh? Nicola said it as well, repeatedly!

it is also disingenuous to Say Brexit is not a seismic shift

It was a known risk prior to indyref, in fact Rab went so far as to specifically warn of it as a consequence of voting No, so how can it be a seismic shift?

source Ninfan? 'cos I don't remember her saying it once

Gauss - thats a real shame if it caused a sour atmosphere at work. I didn't see any of that. What I did see a lot of was people who never voted or who never engaged in politics at all having mature and measured discussions over it

My parents were lib dem activists and actively campaigned for no. One day during the campaign my mum was walking to the spot where they were going to set up a leafleting stand and got talking to a chap who looked also to be going campaigning. they discovered they were on opposite sides and continued their chat and then separated wishing each other luck. that was much more my experience of the debate rather than divisiveness but then perhaps I live in a genteel middle class bubble? However my workplace is mostly working class women who are not politically engaged at all and although there were people for both sides on it I never saw any rancor amongst them despite a lot of debate.

I love the fact that folk who spent an entire campaign saying what a duplicitous shit he was and how he could not be trusted hang on that one comment of the man they call a liar.

I'm not sure why your surprised. It's quite a catchy strap line. I imagine it probably cost a few quid in focus groups.

that was much more my experience of the debate rather than divisiveness but then perhaps I live in a genteel middle class bubble?

I know of a few instances where friendships ended during the referendum. Honestly it had more to do with the more fervent behaviour exhibited by some.

I guess that's only partly due to political beliefs, and partly due to never shutting the **** up about it.

Sorry about that slight diversion into "what counts as an immigrant" territory last night. I was only suggesting that, in order to provide a more acceptable answer to big_n_daft, we could ask the folk who have chosen to move to Scotland rather than Oldham. I'd still genuinely love to hear any other theories.

we could ask the folk who have chosen to move to Scotland rather than Oldham

I met this lovely women who furnished me with a lot of cake and she happened to live in Dundee.

Possibly more usefully in this context, she came to Scotland as a plant scientist. Big business in Dundee!

Actually, whilst I'm thinking about it.

I know maybe 7-8 people that have moved to Dundee to work at Ninewells. From both rUK and continental Europe.

On the science front, pretty much global, Italy, Sweden, Australia, Spain, Malaysia, Portugal, China. Stacks of others I'd guess as science is like that.

In comparison to those I knew that migrated to the UK in England. Low skilled work was the primary draw, that and not being shot dead in Mogadishu. Eastern Europe and Russia and lots of Somalis and West Africans (English speaking countries generally)

Somalis aside, almost always economic migrants. The difference between the two will have an awful lot to do with moving in different circles on my part.

[quote=piemonster ]Actually, whilst I'm thinking about it.
I know maybe 7-8 people that have moved to Dundee to work at Ninewells. From both rUK and continental Europe.
On the science front, pretty much global, Italy, Sweden, Australia, Spain, Malaysia, Portugal, China. Stacks of others I'd guess as science is like that.
In comparison to those I knew that migrated to the UK in England. Low skilled work was the primary draw, that and not being shot dead in Mogadishu. Eastern Europe and Russia and lots of Somalis and West Africans (English speaking countries generally)
Somalis aside, almost always economic migrants. The difference between the two will have an awful lot to do with moving in different circles on my part.
But BnDs question remains - why are so few Somalians and West Africans choosing Oldham rather than Scotland? If you're used to dodging bullets then I cant imagine a few raindrops is going to put you off.

But BnDs question remains - why are so few Somalians and West Africans choosing Oldham rather than Scotland? If you're used to dodging bullets then I cant imagine a few raindrops is going to put you off.

I wouldn't dismiss raindrops so quickly. Weather was mentioned.

It might be something to do with the routes to employment? There are clear recruitment channels for Eastern European immigrants into industry which I was in. Same with Africa but less so. Outside of agriculture in Scotland (where the framework for recruiting from Eastern Europe is as far a short I can tell well established) if the channels don't exist then perhaps that inhibits migration.

I wouldn't blame that on governmental policy, darn scarf if was private enterprise creating those routes in.

And, from what I was told. The Somalis went to Leicester iirc (happy to be corrected, but fuzzy the town in question) a community developed and gained a reputation as a place with plenty of Somalis with those in Somalia.

So that's where you went if you migrated to the UK.

The immigration question is an interesting one. From what I understand immigration originally tended to start in the big port cities london, liverpool, bristol ( but for some reason I don't know not Glasgow to the same extent - maybe the trade into Glasgow had already fallen away before the immigration started)

As immigrants settled in the country they tend to move from the city centre to the suburbs, into smaller towns and to move north.

some area had specific drivers for immigration - Oldham area for example had a large immigrant community to work in the textile mills - mainly of asian sub continent descent. this is the situation many years ago. successive waves of immigrants went to places they had heard of and where there was already a community they could join. So a town with an immigrant community tends to attract more immigrants from the same community.

Current immigration is less dependent on the sea trade so is less likely to concentrate in the port towns but the effect of immigrants wanting to join a community still attracts them to these areas

When I lived in manchester there was a classic example of this tendency for immigrant communities as they became more settled to move into the suburbs. As you went up cheetham hill road from the city centre you went firstly thu afro carribean communities ( 60s / 70s arrivals) then as you got further out polish ( 40s /50s) then Jewish ( 20s / 30s)

Nowadays again you have particular drivers for immigration in some areas like crop picking in norfolk.

Some of these waves off immigration bypassed scotand entirely - for example the afro carribean community hardly exists here. Many of them came over to do specifc jobs in the post war years and perhaps Scotland didn't recruit for that? I don't know

there is not a huge amount of crop picking work in Scotland so that driver for immigration simply does not exist as it does in Norfolk

Edinburgh has a very big and strong Italian community. The thought is the driver for this was the fact there was a large POW camp for Italians near Edinburgh and many of them never went home - thus you had the core of an immigrant community here so more came to join it. We have almost all our fish and chip shops run by folk of Italian descent. One shop proudly proclaims " Traditional Italian fish and chips" which always makes me laugh

The most recent wave off immigrants from eastern europe seem to have different drivers to where they go. My impression is we have a large amount of eastern Europe immigrants compared to other areas of the UK here in Scotland but its only an impression - I do not know. Again IIRC during the war there was a polish air squadren based near Edinburgh so Edinburgh was " on the map" for many Poles

Since I have been in Edinburgh ( 20 years) there certainly seems to be a lot more people of asian sub continent descent here than there was - but still almost no afro Caribbean.

Lots of east and west europeans as well.

So it would appear to be multifactorial, immigrants tend to go to places that already have immigrant communities, some areas have activly recuited immigrants over the years, some areas have been settled by accident almost

I guess its a huge socioeconomic investigation as to why different areas have difernt communities in differing numbers

all this analysis I have done is simply my musings - its not based onmuch more thanthat.

My impression is we have a large amount of eastern Europe immigrants compared to other areas of the UK here in Scotland

From what I've seen your impression is terrible 😛

I think you need to visit Peterborough

AGAin just from what I've seen. Eastern European workers in Scotland are fruit picking seasonal jobs in Tayside. In Northants they've settled in full time permenant jobs with many now starting small businesses* and raising families.

*scrounging off the state obvs**

**not really, genuine small businesses, usually picking an unexicting niche such as roller shutter doors.

And, from what I was told. The Somalis went to Leicester iirc (happy to be corrected, but fuzzy the town in question) a community developed and gained a reputation as a place with plenty of Somalis with those in Somalia.

So that's where you went if you migrated to the UK.

Apart from the ones who settled in Manchester, or other areas

I wouldn't dismiss raindrops so quickly. Weather was mentioned.

The weather in Oldham is worse than most of Scotland, parts of the East Coast of Scotland are virtual deserts in comparison

The weather in Oldham is worse than most of Scotland, parts of the East Coast of Scotland are virtual deserts in comparison

To be fair I wasn't clear in pointing out the comparison was being made with Oxon/Northants.

Further to that. It's not our perception that matters. It's the perception of immigrants, a line that sticks in my head is "all we know is it's cold and dark up there".

Apart from the ones who settled in Manchester, or other areas

I'm sure they did, but as it was clearly labelled as thoroughly anecdotal hardly authoritative

According to the Mirror article Iraqis head to Hull.

WTaF, did they take wrong turn. Poor barstads.

This "once in a generation" business perhaps illustrates a fundamental difference in Scottish thinking of government.

Do we have a ruler, or do we have someone who represents us? We hold it is the latter.

Thus any such statement can only be the personal opinion of the politician making it and we the people see no obligation to be bound by it.

The push for another referendum isn't just something Nicola Sturgeon has dreamt up, but something she is under pressure to do from the independence movement.

The big mistake of the Unionists make is attacking the heads of the independence movement because they are not what is driving the referendum push. Chop that head off and another equally competent one will step in immediately.

They would be better occupied trying to convince us of the actual benefits of the union.

[quote=piemonster ]AGAin just from what I've seen. Eastern European workers in Scotland are fruit picking seasonal jobs in Tayside.
Loads of EE plumbers, electricians, plasterers etc as well as basically taking over from Aussies in the hospitality industries. Even the stupid wee Tesco in Aviemore has a "Polish food" section.

Wot Scotroutes says. Hospitality is a big east european employer in Scotland and IME also high tech industries

Certainly in areas with big attractions for east europeans they maybe have more than Scotland but overall? Not so sure but as I said its just an impression not based on anything but observation

Is it loads? Or some?

The fruit farms around Dundee "appeared" to be almost entirely EE.

My last employer in England was maybe 30-40% with a similar number of African migrants. That site peaked at around 1300 employees.

You can add road workers to the Scottish mix, they're digging up pavements on the commute to work, I think that crew is Russian.

It is TJ, as it is in England.

Eastern European plumbers, farm workers, hotel workers are to be found across the UK. But there's nothing I've seen to suggest the influx is above average in any way in Scotland.

Yeah - I wouldn't say it's "above average", though TJ makes a point about the high number of Italians. I'm guessing that similar population bubbles exist where other POW camps were located too.