MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
And some people can’t afford to take that hit – how do we make sure they don’t go below the poverty line etc?
The same people who can't afford to take a hit on Brexit, and I'm sure some of them voted for it. If there's one thing the Scottish government is fairly decent at, it's supporting those in that position, to be fair.
I really don’t give a flying **** about details now, we’re not North Korea ffs, we’ll be fine, even if it costs in the short term I believe we’d be better off in the long term. Being controlled by a bunch of millionaires 300 miles away isn’t really working any more.
We'll be fine. That's not quite enough for me with 400 employees with mortgages, savings, pensions and families. I admire your bullishness and no we are not North Korea but if we're going to vote for a fundamental, irreversible change predicated on unfounded promises then I'd like a bit of detail. This, in my opinion, is why Brexit is a shambles as frankly nobody knew what they were actually voting for other than 'change'.
The grass is always greener, ,mainly due to it being irrigated with Bulls....
You're in a different position from me, I understand your concerns and won't argue or disagree, I'm merely pointing out my view on it.
It's uncertainty and chaos either way but in one scenario, it's presided over by obviously flawed but fairly sensible politicians (of all parties )at Holyrood or , seemingly, unhinged maniacs ( of the two main parties) at Westminster.
I know which of these two choices i'd make.
NZ col - there is plenty of detail out there the problem is a lot of it has to be surmise. for example how hardball England behaves leads to different issues.
But check SNP site for detailed proposals. A lot of work done on currency and finances for example
Good discussion regarding Scottish independence on LBC James O’Brien at the moment
Yeah I've read it all TJ, it's not actually been independently verified as possible though. My Tax guys have a long list of questions they submitted which remain unanswered as by the admission, they can't be right now. The fundamental question of HOW scotland would become an independent country IN the EU is absent though. And that's sort of the Keystone to the whole thing.
It’s uncertainty and chaos either way but in one scenario, it’s presided over by obviously flawed but fairly sensible politicians (of all parties )at Holyrood or , seemingly, unhinged maniacs ( of the two main parties) at Westminster.
It does cause quite a few envious glances north, from south of the border, that you at least have the potential an ejector seat from the complete madhouse that this country has become.
If I was Scottish the voting out would have been a no brainer las time around. After the insanity of the last few years...
Then I read and yesterdays interview with Nichola Sturgeon in yesterdays Guardian advising less unhinged English people to move to Scotland, and thinking... 'Hmmmmm.... tandoori munchie boxes....'
I was no before. I'd be yes now if the snp had some firm guarantees on what the future would look like, and those guarantees made independence viable.
But check SNP site for detailed proposals. A lot of work done on currency and finances for example
They need far more than a proposal. There's no point in complaining about people voting for brexit based on 'pie in the sky' thinking, then going down the same route for scottish independence. Id want to see a guarantee of acceptance to the eu as a bare minimum for example.
Find it astonishing that the same folks who complain about the lack of a plan for brexit appear to be prepared to wing it with independence...the hypocrisy is astounding.
Id want to see a guarantee of acceptance to the eu as a bare minimum for example.
legally impossible. the EU cannot negotiate with a part of a member country. No competence. However its as clear as it can be that scotland would be welcomed back / to continue
‘Hmmmmm…. tandoori munchie boxes….’
They're a Scottish Government initiative to reduce NHS costs by having you die at fifty of heart disease.
Clever, right?
I was a no before, I'd be a yes now as we are clearly two very different countries who want to go in different directions, why should one hold the other back?
Edit- Sorry Wales, you voted to leave and NI can come with us 🙂
if the snp had some firm guarantees on what the future would look like, and those guarantees made independence viable.
There's no guarantee that the SNP would be in power post-Indy, but then that's the beauty of a democracy.
There’s no guarantee that the SNP would be in power post-Indy, but then that’s the beauty of a democracy.
This pickles the heads of my unionist SNP hating colleagues. The only way to get rid of the SNP is to vote yes. 🙂
Id want to see a guarantee of acceptance to the eu as a bare minimum for example.
I understand and sympathise with this conundrum. The EU cannot take a stance while Scotland is in the UK. However, acceptance would be simpler if we didn't leave as part of the UK. There has been talk of a constitutional "holding area" for Scotland while we're out but not quite out, but who knows?
owever its as clear as it can be that scotland would be welcomed back / to continue
But what's the process for 'being accepted back' as I understand it it's convoluted and requires ALL the other EU states to vote for it. Which then brings Catalonia careering out of Spain so Spain would likely say no etc etc. Therein lies the conundrum. Call me a control freak but when i step off a ledge i like to know whats below me.
Spain have said theyve got no problem with it
Catalonia indie & scotland indie are different in many ways, ie, Spain isnt pulling the catalans out of the EU against their wishes
Catalonia / spain is no longer an issue. Actual process depends on where we are when the vote happens - a it must do
tjagain
Member
Id want to see a guarantee of acceptance to the eu as a bare minimum for example.legally impossible. the EU cannot negotiate with a part of a member country.
That becomes much easier after brexit.
Which to be honest, could well be the defining factor in how this goes. If brexit happens, you'd imagine IS campaigning goes into overdrive.
If it doesn't, you'd imagine not alot will happen all that quickly, cause the premise of the SNP's stance on material change dissappears.
Ultimately, we just need to wait until this october deadline passes as Boris has seemingly set that up as a do or die moment.
You'd imagine if that deadline passes and no brexit then surely, brexit must be dead.
I was also no before but now I'm sitting on the fence. The main thing holding me back from being fully pro-independent is the likelihood of a future Labour administration. Every UK Labour Government since WW2 has put the country in recession as they are inept with the country's finances. We're then left with harsh Tory policies to get the country back out of recession (which possibly has something to do with why they are generally hated by so many).
On a UK level, a recession is hard enough to cope with, but with a smaller Scottish economy, the ability to pull out of a recession will be even more difficult and painful.
And an independent Scotland wouldn't be measured as being in recession ? We don't exactly have what would be described as a booming economy (I just checked with my economists before i typed that bit given my Spain faux pas above !)
I'm utterly on the fence frankly, I can see both sides and am not happy with the UK direction but that in itself does not comfort me that independence would be less bad. There's so little concrete detail of fact, all we have is emotive drive to do it. Which is nice, but I'd like to know what the terms of this deal would be.
So what's the tories excuse this time? There's been no recession for the entire time they've been in power recently.
The 2007/09 dip was exactly that, just a dip, it wasn't the tories that sorted that, that was a global issue. And time cameron had came along Brown had done all the donkey work there.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/281734/gdp-growth-in-the-united-kingdom-uk/
Plus how do you factor in the the early 80s recession and the early 90s recession. Tories had been in power for 1 year and 11 years respectively there.
"amatuer
I was also no before but now I’m sitting on the fence. The main thing holding me back from being fully pro-independent is the likelihood of a future Labour administration. Every UK Labour Government since WW2 has put the country in recession as they are inept with the country’s finances"
Seen this?
“rightwing, kamikaze unionist faction” is my phrase of the day:
Scottish Labour don't like policy being handed down from London.
I guess they don't do irony either.
It would be funny if it wasn't so tragic scotroutes
I had hopes for Leonard as scottish leader but he is still making exactly the same mistakes as the last 3 labour leaders in Scotland. He has forgotten the SNP are not the enemy - the tories are.
today just gets better & better for Sturgeon
https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/4656461/ruth-davidson-quit-scottish-tory-leader-boris-johnson/
We don’t exactly have what would be described as a booming economy
better than rUK and restricted by Westminster.
The SNP are really trying to dampen expectations.
The problem with having an exit poll saying 55 seats is that if they end up with less than 45 now it's going to seem like a loss.
So TJ,
Fancy me as a neighbour?
🙂
I think we'll get on in real life.
*searches for jobs in Scotland*
not really seeing that at all, just waiting on results coming in, bit silly to start celebrating before that happens.
predicting Rutherglen and Hamilton west to go from labour to SNP. It was first out last time, about 1.15ish.
The SNP are really trying to dampen expectations.
The problem with having an exit poll saying 55 seats is that if they end up with less than 45 now it’s going to seem like a loss.
TBF, no one wants more than 49 .
Where's nice to live in Scotland? ;-0
<mod>
A gentle preemptive warning, please keep this on topic. If you have us playing forum Whack-a-mole across multiple threads it won’t end well.
</mod>
No talking about England. Got it!
Where’s nice to live in Scotland?
Nowhere. It's all shit. It rains all the time and there are man-eating midges.
Not sure where I'd like to live in Scotland tbh. Glasgow's busy and messy, Edinburgh's nice but the biking's rubbish, and everywhere else is too far from an airport for me to travel for work, I think. Maybe Stirling but the local biking doesn't look great.
I think this could be the last election where we see a Scottish leader of a major (ie, UK wide) party.
There is simply no seat in Scotland safe enough for an MP to campaign from. I'm not sure what happens if a party gets the majority of seats but its party leader loses their seat.
Do we have laws in the UK like they do in Spain for unauthorised referendums? 😉
5000 majority for the SNP in Rutherglen and Hamilton West.
Scotland to extend border to Lancaster. England can have the rest.
molgrips
Subscriber
Not sure where I’d like to live in Scotland tbh. Glasgow’s busy and messy, Edinburgh’s nice but the biking’s rubbish, and everywhere else is too far from an airport for me to travel for work, I think. Maybe Stirling but the local biking doesn’t look great.
That’s a lot of bollocks for one relatively short post
🤫 let him think that.
He can stay and suffer in Boris racist brexit land
Glasgow points weren't far off the mark to be fair.
Rest couldn't be more wrong.
What many people don't realise is the SNP should have won every seat in Scotland.
But there was a dire threat from the former Scots Tory leader Ruth Davidson that horrors would befall us if we gained 50 or more seats.
So we cowardly settled for 48.
(I won't post the pic - it's too horrible 🙂 )
What have you been smoking Molly? 🙈😂
For anyone thinking about moving to Scotland. I came up from England in 2010 and never want to leave.
I was in Sheffield before and the Highlands crap all over the Peak in just about every respect. I miss the Gritstone edges being close to hand, but that’s it.
MrsIHN and I had a (very) brief "let's move to Scotland" conversation last night. Thing is, if working out a separation agreement with the EU was tricky after 40 years of entanglement, WTF is it going to be like doing similar for Scotland, given it's nearer 400...
For anyone thinking about moving to Scotland. I came up from England in 2010 and never want to leave.
I was in Sheffield before and the Highlands crap all over the Peak in just about every respect. I miss the Gritstone edges being close to hand, but that’s it.
This is me. Work is south of england but fortunately comes with a house so we are buying our highland house in the next few months and should be calling it 'home' by easter. So I have no useful contribution to make! We've given ourselves 18 months absolute max to get new jobs (and new careers) and move up full time. So if the rest of you could **** off and stay south of the boarder until we've sorted a couple of jobs I'd be much obliged.
Re indyref, if I'd had a vote last time around I think I'd have voted no. Now, it would be yes.
So I have no useful contribution to make!
I typed......'So I have no useful contribution to make' - is this some mod meddling?
ahhhh - you can't type 'i n before the lock' - I guess because it is/was a standard phrase on threads about to be closed.
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The vote share in Scotland is interesting, the big question is what do labour do now, they are going to have to have a serious debate between themselves on how they move forward.
A move away from the uk party seems obvious, and they are going to seriously have to consider their position the constitutional question.
Independence is still a battle that has to be won, last night settled nothing. More of the same looking at the vote share tbh, but a change from labour though could change everything.
Where they fall on these points going forward though is up for debate I guess and far from certain.
75% voted for pro-EU parties (I think we can tentatively call Labour pro-EU given they wanted a 2nd referendum). I believe that's the strongest pro-EU vote so far.
Just listening to the Radio Scotland phone in. They seem to be struggling to find any Unionists.
Ian Murray was scathing regarding Corbyn and the party leadership during his winners speech this morning. While he seems to recognise that Labour have the wrong position on many things, I still doubt he'll ever accept that Labour in iScotland could be a force.
I'm looking forward to seeing how the Tories spin their message all through the election in Scotland. ie, 'Stop Indyref2'. Clearly the voters don't want to stop indyref2.
My guess is they will just repeatedly say, 'We never said anything about indyref2 during the campaign.'
Kettles on lads. If you leave the house now you can be over the border in time for dinner.
<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">My guess is they will just repeatedly say, ‘We never said anything about indyref2</span>
TBF they need only point out that the SNP (a) completely played down independence, during the campaign and (b) asked for folk to "lend them their votes" against Brexit.
Give SNP the referendum I say.
Then see the surprise faces later on.
Surely the chance of a 2nd independence referendum just reduced significantly. I cannot see BJ agreeing to one and the SNP have no hold over the Conservative Party to force one.
Should there be a 2nd ref (or is it 3rd?)it is still unclear what the outcome would be. The last referendum was extremely divisive and unpleasant, there are a lot of people who do not want to go through all that again so soon.
Give SNP the referendum I say.
Then see the surprise faces later on.
Scotland’s best chance of voting for independence (gut feeling), would probably be to give the whole of the UK a vote.
I would hold off rushing up here just yet.
I believe this new Tory majority are going to give the SNP and Scotland a proper kicking(financially and policy wise) over the next few years,put these wee upstarts in their place.
How bloody dare they challenge the master race. Frikin dark times ahead.
I would hold off rushing up here just yet.
Very much this.
Corbyn has royally humped Scotland.
Dominic is a vengeful God.
fasthaggis
Member
I would hold off rushing up here just yet.
I believe this new Tory majority are going to give the SNP and Scotland a proper kicking(financially and policy wise) over the next few years,put these wee upstarts in their place.
How bloody dare they challenge the master race. Frikin dark times ahead.
Everyone is going to get a kicking.
The English are about to get a lesson they'll not forget in a hurry as well I'd suggest.
The Tories, unhinged, for 5 years... it's gonny be fun...
Where's this idea that the Scotches need to ask permission to leave the UK?
CorbynLabour has royally humped Scotland
Aye Perchy, it's a desperate state of affairs.
Friday the 13th living up to all its expectations
yourguitarhero
Member
Where’s this idea that the Scotches need to ask permission to leave the UK?
It's kinda the law, despite SNP rhetoric. And it's not like they are going to become militant separatists. So the lawful route it is.. Legally they've basically no chance of forcing it. Politically though, they might, it's really over to the SNP now, let's see if they have any teeth.
yourguitarhero
Where’s this idea that the Scotches need to ask permission to leave the UK?
Indeed. A Sec30 order is an agreement on how a referendum should be conducted, not permission.
seosamh
It’s kinda the law, despite SNP rhetoric
Which law would that be?
Where’s this idea that the Scotches need to ask permission to leave the UK?
Keep up this kind of chat. Does the indy movement wonders
seosamh
It’s kinda the law, despite SNP rhetoric
Which law would that be?
The law of the united kingdom. acts of union 1707, treaty of union, aw that patter, specifically.
Scotland’s best chance of voting for independence (gut feeling), would probably be to give the whole of the UK a vote.
Haha! Honestly a great idea, my boss can’t see Andy Murray without frothing at the mouth. This election has just shown me how out of touch I am with most of England, huge swathes are racist, we’d set you free for sure(can I come join). They used to blame blacks, then Asians and currently polish (broad term for Eastern European’s) once brexit is done they’ll blame Scottish until your gone then the Welsh will get blamed.
Nearly kicked out my Tory 23% swing to Lib Dem.
epicyclo
Indeed. A Sec30 order is an agreement on how a referendum should be conducted, not permission.
The Scottish government can hold referendums until the coos come home, without the section 30, Westminster will just ignore them though, and it's unlikely the Unionist vote would even engage with them.
See the nonsense Catalan votes for a hint of how that'll play out.
I would hold off rushing up here just yet.
What do you think they plan on doing, as I honestly think Nicola Sturgeon is everything you’d wanting an MP.
The milngavie liberals must be greetin in their quinoa this morning.
Good to see ian blackford sailing home, there was talk of tactics between certain parties to get him out, a sign of how well he speaks in Westminster.
seosamh
The law of the united kingdom. acts of union 1707, treaty of union, aw that patter, specifically.
Treaties are dissolvable unilaterally, as the UK govt is about to demonstrate.
It's always been the case that the dominant country in such a relationship makes it "illegal" for the subordinate to get independence, and there's no doubt Scotland's relationship with England is subordinate even though that was not supposed to be the case in the Treaty.
Scots Law under the Treaty of Union is not inferior to English law. Then there's the Claim of Right, not to mention the UN Declaration regarding independence.
It's going to be interesting times for sure. I'm pretty sure we'll see a Sec30 refused, and then this will all end up in the courts.
and then this will all end up in the courts.
It won't. Boris'll have abolished the courts by then.
Glasgow points weren’t far off the mark to be fair.
Actually you don't need to live in a high crime scheme to be within 20 minutes of Glasgow airport.
That said If I was starting from scratch I'd seriously consider the rainfall pattern when deciding where to live.
molgrips
Subscriber
Not sure where I’d like to live in Scotland tbh. Glasgow’s busy and messy, Edinburgh’s nice but the biking’s rubbish, and everywhere else is too far from an airport for me to travel for work, I think. Maybe Stirling but the local biking doesn’t look great.
Ehhhh?
Have you ever been to Edinburgh or Stirling?
epicyclo
Subscriber
seosamhThe law of the united kingdom. acts of union 1707, treaty of union, aw that patter, specifically.
Treaties are dissolvable unilaterally, as the UK govt is about to demonstrate.
It’s always been the case that the dominant country in such a relationship makes it “illegal” for the subordinate to get independence, and there’s no doubt Scotland’s relationship with England is subordinate even though that was not supposed to be the case in the Treaty.
Scots Law under the Treaty of Union is not inferior to English law. Then there’s the Claim of Right, not to mention the UN Declaration regarding independence.
It’s going to be interesting times for sure. I’m pretty sure we’ll see a Sec30 refused, and then this will all end up in the courts.
A waste of time, be as well joining Sinn Fein and crack on with a bit of abstentionism as well...
That the two Kingdoms of (fn. 1) Scotland and England, shall, upon the first Day of May next ensuing the Date hereof, and for ever after, be united into one Kingdom by the Name of Great-Britain
The treaty wasn't 2 unions deciding to be in partnership, it was the creation of 1 union. Not 2 parliaments agreeing to rule by consensus, both gave supreme authority to westminster.
There is only 1 route to independence, and that's forcing the democratic point through Westminster.
There is only 1 route to independence, and that’s forcing the democratic point through Westminster.
I think if you are going to limit yourself to a single route to independence then you might as well give up now.
This is a game of chess. You're not going to do well if your opponent has a full board and you've decided to only play with a king and a bishop.
I think if this election has proved nothing else it's that Boris Johnson is a competent enough player to absolutely smash Corbyn. Hopefully Sturgeon will play better.
The democratic mandate is a lot stronger a route than tenuous legal arguments trying to dissolve the treaty of union.
I'm not disagreeing. But if the plan is to ask for a Section 30 order and then do absolutely nothing until we get it then we're in for a long wait.