Scotland Indyref 2

scoob67 - Member
Chewk has arisen - puts kettle on.

beinbhan - Member
Chewk is a slavering **** idiot

edit:

Then she should hammer the Scottish people for independence as much as possible.

Though for statistical optimism you really have to admire the Labour person who claimed that Labour did well in Glasgow because their percentage vote share was up on 2015

I heard Dianne Abbott claimed they won 20,000 seats in Scotland.

On the other hand there may actually be some momentum for the tories

Scotland has generally been conservative (little c) and votes only changed after Thatcher (whether she deserved the blame or not is another debate, which could last another 100 pages).

With Labour in disarray and the Conservatives not being as toxic as they once were, it isn't entirely surprising that the Tory vote is up. That it appears, on the face of it, to be Labour votes they are picking up is curious (unless Labour are going to the SNP and SNP voters are going to the Tories).

I've seen reports that first preference votes for the SNP are up 70k on 2012 but not seen the data.

[url= http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15270068.Orange_Order_elected_to_councils_as_Labour_and_Tory_members/ ]With friends like these...[/url]

In other news (or lack of it), I'm tempted to pull a sickie tomorrow and stay home and just add up the popular vote myself. I might even do a BBC and apply a secret algorithm to it.

Religious fanatics getting involved in a fight against independence - we know where that could go.

So now we have a new definition of "win" which means you have to increase your victory to be considered winning. I look forward to transferring this to other things- presumably if the next indyref is 46/54 that'll be a victory for Yes. And next time Scotland play England, if we lose by 3 goals or less that's a win too. OK so that one might be harder to deliver.

The Tories had a good day in the important battle for best loser though and I wouldn't like to take anything away from them there.

[url= http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15270046.Meet_the__extremist__Tories_elected_to_Scots_councils/ ]...and friends like these.[/url]

No vetting in the Tory party or are they just desperate enough to take in anyone?

There's a long standing Tory councillor called [url= http://www.dng24.co.uk/picture-focus-council-election-count-at-dumfries/ ]Graham Bell (link here)[/url] that's been re-elected to his N-W Dumfries seat, needless to say he's a very rich farmer, his father is a very-very rich ex farmer and like father like son they are both horrendously racist, incredibly homophobic and an utter prick of the highest order. Par for the Tory party then

BruceWee - Member

In other news (or lack of it), I'm tempted to pull a sickie tomorrow and stay home and just add up the popular vote myself. I might even do a BBC and apply a secret algorithm to it

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39846268

All parties have wrong-uns unfortunately, the SNP and Labour have had a few idiots as well over the years. Thankfully the majority from all the major parties are just trying to do a decent job as they see fit.

The Neanderthals of the Orange Order are threatening violence.

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Check the date...

We had the Scottish National Liberation Army raising its head around then too (and don't forget the 55 group if you want to dig up history).

****s on both sides. Don't let them define your side of the argument and don't assume that they define the other.

Brilliant, a massive boost to the Yes campaign getting those Orange Farkwits on board the No campaign.

The Neanderthals of the Orange Order are threatening violence.

We'll, at least it's in the right century 😉

Be good to see some different articles? on the vote analysis published by the Beeb. And I'm right in thinking the delay is nothing to do with the MSM but all to do with ES?

Staff conference today so plenty of spare time to mooch about the internet looking for different takes on the results.

Brilliant, a massive boost to the Yes campaign getting those Orange Farkwits on board the No campaign.

You'd think, but I'm not convinced these ******* will be enough to tip the balance.

I mean, people actually voted them in!

Ah well no need to worry about the Orange Order after all.

Looks like they are going to be packing out the churches every Sunday (unless there's a game on). The ministers will no doubt be delighted to teach them about the 11th commandment...

[url= https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4192/34438500561_ffaeb12562_b.jp g" target="_blank">https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4192/34438500561_ffaeb12562_b.jp g"/> [/img][/url]

I suppose a return to sectarianism is more likely since the divisive nature of Brexit, especially as it's morphed into the hardest possible Tory version of brexshit

Divide and rule

@Epic

That twitter account agrees that the BBC is biased. Not in the direction you think it is admittedly. FWIW I don't consider it (BBC) impartial, although l like to see proof before assuming an article has an unfair agenda, and also before believing what its trying to tell me.

The SNP, the onky nationalist party that's not right wing. Somehow, according to its supporters. Le Pen has more left wing policies than Macron (£50bn austerity, labour law reforms, cut civil service by 120,000 ...)

SNP planning meeting:

Brexit - didn't work
'Rainbow' Tories accusations - didn't work, people misunderstood and voted tory.
"rape clause" - seen through, maybe we should have got false offended a few years ago when the legislation was first proposed?
Whats left? - We haven't plumbed the divisive depths of sectarianism yet?

Why don't we accuse the other side of being a bunch of big orangemen while ignoring the pro IRA people we have as SNP politicians?

This can only end well! Run with it!

eat_the_pudding - Member
...Why don't we accuse the other side of being a bunch of big orangemen while ignoring the pro IRA people we have as SNP politicians?..

Can you name the SNP IRA politicians?

Just leave it out of the conversation either end. It's not useful.

Seosamh77 +1

+2

Sturgeon was left with rather a lot of egg on her face today attempting to mis-quote a leaked letter on fisheries post Brexit. How sad for her.

Oh look jambas trying to get a bite! 😆

@ jamba If that's a fact you should be able to empathise with her given your vast experience.

Correct Jamba -( your earlier comment) The SNP is the only nationalist party that I know of that is centrist, social democratic and espouses civic nationalism not blood and soil.
Something those of you that don't live here seem to have trouble understanding.

"It's not where we came from that's important, it's where we're going together."

Bashir Ahmed to the SNP conference.

Something those of you that don't live here seem to have trouble understanding.

I think he understands it, but chooses to ignore it and claim the opposite.

centrist, social democratic

While that is what they badge themselves, it isn't a description I recognise. They are more populist than anything else. They do less that is truly centrist and instead pick from both left and right to try and appeal across the spectrum. Left and right wing policies don't combine to make a centrist party.

civic nationalism not blood and soil

For the party in their current incarnation, yes. For many of their followers, the opposite seems to be the case. If sectarianism is rearing its ugly head again, its because the SNP and the associated movement have sown the seeds of division and hatred.

It's not where we came from that's important, it's where we're going together

I don't recall the IRA having marches through assorted cities of Scotland like the Orange Order does.
Can you name the SNP IRA politicians?

How about Allan Casey, Parliamentary Assistant to SNP MSP Ivan McKee [url=http://] http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15102373.Revealed__picture_of_SNP_candidate_on_pro_IRA_march/ [/url]

Parliamentary Assistant

Ah, a secretary.

And former Council Candidate.

I used him as an example as it shows there are pro-IRA marches in Scotland as well as IRA supporters at higher levels within the SNP.

Then there is also SNP MSP John Mason who prefers the term "Freedom Fighters" rather than "Irish Murderers"

John Mason

An unfortunate surname for one who holds such views....

There are pro republican marches in Scotland, there is an annual one near me in Ayr, but it's outnumbered massively by the other lot, and as Seosamh77 rightly points out, it's not really relevant to the independence discussion in general.

Thankfully, sectarianism is in general on the wane in Scotland, with the odd exception of some of society's less well brought up knuckle draggers, on both sides.

I used him as an example as it shows there are pro-IRA marches in Scotland as well as IRA supporters at higher levels within the SNP.

not encountered any pro IRA marches in my time in Glasgow, I guess they have the idea, but it doens't get any further then the bar of molly malones.

grumpysculler - Member

For many of their followers, the opposite seems to be the case. If sectarianism is rearing its ugly head again, its because the SNP and the associated movement have sown the seeds of division and hatred.

Yet it would appear to be your side that carry out assaults and the recent packages sent to SNP offices. But then claiming that the SNP are sowing division by campaigning for indy and they are the root cause of the actions above shows that you have a rather one-eyed view anyway.

This sectarian stuff is embarrassing, knock it on the head and don't let the shite stirrers win by resorting to tit for tat.

lovewookie - Member
I used him as an example as it shows there are pro-IRA marches in Scotland as well as IRA supporters at higher levels within the SNP.
not encountered any pro IRA marches in my time in Glasgow,

You've not been looking hard enough though, there's not many, far less than orange marches(about 10% or so) but they do exist, they will argue they are republican however, but quite frankly that's bullshit.

Anyhow, republican, orange, we are talking about irrelevant fringe elements, and generally people that haven't a scooby, and enjoy the quasi miltaristic prancing about like bawbags. Best starve them the oxygen of publicity. They'll go away eventually.

I say this as someone that quite enjoys a good RA fest too! 😆 But come on, ye need to understand what it is, it's a piss up and a sing song, nothing more. Utterly irrelevant to politics in scotland.

So the OO have managed a few Councillors, fair enough, there's enough of them that they deserve some representation. We aren't going back to the days of old. Their time has long passed. And any thoughts of their being able to organise a terrorist resistance to an IS are utterly ridiculous, A few will spit the dummy, but they are sheep at best without an orginal thought in their head.

seosamh77 - Member
...So the OO have managed a few Councillors, fair enough, there's enough of them that they deserve some representation...

grumpysculler - Member
centrist, social democratic
While that is what they badge themselves, it isn't a description I recognise. They are more populist than anything else. They do less that is truly centrist and instead pick from both left and right to try and appeal across the spectrum. Left and right wing policies don't combine to make a centrist party...

That's good in my opinion. Parties should be representative and not blindly follow some political ideology writ on stone.

As for division, what division? We're separate countries and we want control of ours. Seems to me a very successful campaign has been run to do this in our southern neighbour...

duckman - Member

Yet it would appear to be your side that carry out assaults and the recent packages sent to SNP offices.

But but but someone threw an egg at Jim Murphy!

Northwind - Member
But but but someone threw an egg at Jim Murphy!

We're separate countries and we want control of ours.

That's a matter of opinion. I don't think we are - it depends how you define a country.

Seems to me a very successful campaign has been run to do this in our southern neighbour...

A state breaking away from international treaties is somewhat different to a devolved region wanting to set up as a state. I don't agree with either.

grumpysculler - Member
We're separate countries and we want control of ours.
That's a matter of opinion. I don't think we are - it depends how you define a country.

Just like the UK does in its definition of itself in the UN.

As a union between 2 countries, England and Scotland, a principality, Wales, and a province, NI.

Scotland is a country and that's not a matter of opinion. We may be a de facto colony, but we are not a region.

After being sceptical about IRA support within the independence movement, what do I see today, but several mentions of Connolly's execution on 12 May 1916 on various independence threads on FB.

Why does Scotland's independence have to be polluted on both sides by Irish grudges? It is bugger all to do with them, and all to do with our democracy.

Bellendery adheres to no political boundaries

Im not sure that Sturgeon has changed much of anything shes said there will a decision on whether to hold one or not after 2018 then?

Makes sense anyway, I imagine that brexishambles will be fully exposed for all to see by then

saying that who knows what our (UKs) political situation will be by the end of the summer...?

Im not sure that Sturgeon has changed much of anything shes said there will a decision on whether to hold one or not after 2018 then?

She's trying to u-turn without u-turning. She's realised that the independence message is getting somewhat toxic, but if she goes off script too much then she'll lose her core support.

However, she's said that the Scottish people must be permitted to decide and that it is the will of the Scottish Parliament to hold a referendum. Yet now her and her cabinet are going to remove that choice for the Scottish people and ignore the will of Parliament? She's backed into a corner. Just another politician that can't be trusted. I suspect her time left isn't all that much more than May's.

She's also objecting to the DUP deal. I don't particularly like it so have some sympathy, but if Sturgeon had played her cards better then she could have had the SNP pulling the Tory strings and in a much better place to dictate Brexit terms. It would be Scotland getting a nice cash bung for things she doesn't care about like education and the NHS. A lot of SNP policies are quite conservative (little 'c') so the match isn't that bad it couldn't be managed. She could have had real power and put Scotland in the driving seat but again she backed herself into a corner.

Grumpy - not at all. After the GE she said she would have a think on the result but the whole " indyref 2 put on back burner" is nothing more than a made up newspaper story.

Sturgeon is in a very strong position in Scotland with wins in all elections for years.; Nothing like May.

I suspect her time left isn't all that much more than May's.

I'm sure May can only dream of having the kind of majority sturgeon commands, indeed she did, she thought she'd get that.

Zombie Maybot is a hollow shell of a PM, tarnishing the UK and her party, only on the job because no other tory wants that shit sandwich
Sturgeons still got plenty of spunk left in her!

I suspect her time left isn't all that much more than May's

What utter hokum.

It would be Scotland getting a nice cash bung for things she doesn't care about like education and the NHS.

This is jamba levels of bollocks 😆

I don't even think Jamba could envision a scenario where Sturgeon propped up a Tory government.

Still as an idea its not completely without merit assuming your willing to abandon all your existing promises and political principles in order to retain power.

Someone like that would fit right in with the current government

grumpysculler - Member

if Sturgeon had played her cards better then she could have had the SNP pulling the Tory strings and in a much better place to dictate Brexit terms.

In which alternative universe?

I don't even think Jamba could envision a scenario where Sturgeon propped up a Tory government.

Perish the thought indeed.

Sturgeon is going nowhere and neither will her calls for Iny Ref 2, as Ruth Davidson says Sturgeon wakes up every morning thinking of how Scotland can be an Independent country.

epicyclo - Member
After being sceptical about IRA support within the independence movement, what do I see today, but several mentions of Connolly's execution on 12 May 1916 on various independence threads on FB.

Why does Scotland's independence have to be polluted on both sides by Irish grudges? It is bugger all to do with them, and all to do with our democracy.

Since you know Scottish history so well, you should probably know why. People feel it is, correctly, part of their identity.

It's a bit like you going on about the clearances, people have a connection to their own generational pasts..

Scotland never has been an "independent" country and it never will be, it's people will always have connections to the outside, both present and historical.

We should embrace that.

, as Ruth Davidson says Sturgeon wakes up every morning thinking of how Scotland can be an Independent country.

Ill bet Ruth thinks about her tory colleagues in westminster & does the same 😉

Scotland never an independent country? really?

tjagain - Member
Scotland never an independent country? really?

Another point on the history(you're unlikey to hear about )what did james connolly have to do with scotland, well he was born in edinburgh, but he also wasn't the only connection, there were strong links to scotland. Peoples lives and history don't just exist within political boundaries.

Apparently they used to use cathkin braes for training purposes. I'd also imagine alot of the activity would have been fund raising and logistics and activity would have been uk wide.

The IRA in Scotland had 2,500 Volunteers that were organised into 5 battalion areas. These are listed below. A full membership roll exists in a private collection. The Scottish Brigade of the Old IRA was formed in 1934 and continued into the 1960s. In 1960 it erected a Celtic Cross in memory of the Scottish Brigade in St. Fintan's Cemetery, Sutton, County Dublin.
FIRST BATTALION
A Company, Maryhill,Glasgow. Drilled in Banba Hall, Maryhill Road.
B Coy, Bridgeton, Glasgow. Drill Hall, Castle Street. Known as the 'Sandhurst' or 'West Point' of the IRA in Scotland.
C Coy, Govan and Kinning Park, 1918-1923. Drilled in Boilermakers Hall, later hall in Queen Street, Govan.
D Coy, 1918-1922. Baillieston, Shettleston, Tollcross and Parkhead.
E Coy 1918-1923. Uddingston, and Mossend.
F Coy. 1918-1923. Clydebank, Dalmuir, Paisley, Duntocher, Barrhead.
G Coy. 1918-1923. Glasgow Central. Paraded in hall in Renfield Street, and Terence MacSiney Hall, Anderston.
H Coy. 1918-1923. Cambuslang, Wellshot, Carmyle and Rutherglen.
I Coy. 1918-1923. Renton, Alexandria, Cardross and Kirkintilloch.
SECOND BATTALION
A Coy. 1919-1923. Motherwell and Craigneuk.
B Coy. 1919-1923. Wishaw and Newmains.
C Coy. 1919-1923. Blantyre and Bothwell.
D Coy. 1919-1922 Coatbridge, Airdrie, Whifflet and Calderbank,
E Coy. 1919-1922. Hamilton, Larkhall, Burnbank and Cadzow.
F Coy. 1920-1922. Bellshill, Mosssend, Holytown, New Stevenston.
G Coy. Cadzow.
H Coy. 1919-1923. Cleland and Carfin.
THIRD BATTTALION
A Coy. 1919-1923. City of Edinburgh, Leith and Portobello.
B Coy. 1919-1922. Broxburn, Philipstown, Winchburgh, Bathgate, Blackburn, Niddrie, Shotts, Uphall, Linlithgow.
C Coy. 1919-1922. Mid and West Calder, Soneyburn and Addiewell.
D Coy. 1919-1923. Falkirk.
E Coy. 1919-1923. Bannockburn, Denny, Bonnybridge, Cowie, Stirlingshire.
FOURTH BATTALION
D Coy. Dundee and district.
Coy (not alotted). Buckhaven, Methilhill, Lochgelly, Cowdenbeath, Lochore, Kinross-shire.
FIFTH BATTALION
B Company. 1920-1923. Greenock, Gourock and Port Glasgow. Paraded in St Mary's Hall and Duncan Street Hall

So aye history exists, no point in denying it*, or thinking your own vision of it is supreme.

*that doesn't mean cheer lead it and continue the propaganda, but we should absolutely try to understand and accept it(peoples experiences will vary, history is very much relative to the ones perception).

seosamh77

Expain it then. I am sure from the little history I know that there were several periods when Scotland was a truely independent and unified country.

There always been cross border relationships. Put it this way should you give up you English heritage and adhere to a scottish only viewpoint? I put the term in inverted commas to emphasise that i didn't mean political boundaries. Diversity isn't just a modern concept.

So by that standard England has never been an independent country either?

So sturgeons speech in Holyrood today shows that she has not shelved the prospect of another independence referendum but the timetable remains the same - one when the brexit terms are known. So much for the newspaper bollox. Only change is she is delaying bringing forward the motion in holyrood to concentrate on making the case for Scotland to remain in the single market and challenging the unionist parties all of whom support this ( unless Davidson has changed her mind) to fight for Scotland to remain in the single market. Not bad politics as she has taken away some of the unionst parties targets.

tjagain - Member
So by that standard England has never been an independent country either?

So that's what the borris bounce means

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/bombshell-scottish-independence-poll-reveals-18829998

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/bombshell-scottish-independence-poll-reveals-18829998/blockquote >

There are a few kicking about no doubt, but that must be the most unflattering photo of Nicola Sturgeon they could get their hands on!

 

I'd rather see polling at least 60% for independence, though I don't know if any 16-17 year old or foreign nationals were included in that polling, both groups tending to support the Yes option.

Neither should we ignore the capability of the Scottish people to shoot themselves in the foot.

Again.

not really a bombshell is it. Nothing to do with Boris though.

From a poll of 1000 people. Not representative at all.

You do realise how polls work?

From a poll of 1000 people. Not representative at all.

Face. Palm.

I agree Colin, needs to be nearer 60%.

I agree, we should have some sort of poll where we just ask everyone.

And as far as I can tell this poll didn't include 16 and 17 year olds or EU nationals.

52/48 - doesn’t that put it in ‘will of the people’ territory then...

😂

I’d rather see polling at least 60%...

I'd vote Yes again, but I think the last 3 years have proved that's a good principle for any referendum that will result in a major change that is going to be difficult to reverse. It's daft to be making such important decisions on simple majorities.

Yes again here too. Brexit, Boris, his predecessors, the last three years are strengthening the case for Indy.

'Don't waste this time', which is exactly what they did.

The bit that's missing for me in all this is the HOW. How would we suddenly become part of the EU after we voted for independence, as I understand it all the other 27 states need to agree on a vote and it takes quite a long time (years, 10 years i saw once?). I'm all for it BUT i'm a details person so would be interested in the detail of the actual implementation of independence. How will currency transfer work and transfer pricing for companies like mine ? I know politicians are working only on the emotional feeling parts to gain support but as we are seeing now the detail is QUITE important.

We got mired in HOW the last time, and then the Brexit campaign completely ignored any experts that questioned 'the how' during that complete shitstorm.

SNP published a whitepaper that detailed the how, and rightly some of it was dissected. Again, no such thing was published for the shitstorm.

There is no question that economically Scotland can be an independant country - and that's quoting Osbourne and Cameron btw, and I'm pretty sure we'd get access to the single market even if it does take time.

I really don't give a flying **** about details now, we're not North Korea ffs, we'll be fine, even if it costs in the short term I believe we'd be better off in the long term. Being controlled by a bunch of millionaires 300 miles away isn't really working any more.

I think Brexit has a lot of lessons for Sexit.
The "it'll be alright" thing doesn't wash. NZCol is right - we need some details and agreements, both on how it'd work with the rest of the UK and Europe. While there is negotiation and posture there, I think a second confirmatory referendum before fully committing is a good thing.

We also need to be aware that there will be costs, and a (hopefully) a certain time to recoup them and get to where we want to be as a country.
And some people can't afford to take that hit - how do we make sure they don't go below the poverty line etc?