Scotland Indyref 2

Apparently the Sturgeon speech included "Antonine wall will be rebuilt and the English will be paying for it"

With that its back to an Indy Ref Yorkshire.

teamhurtmore - Member
Hard Sexshit has a nice ring to it, doesn't it?

We'll have to wear our kilts then. 🙂

Grumpyscollar

So about 99% of the population?

Joe, the case for the union is obvious, Hence the need for 670 pages of nonsense to pretend otherwise.

At least the DO has started to speak some vague sense in the Scottish pound if not the rest that goes with it.

perhaps so, but you're going to have to make it.

Surely you relish the chance to kill off the nationalists?

Trews are acceptable epic 😉

(no Joe,, the only interest is to protect the best interests of Scotland and the UK and that is simple)

Tweeted by Aidan Kerr:
BREAKING: EU says Barossos 2014 words still apply and an independent Scotland would still have to apply for membership.

Oops..

epicyclo
I'm still against derogatory generalisations over here. But as you seem incapable of stopping yourself, please carry on regardless.

If you think I have "triumphant ill will" at the prospect of economic hardship in an iScotland (that will probably be paying my pension) you may have jumped an assumption too far (again).

But don't let that stop you assuming ill will hatred racism and intolerance (or whatever) in anyone who disagrees with you.

shirley it all depends on how the negotiations go

even the SNP wont be able to spin a soft brexit as being a good enough excuse

of course in the case of a hard brexit, it depends on what the EU might offer scotland in terms of accession, again that will be effected by how well the negotiations go and whether fox/davies/johnson/gove/moggy etc can keep a lid on upsetting the european commission

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Whichever sexshit or sexstay
Things will be changing for Scotland so I think this time the people will be more inclined to go for indy

There can only he a Hard Brexshit, Nicola says so. No spinning required. 😉 but dont you dare question the narrative "youse Irrelevants"

It is amazing that the EU doesn't want to simply admit scotland as a member - it is not as if scotland has spent the last 200 years hating a larger neighbour who dug it out of the financial mess that it had got itself into.

And the EU must surely be looking around for another mouth to feed, with the budgetary surplus they will have post brexit. A country running a bigger budget deficit than Greece would be an ideal fit.

Reasons why the result of this referendum might be different:

- The scottish public are surely not going to fall for project fear again, especially when staying in the UK is now just as scary and uncertain.
- The rUK will be so distracted by the brexit cluster* that they won't be as organised or united this time round
- The labour party aren't going to make the same mistake as before which resulted in them wiping themselves out by doing Cameron's dirty work. If people thought Corbyn was lacklustre on brexit wait til they see him on indyref 2
- The UK haven't delivered on any of the promises given following the last referendum
- The brexit cluster* will have become just that by the time this referendum is held
- Due to brexit/trump/farage, nationalistic instincts have been amplified since the last indyref, this will result in more votes for independence.
- Sturgeon is a much more competent, telegenic and trustworthy leader than Salmond. She'll win the votes of people who couldn't stomach Salmond.

I can't actually think of many reasons why it'll be a no vote.

Dazh agreed

I think theres a lot of people in denial about how likely sexshit is

I doubt that, I think there are a lot of worried people and so they should be.

I can't actually think of many reasons why it'll be a no vote.

Pretty much the main one - fear.

I know too many people who are too scared of the consequences to consider it, and would opt for the status quo, even though it's a bit shite.

Pretty much the main one - fear.

Not going to work this time. The status quo of a hard brexit is scary enough. They haven't much to lose. And if Sturgeon can win some assurances from the EU on membership for Scotland, which I'm sure she will, the more scary option will be staying in.

Indeed why would anyone chose devolved power over giving up sovereignty to [s]Frankfurt[/s] Brussels. Brings a new meaning to the idea of a no brainer.

I know too many people who are too scared of the consequences to consider it, and would opt for the status quo, even though it's a bit shite.

the thing is with Brexshit the status quo no longer exists

so its a choice between a huge change and another huge change

as THM says, its a choice between being subservient to patronising politicians in London or Brussles*

* well thats how the SNP will paint it

the minute May gave her insanely hypocritical talk about scottish indy last month anther ref was inevitable, she even alluded to repatriating devolved power, it may have given the Little Englanders a patriotic hard-on, but it ensured another 2 years of division and bickering

its a choice between being subservient to patronising politicians in London or Brussles

Just remind me - on what date did David Cameron ask the EU permission to hold a referendum?

The status quo of a hard brexit is scary enough.

You say that but only 32% of people in the latest study for HSBC were worried about the effects of Brexit.

Aye, Ruth has to face ne'er forget the poll tax and the fact that one female Tory single handedly destroyed Scotland's otherwise healthy and strong manufacturing base in the past.

No really

That's funny I thought it was due to decades of failure to invest in the workforce and equipment. Decades in which the UK turned to making a quick buck via speculation on markets rather than long term investment in industries
Anyway whatever did happen, happened under UK governments over the last 50 years.
Be careful THM what with all this contorting and spinning like a verbal game of "Twister" you'll just end up sneering at yourself

Dazh

Reasons why the result of this referendum might be different:

- The scottish public are surely not going to fall for project fear again, especially when staying in the UK is now just as scary and uncertain.

Sometimes consequences are real. Part of "project fear" was warning about oil prices. Is it still fear when its real? Brexit gave people the same lesson.

- The rUK will be so distracted by the brexit cluster* that they won't be as organised or united this time round

You seem to be thinking you'll be up against the rUK, when the people you have to convince actually live [i]here[/i].

- The labour party aren't going to make the same mistake as before which resulted in them wiping themselves out by doing Cameron's dirty work. If people thought Corbyn was lacklustre on brexit wait til they see him on indyref 2

Funny someone on here excused St Nic from appearing on the same platform as the conservatives during the EU referendum on the basis that she "wasn't signed up to be part of the same campaign". Has that changed now? What if Conservatives and Labour campaign for the same thing independently?

- The UK haven't delivered on any of the promises given following the last referendum

This is just funny. EDIT In Before "prove it". You made the allegation. YOU prove it.

- The brexit cluster* will have become just that by the time this referendum is held

Undecided, but the slogan "Out of EU AND UK" might not have the draw you think.
Also a (regretable in my view) hard Brexit would mean a hard border to the South and a loss of potentially 4x more exports than those to the EU.

- Due to brexit/trump/farage, nationalistic instincts have been amplified since the last indyref, this will result in more votes for independence.

I agree, Nationalisnm does breed Nationalism. But Scotlands Nationalism is sooo different and inclusive and non judgmental and never makes broad generalisations about large groups of people and everything.
Or maybe (and its my hope) people will vote with their heads and not their other parts?

- Sturgeon is a much more competent, telegenic and trustworthy leader than Salmond. She'll win the votes of people who couldn't stomach Salmond.

Have you seen her approval rating recently?

I can't actually think of many reasons why it'll be a no vote.

Your confirmation bias is showing.

it may have given the Little Englanders a patriotic hard-on,

Can't you just summarise the May governments view, and indeed policy, on pretty much everything with that sentence?

Gordi - you have a point, given how disappointing devolution has been - growth, education, health etc - perhaps being ruled by [s]Frankfurt[/s] Brussels makes sense after all! They have a proud track record at helping economically small, geographically peripheral and financially deficit states. With friends like that....

mefty - Member

I don't see WM blocking it, but I also don't see her getting the carte blanche that she is asking for.

I can't see Westminster not blocking it and Government has already pretty much said as much.

They would say that wouldn't they - but when push comes to shove it would give a huge vote boost to the yes side if the unionists play hardball so I don't see it happening.

Daz Indy is now even more of an issue financially

Indy Ref late 2018/2019
UK leaves EU March 2019
Given Indy Ref timing a Yes vote see Scotland Independent around mid 2021 at the very earliers
Assuming Hard Brexit Scotland has left the EU by the time its independent and faces WTO rukes with rUK for the 5-10 (yr) period it takes to join the EU. Even a wildy optimistic timetable is 3 years
With UK outside EU an iS can have no special arrangements with UK if its to be an EU member

Plus on top of all of this the EU (imo) is on fhe brink of a catastrophic failure of the euro and an almightly budget wrangle post Brexit. Being a member is going to look very unappealing

Apart from the real danger of losing, May will not want the distraction of an Indyref as she's dealing with Brexit.

I can't see the UK granting this, although turning it down will be embarrassing.

I'm sure Sturgeon knows it's unlikely to be granted and is just enjoying a bit of knife twisting.

Plus on top of all of this the EU (imo) is on the brink of a catastrophic failure of the euro

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Westminster won't block the Holyrood vote legislation but there will be no Edinburgh Agreement v2

binners do you follow the news 😉 Have you seen whats going in Greece and Italy ?

BTW do you remember 3-4 years ago when I was posting that immigration was a growing issue ? Derided by many here as just another DM reading swivel eyed loon.

This thread needs more people who don't live in Scotland and don't have a clue about us to tell us what we need and what we're like.

@km you can do as you wish. In 2014 we where prepared for you to leave at your choice. What we did is pount oit the gaping flaws in the SNPs arguments & "strategy"

See that scenario above you can do what you want with it but you'll need better answers than last time. It's entirely up to you.

I'm for a second referendum, but if we are going to be independent we need to be totally independent, bugger having the queen as head of state.

All I know is that Cameron and Osborne will be laughing their tits off. Cameron may have lost his job by ****ing up on the EU, but at least he managed to keep Scotland. His title as the worst PM in modern history is about to be beaten at the first opportunity.

km79
a) Why should people who [i]do[/i] live in Scotland try to engage you when you ignore them anyway?
b) Why should someones argument be devalued or ignored because of their nationality?

The leader of the Scottish Conservatives said: “Nicola Sturgeon has today given up acting as First Minister for all of Scotland.

“People have said time and again they do not want to go back to the division of a second referendum.

“Nicola Sturgeon promised the 2014 referendum would be ‘once in a generation’.

“Today she has ignored the majority in Scotland who do not want a referendum and has decided instead to double down on division and uncertainty.

“The First Minister’s proposal offers Scotland the worst of all worlds. Her timetable would force people to vote blind on the biggest political decision a country could face.

“This is utterly irresponsible and has been taken by the First Minister purely for partisan political reasons.

“Both No and Yes voters have been urging her to put this to one side – but because of her own rash decision to use Brexit in a bid to lever support for independence, she has ignored them completely.

“Quite simply, today the First Minister has failed in her job to act in the interests of all of us.”

Her timetable would force people to vote blind on the biggest political decision a country could face.

Is she talking about Sturgeon or May? 😀

eat_the_pudding - Member
km79
a) Why should people who do live in Scotland try to engage you when you ignore them anyway?
b) Why should someones argument be devalued or ignored because of their nationality?

If you haven't got a vote it's a waste of energy to convince you otherwise, and he said people who live in Scotland, not native born Scots.

@jamba

DM reading swivel eyed loon

I am not sure how people would have got the information about which paper you read but the second part of that statement seems fairly accurate, given some of your misapprehensions of Scots and Scotland.

devolved power over giving up sovereignty to Frankfurt Brussels.

It doesn't really matter how many times you type this its still a false equivalence. A really basic logical fallacy.

Its also a slight odd position for someone who was firmly in favour of staying in the EU to take

eat_the_pudding - Member

km79
a) Why should people who do live in Scotland try to engage you when you ignore them anyway?
b) Why should someones argument be devalued or ignored because of their nationality?

a) I'm all for people who live in Scotland to engage regardless of whether they are Yes/No, but if I don't like their manner/attitude then why shouldn't I ignore them.
b) Nationality doesn't come into it, if someone 'don't live in Scotland and don't have a clue about us ' then their assessment of us will be devalued or ignored. Perfectly possible to not live in Scotland and still have a clue, in which case I would happily consider their argument.

Who are we talking about again?

“Today she has ignored the majority in Scotland who do not want to leave the EU and has decided instead to double down on division and uncertainty.

“The Prime Minister’s proposal offers the UK the worst of all worlds. Her timetable effectively gives parliament no vote on one of the biggest political decision a country could face.

“This is utterly irresponsible and has been taken by the Prime Minister purely for partisan political reasons.

“Quite simply, today the Prime Minister has failed in her job to act in the interests of all of us.”

zigzag May really is the queen of hypocrisy !

Says it all 🙂

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This time Sturgeon's political career is definitely over ... she has just thrown her last dice.

Go Scotland go, leave and gain your independence ... be free.

Your leader Sturgeon is guiding you to the promise land.

Go in peace.

Let the past be the past and confine to history.

You are free Scotland.

Go Scotland go ... 😆

I also love day drinking