MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
That QT chap got away with quoting about Victorian 'free trade' when in fact it was 'restricted'. We controlled the Empire and they bought/sold to our rules plus at the time we were at the forefront of industrialisation so consequently had a serious advantage (not for long though).
A genuine question because I don't know the answer; what currency options have other recently-independent countries chosen?
You know you'd think a Party setup to create an independent country would have done that research, weighed up the options and presented it's conclusion as part of a 2 year long Referendum campaign.
TJ the silence is deafening, not a single sentence as to any of those options or any others offered up. You'll fit right in at the SNP.
On the May vs Strugeon popularity the pecking order is Davidson, May, Sturgeon - so both Tories ahead of her. Sturgeon did manage to be more popular than Jeremy Corbyn.
[quote=epicyclo ]Is there a model you use for forecasting the economic strength of a newly independent country?
None of the predictions of doom* have happened for other colonies becoming independent, so was that because the model was wrong?
So exactly what predictions were made for ex colonies and were they based on things changing post independence for countries which were previously successful under British rule (ie not requiring subsidy from Britain)? Not something I know much about - presumably you do as you keep bringing it up?
*that's OK then, I'm sure Scotland wouldn't be one of the few
More Jamby facts.
Coming next "Scotland is not a country." "Despite any international law, the oilfields will be divided up by population size." "We may just annexe Faslane."
Make him stop!
World Happiness Report 2017
1. Norway - Population 5.1M - GDP per capita 1.616
2. Denmark - Population 5.6M - GDP per capita 1.482
3. Iceland - Population 0.3M - GDP per capita 1.481
4. Switzerland - Population 8.4M - GDP per capita 1.565
5. Finland - Population 5.4M - GDP per capita 1.444
Interesting that the top 5 is dominated by smaller European countries. From a quick google search they all run quite low deficits as well, except the times when they are in surplus. No reason at all why an independent Scotland couldn't be up there with them given the time and effort.
[quote=rene59 ]No reason at all why an independent Scotland couldn't be up there with them given the time and effort.
I keep hearing this, without any explanation (or really thought) being given as to how and why that might happen. Why wouldn't it be like Portugal?
May is almost universally hated.
Not that I see (indifference then yes), so I guess like everything it depends where you look. I know a lot of people who hate Sturgeon.
The one person guaranteed to bring out the groans though is Corbyn, who is a complete non-entity.
what I don't get is that if Scotland is such a drain on the UK, why do the MPs and the English audience actually care if Scotland leaves. Its a bit bizarre to have this discussion in England as well. The only thing I can think of is that WM needs what Scotland has for negotiations for leaving the EU.
Why wouldn't it be like Portugal?
Why wouldn't it be like those above? If you were setting up a newly independent government and were looking for proven policy ideas to implement who would you rather look to for guidance?
In my view it's time we all had a vote on ending the UK. Lots of people in England would support that and vote for Scotland to leave if "Scotland is such a drain". Those of us that want a free Yorkshire know that Scotland is a drain on our reet proper Yorkshire life, though England manages to Do a better job. Yorkshire can look after its self in the xenophobic petty nationalist stakes far better than an SNP/Tory. So let's all have a vote, freedom for Holmfirth.
🙂
[quote=rene59 ]Why wouldn't it be like those above? If you were setting up a newly independent government and were looking for proven policy ideas to implement who would you rather look to for guidance?
How about you explain why it would be like those other countries? If it's so easy, why haven't Portugal done it?
What you can do is look at the current economics and remove the part which is directly linked to rUK. Anything else is hand waving and wishful thinking.
[quote=poah ]what I don't get is that if Scotland is such a drain on the UK, why do the MPs and the English audience actually care if Scotland leaves. Its a bit bizarre to have this discussion in England as well. The only thing I can think of is that WM needs what Scotland has for negotiations for leaving the EU.
You know how EU membership is such a drain on the UK (£350 million a week), yet most intelligent people who've thought about it think it beneficial to be a member...
That's all very well Mt but will Holmfirth have a flaky border or a shortcrust one?
How about you explain why it would be like those other countries? If it's so easy, why haven't Portugal done it?
After you explain why it couldn't. Did I say it would be easy?
given the time and effort
No I didn't. I said no reason why we couldn't be up there with them. What are the reasons why you think we couldn't?
[quote=rene59 ]After you explain why it couldn't.
Aha - well you're the one saying "Scotland could be like these countries" - onus appears to be on you! I'm not the one waving my hands and thinking wishfully.
What are the reasons why you think we couldn't?
The same reasons that Portugal isn't.
I'm not the one waving my hands and thinking wishfully.
How condescending.
Well how else would you describe it when you're suggesting Scotland could be like some other country, the only basis for which you've provided so far is that it is a similar size? (and yes, I do know that referendums and elections are won with worse arguments)
...and natural resources, and education/qualified workers, and industry, and infrastructure, and GDP, and outlook (for a large portion anyway). Add in the fact that we as a population are as politically engaged as we have ever been and you have all the necessary ingredients for change in the right direction.
Rubbish away...
[quote=rene59 ]...and natural resources, and education/qualified workers, and industry, and infrastructure, and GDP, and outlook (for a large portion anyway).
You've done lots of research into how those things compare with the countries you'd like to be like? How do they compare with other countries - Portugal for instance?
I've done enough research yes. Close enough to the countries mentioned above. What about you? What has your research led you to conclude about our similarities with Portugal?
It is quite easy to Rubbish away becasue you aren't explaining how this would come about or why it hasn't already & then you are throw out words like 'industry' & infrastructure' without any reasoning as to why these things are in a state to bring about the state of Independent Utopia you so fervently wish for. It's this sort of starry eyed thinking that makes the Independence case lack credibility with the majority of the Scottish population.
Epic. Not really. Economic forecasting verges on politics. There are so many assumptions that the "model" part is almost irrelevant.
People keep seaking about natural rescources but thats a double edged sword for Scotland whose economic fortunes are/would be so closely tied to the price of oil.
Norway took the decision to keep taxes high and pit all its oil revenue into a SWF. That option is not practicable in Scotland as its not realistically possible to raise taxes enough. Switzerland stayed out of two WWs and has a heaviky financial services based economy. Iceland was bankrupt, saved by Norway eytc. Portugal is very poor, much poorer than Scotland. Denmark, maybe a model to copy very high taxes though. Finlnd, hum don't see too many countries trying to emulate them.
[quote=rene59 ]I've done enough research yes.
Let's have it then, such stuff would be quite useful on this thread...
My point was that they are all 'happy' countries. Scored by the perception of their own happiness. Now they may not be the richest countries, they may have much higher taxes and be burdened with the curse of having natural resources, they may not try to position themselves on the world stage as some sort of power, but it doesn't seem to bother them too much does it?
aracer - Memberrene59 » I've done enough research yes.
Let's have it then, such stuff would be quite useful on this thread...
Well the similarities are obvious if you go look for yourself. I really can't believe you would deny this. Seeing as I had a say the last referendum and will have in the next, you think I haven't considered this as much as someone who didn't/doesn't? Given your stance I would be wasting my time posting anything up as you would only rubbish it anyway. I note you decline to share your own.
Jamba - 'Natural resources' does not directly equate to oil and gas
As you can see above, the Nats don't really understand the economic situation, nor do they want to....its largely immaterial. The finer points of how their industries might fair, how their tax policies may affect their people are all mostly irrelevant. Its all about Scotland standing on its own and ridding themselves of their controlling English neighbours.
And yet...if that happened and by chance they managed to become a part of the European Union again, they would effectively be throwing that independence in the sea and relying on the control and governance of a much larger neighbour.
[quote=rene59 ]Well the similarities are obvious if you go look for yourself.
Why don't you elaborate then?
Given your stance I would be wasting my time posting anything up as you would only rubbish it anyway. I note you decline to share your own.
We already established who was making claims with no evidence and hence where the burden of proof lies. My stance is simply that making unsubstantiated claims proves nothing, a problem you could potentially solve by posting detailed evidence of how and why Scotland could become like the countries you admire. I'm simply rubbishing lack of evidence. This sort of unsubstantiated claim has been repeated so often by those in favour of independence when it is really nothing more than wishful thinking.
jambalaya - Member
Epic. Not really. Economic forecasting verges on politics. There are so many assumptions that the "model" part is almost irrelevant...
So there is no model?
So is it safe to say any forecasts of doom (or utopia) are really reflecting a political bias?
aracer - Member
So exactly what predictions were made for ex colonies and were they based on things changing post independence for countries which were previously successful under British rule (ie not requiring subsidy from Britain)?...
Pretty much the same as are being made for Scotland. You can be sure the spending priorities in Scotland will be different after independence.
Subsidy? I think you have missed the point of colonies - they were acquired for their wealth. Many of them had been civilised much longer than the UK.
bingo.epicyclo - Member
So is it safe to say any forecasts of doom (or utopia) are really reflecting a political bias?
if that happened and by chance they managed to become a part of the European Union again, they would effectively be throwing that independence in the sea and relying on the control and governance of a much larger neighbour.
the control and governance within the EU is nowhere close to being controlled by a Tory government out of Westminster and much more in keeping with what I would want if I lived in Scotland.
Getting out of a tory controlled country would be my sole aim as pretty much everything they stand for is the opposite of what I want.
And looking at the tory representation in Scotland would suggest the thinking is similar to mine.
We already established who was making claims with no evidence and hence where the burden of proof lies. My stance is simply that making unsubstantiated claims proves nothing, a problem you could potentially solve by posting detailed evidence of how and why Scotland could become like the countries you admire. I'm simply rubbishing lack of evidence. This sort of unsubstantiated claim has been repeated so often by those in favour of independence when it is really nothing more than wishful thinking.
You are being absolutely ridiculous here, arguing for the sake of arguing. The fact that there are countries of similar size, make up, wealth, economies, resources, industries and people all out there making a success of it and being happy doing so is the evidence. I say there is no reason why we could not join them. You fail to come up with evidence we couldn't. So why don't you post up a list of similar sized, wealthy, resource rich countries with similar types of industries and people as Scotland has who are independent but unhappy and struggling to make their way?
kerley - Memberthe control and governance within the EU is nowhere close to being controlled by a Tory government out of Westminster and much more in keeping with what I would want if I lived in Scotland.
Getting out of a tory controlled country would be my sole aim as pretty much everything they stand for is the opposite of what I want.
And looking at the tory representation in Scotland would suggest the thinking is similar to mine.
I posted this in another thread:
He's (J-C Juncker) that indefensible morally corrupt bent bastard that stole taxes from the EU by letting big business pay peanuts to his own country, whilst promising to do the exact opposite and probably lining his own pockets at the same time.He's a **** snake.
That's what you want for Scotland is it?
And all because the shyster isn't labelled a Tory.
[img] 
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That's what you want for Scotland is it?
And all because the shyster isn't labelled a Tory.
If I was Scottish yes. Again, because the EU influence on me would be nowhere near as bad as the UK tory government.
The fact that there are countries of similar size, make up, wealth, economies, resources, industries and people all out there making a success of it and being happy doing so is the evidence.
So... you haven't actually done any 'research' then? You've selected some countries the size of Scotland which are doing well, and ignored any similar sized countries which aren't doing quite so well & on that basis you think you have provided eniough 'evidence' that an Independent Scotland is sure to succeed. Count me convinced.
You've selected some countries the size of Scotland which are doing well
No, I selected countries of similar size, make up, wealth, economies, resources, industries and people which are doing well (at the very least by their own reckoning).
and ignored any similar sized countries which aren't doing quite so well
I've asked for examples of countries of similar size, make up, wealth, economies, resources, industries and people which aren't doing quite so well (at the very least by their own reckoning). I haven't ignored them, I just don't know any. Do you? Maybe you can share?
imnotverygood - Member
So... you haven't actually done any 'research' then? You've selected some countries the size of Scotland which are doing well, and ignored any similar sized countries which aren't doing quite so well & on that basis you think you have provided eniough 'evidence' that an Independent Scotland is sure to succeed. Count me convinced.
I presume you're still living with your mummy and daddy because when you thought about leaving home, you could come up with no guarantees you would survive.
Or did you think something along the lines of I have these qualifications and resources and other people who have similar have made the leap into the great unknown and are doing ok?
[quote=epicyclo ]Subsidy? I think you have missed the point of colonies - they were acquired for their wealth. Many of them had been civilised much longer than the UK.
I hadn't at all - I was just wondering whether you had. So what you're telling me is that none of the ex colonies which successfully made a go of independence had a deficit like Scotland?
Different spending priorities? So tell me which things you're going to spend less on.
How did you vote on Brexit epicyclo? Sounds pretty much how a Leave would argue. What you are arguing for is the right to leave & ignore making out a credible economic case for it. Sure, you can take a chance if you want freeeeedom but the majority of the Scottish population didn't seem to find that attractive.
Different spending priorities? So tell me which things you're going to spend less on.
Surely you realise trivial things like balancing the books don't worry the SNP.
They are going to spend more on health, education, transport as they are going to scrap trident and use the submarine hulls as floating islands on which to grow money trees.
I presume you're still living with your mummy and daddy because when you thought about leaving home, you could come up with no guarantees you would survive
The smart choice is indeed to stay at home with mummy and daddy until you have an income that can at least cover your outgoings. Otherwise its like taking a wonga loan to pay your deposit for a mortgage you are going to cover with your paper round
The smart choice is indeed to stay at home with mummy and daddy...
No no no, the smart choice is to stay with your good friend enjoying one of the happiest environments in the world, the grass cannot get any greener. 😀
I know these last 93 pages have been folk arguing about the effect an Ind Scotland would have on the Scots, but I wonder what it would mean exactly for England?
Apart from being diminished slightly on the world stage and less fishing rights...oh and a base for our subs, is there anything we'd actually miss?
is there anything we'd actually miss?
I don't know, why not start a thread and ask about it?
Apart from being diminished slightly on the world stage and less fishing rights...oh and a base for our subs, is there anything we'd actually miss?
a round of the DH World Cup & EWS ?
, is there anything we'd actually miss?
a lot of electricity and water lol
No need to start another thread this topic seems to pollute almost every other thread on here
[quote=Rockape63 ]I know these last 93 pages have been folk arguing about the effect an Ind Scotland would have on the Scots, but I wonder what it would mean exactly for England?
Apart from being diminished slightly on the world stage and less fishing rights...oh and a base for our subs, is there anything we'd actually miss?
https://twitter.com/_PaulMonaghan/status/840280454238523396
BBC R4 today highlighting that US$ earned on sale of [b]Scotland's oil is the crucial factor sustaining the entire UK balance of trade[/b].
8)
kimbers - Membera round of the DH World Cup & EWS ?
They'd have to come up with a new name for the British Downhill Series. Something like "Welsh Downhill Series" maybe
[quote=Northwind ]kimbers - Member
a round of the DH World Cup & EWS ?
They'd have to come up with a new name for the British Downhill Series. Something like "Welsh Downhill Series" maybe
The Queen Elizabeth Lord Nelson Winston Churchill Battle Of Britain Downhill Series
Bob - you missed out 1966 😉
And "truly", everything is "truly" these days.
aracer - Member
...So what you're telling me is that none of the ex colonies which successfully made a go of independence had a deficit like Scotland?
Ah, the deficit. What deficit? The one Westminster deems it to have, or the one it is not allowed to have.
That's been discussed ad nauseam, and no doubt we will leave taking our % proportion of the UK's national debt.
Probably more to the point, how is the UK going to survive with the size of deficit it has? Especially once the hallowed banking sector moves to the EU.
imnotverygood - Member
How did you vote on Brexit epicyclo? Sounds pretty much how a Leave would argue. What you are arguing for is the right to leave & ignore making out a credible economic case for it...
I voted Remain, albeit with some reservations regarding Greece, and lately the threats by Juncker to make the UK suffer to deter any other countries leaving. The biggest advantage of the EU to me is the lack of a debilitating European war for the last 70 years, some sort of record. Peace is well worth having at twice the price.
I don't think Brexit is necessarily a bad thing for England in the long run, but oh what a bunch of numpties running it.
It's not smart to start negotiations by offending the other side unless you hold all the cards, and the UK doesn't hold many. The fundamental problem with the UK is its born-to-rule class, some are very talented, but the others would never get near the levers of power in any other country.
[quote=epicyclo ]Ah, the deficit. What deficit? The one Westminster deems it to have, or the one it is not allowed to have.
Nope, the one Holyrood deems it to have.
Probably more to the point, how is the UK going to survive with the size of deficit it has? Especially once the hallowed banking sector moves to the EU.
Slightly better than Scotland with the size of its deficit.
I presume from your reaction this is an issue you're going to ignore - yet you're happy enough to bang on about how Scotland will do fine economically after independence because all the colonies which have become independent have done, despite this very obvious difference you've helped identify.
New downhill series
"The Truly 1966 Queen Elizabeth Lord Nelson Winston Churchill Battle Of Britain Downhill Bake- Off Series"
^ will it be presented by a national treasure?
Aracer, you got that list of failed countries similar in size and make up to Scotland yet?
How about you imnotverygood?
I'm still waiting for the evidence of similarity of Scotland to those countries you'd like to be like.
[I]I know these last 93 pages have been folk arguing about the effect an Ind Scotland would have on the Scots, but I wonder what it would mean exactly for England?
Apart from being diminished slightly on the world stage and less fishing rights...oh and a base for our subs, is there anything we'd actually miss?
[/I]
There must be something (and doesn't have to be a physical item) key and Mrs May knows what it is, which is why she's saying Scotland can be independent BUT not until after it's needed.
Where's Jamba and THM when you need them, they'll know the political and logical reason(s).
& as we keep saying. Aside from population size what is do you think is 'similar' about the countries you'd like to compare Scotland to. What is it about a country of 5 million that makes it so very much different from a country with 60 million?
The point is you seem to feel that Scotland is failing as part of the UK, but your only response to the question of why it will succeed as an independent country is to say 'look at Denmark'. Well, look at Germany. What does that prove in a UK context?
imnotverygood - Member
What does that prove in a UK context?
we'll it's a mirror, it's a smaller nation and a larger nation getting on peacefully. canny say it looks much like armageddon.
@epic yes its fair to say economic models are equally worthless imo whether they are optimistic or pessimistic. As a model example you can look at the HMRC/ Remain paper with all the equations - must be valuable look at all those formulas !
@b r May is quite rightly prioritising the EU negotiations. She also knows the chance of a Yes is lower post Brexit as the UK's deal will be clear and its "good" less incentive for Scotland to leave and if its "bad" then its bad for Scotland in the EU as the UK is its largest trading partner. May is not opining on wjether Scotland can be independent but the timing of a second "once in a lifetime" Indy Ref
I mute NS as well as AS now but once again I thought Sugdale nailed it today when she said NS just wakes uo every day thinking of Indy and not making Scottish schools better or helping the poor. There is only one agenda
[I]@b r May is quite rightly prioritising the EU negotiations. She also knows the chance of a Yes is lower post Brexit as the UK's deal will be clear and its "good" less incentive for Scotland to leave and if its "bad" then its bad for Scotland in the EU as the UK is its largest trading partner. May is not opining on wjether Scotland can be independent but the timing of a second "once in a lifetime" Indy Ref[/I]
Yes, but IMO it isn't about whether Indy is Yes/No but something of while Scotland is important for the Brexit negotiation, is it as simple as we're another 5m population plus natural resources or more to do with politics?
NS just wakes uo every day thinking of Indy and not making Scottish schools better or helping the poor.
Haha
Unlike May coz she thinks about Brexit and Grammar schools, neither of which help the poor, infact quite the opposite
and Grammar schools, neither of which help the poor, infact quite the opposite
Funny, I thought Grammar Schools did help the poor clever kids, who get an education that pushes them to achieve, rather like Private Schools for people who can afford them.
JAMBALAYASugdale nailed it today when she said NS just wakes uo every day thinking of Indy and not making Scottish schools better or helping the poor
If I'm not mistaken, as part the recent council tax increase for band E upwards, the SNP proposal was to ring-fence that extra money for the exclusive use of schools.
The tories, labour etc forced them to abandon that but the SNP have agreed to meet the equivalent funding from elsewhere.
But aye, all the SNP do is indy driven...
Yes, but IMO it isn't about whether Indy is Yes/No but something of while Scotland is important for the Brexit negotiation, is it as simple as we're another 5m population plus natural resources or more to do with politics?
Because she believes that the whole of the UK benefits from a focus on the Brexit negotiations to get a good deal?
Because running the two arguments in parallel might not give both the proper attention?
Because the prospect of Scottish independence debate during the A50 period may undermine the Brexit negotiations?
If I'm not mistaken, as part the recent council tax increase for band E upwards, the SNP proposal was to ring-fence that extra money for the exclusive use of schools.
The SNP proposal was that council tax was unfair, regressive and not fit for purpose. It was frozen until they could replace it with something more appropriate.
Actually THM has been really quiet; he isn't on the naughty step is he?
duckman - MemberActually THM has been really quiet; he isn't on the naughty step is he?
He's halfway through course #137 of a dinner with some [i]extremely[/i] interesting people.
😛
sbob - Member
He's halfway through course #137 of a dinner with some extremely interesting people.
Guy Martin, Valentino Rossi AND Terrahawk?
Funny, I thought Grammar Schools did help the poor clever kids, who get an education that pushes them to achieve,
That's the theory, in reality
you and May both wrong on that one, infact they do the exact opposite.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-37364697
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/mar/09/grammar-schools-new-figures-reveal-favouritism
Intervention at 11 years old is too late to improve the outcomes of disadvantaged children.
Funnily enough the Tory's have spent the last 10 years systematically dismantling a programme that has been shown to improve outcomes for the poorest.
The SNP proposal was that council tax was unfair, regressive and not fit for purpose. It was frozen until they could replace it with something more appropriate
Wrong
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-37837010
The council tax freeze is to end in 2017,
He pointed out that the plans would raise £100m to be spent on education, and said the SNP would not let party politics get in the way of this.
Why does may no0t want a referendum now?
Multiple resons but IMO the main ones are
She loses bargaining power / positions ie fishing rights - very imprtant to spain will be one of her bargaining chops. If there is a scottish independence vote in the offing she lose that. Also that some of the London financial institutions would move to Edinburgh losing her more bargaining power as she would have a muchg weaker case for prtotecting them
Financial loss - she knows like every other sensible person that Scotland has supported the rest of the UK financially for 30 years and while this has not been true the last couple of years it will be again in the future.
Pride
Deep resentment of being rejected by scotland
The objection was not to the funding of schools, but to central government making tax & spend decisions which are the preserve of local authorities. It was perceived to be undermining the democratic accountability of local government. I'm sure a clever mind could have got round that but they're in short supply in Holyrood.If I'm not mistaken, as part the recent council tax increase for band E upwards, the SNP proposal was to ring-fence that extra money for the exclusive use of schools.The tories, labour etc forced them to abandon that but the SNP have agreed to meet the equivalent funding from elsewhere.
Financial loss - she knows like every other sensible person that Scotland has supported the rest of the UK financially for 30 years and while this has not been true the last couple of years it will be again in the future.
It's been a 300 year union, why so selective with the timeline for who contributed?
Why does may no0t want a referendum now?
Might be busy with Brexit?
The whole indyref 2 thing stinks of the "auld alliance", May needs a new Earl of Surrey to manage the rerun of Flodden whilst she engages the Eurocrats
I do love Davidsons line that the scottish government do not have a mandate for calling a referendum. It both goes against her earlier statements ( I think she was slapped into line by London) and simply is not coherent
Elected on a manifesto with a clear commitment to hold one getting almost 50% of the vote - significantly higher than the tories had for the EU referendum
56 of 59 scots MPS
Majority in parliament for it
What more of a mandate do you need?
Of course the timing is opportunistic.
I don't think the SNP have ever hidden what their goals are, this strengthens sturgeons hand
It was blindingly obvious that after using EU membership as an argument for No, when the vote to Leave was made that another referendum was on the cards,
again this was not a secret, the SNP were pretty clear about all this.
It was also part of [b]PROJECT FEAR[/b]
I do love Davidsons line that the scottish government do not have a mandate for calling a referendum. It both goes against her earlier statements ( I think she was slapped into line by London) and simply is not coherent
I really don't think "London" tells Ruth what to do. They have no control over her nor a need to control her, her power base is in Scotland, she isn't looking at a Westminster job and she is very good at getting people to like her yet she isn't a threat to future conservative leaders because she is not in Westminster. She is now the public "safe pair of hands" for the conservatives and the effective opposition in the Scottish Parliament
Of course the timing is opportunistic.
May could have called the SNPs bluff and granted a snap indyref2 prior to Article 50 being triggered. At least then it would have been one battle at a time and the SNP could make good on all their promises of iS being able to stay in the EU
big_n_daft - Member
...I really don't think "London" tells Ruth what to do. They have no control over her nor a need to control her, her power base is in Scotland, she isn't looking at a Westminster job and she is very good at getting people to like her yet she isn't a threat to future conservative leaders because she is not in Westminster. She is now the public "safe pair of hands" for the conservatives and the effective opposition in the Scottish Parliament
I'll be disappointed if her recent statements are not as a result of her being pulled into line. I thought the current pusillanimous mode was because she was under orders.
However for all that she is lauded as highly popular by the BritNat media, the Tories had a bigger % of the vote in Margaret Thatcher's time. That's not really a resounding success.
[I]I don't think the SNP have ever hidden what their goals are,[/I]
Was it their party name that gave the game away, or that it was in the manifesto that they were elected on - or something that I've missed...