Or any evidence for this
despite the fact that she now has most of the powers that she would have as an independent country
aye but you're only arguing about day 1. it's how these conversations always go. I'm not, I'm taking a wild stab in the dark that we'll be better off in the long term making our own decisions(I freely admit that.). I've said it many times, it's a decision I'm willing to live with, for better or poorer.eat_the_pudding - Member
seosamh77
As I said above I'm not arguing that Scotland COULD not be independent.I'm arguing that based on the best figures available, produced by the SNP government themselves, it would be poorer for it.
You can try and whittle that down to a balance sheet all you like. But it's not really going to sway me.
Would I prefer to wait until the figures look better? Yes. Will I take the chance if it comes next year? Yes. Fully aware of the figures.
Och aye, Scots are incapable of managing their country's finances. If something goes wrong wey're incapable of sorting it out.
We don't have enough resources.
Oh we do have oil, but that's obviously a bad thing because we'd quickly be as broke as Saudi Arabia or Norway if we didn't have the wise guidance of Westminster to spend it on Trident nukes and HS2 and foreign wars.
Now let's consider a hypothetical case.
Let's say you have a country.
Now who best to run that country?
That country itself, or the bigger country next door?
Hmmm, deep thought...
Yup, maybe France should rule England in that case.
BTW the UK govt has been lying about the oil figures for the last 30+ years, so why should we believe them now?
she now has most of the powers that she would have as an independent country in the EU
She does?
http://www.parliament.scot/visitandlearn/Education/18642.aspx
This seems to suggest otherwise. Lot's of powers still reserved to Westminster. Maybe you should read up a bit more.
Plus I'd also like to hear of any examples of people's that have split from UK rule and want the UK to rule once again?
Not really relevant in this case as Scotland is part of the UK, it isn't ruled by the UK. That is playing into the hands of the SNP who like to portray Scotland as this helpless oppressed little country under the tyrannical rule of the evil English empire.
And anyway, there are lots of people all over the world who would love British rule back which was far more benevolent than the corrupt tin pot dictators they have now. Trouble is no one ever asks these people.
Trouble is no one ever asks these people.
Except you?
Now who best to run that country?
That country itself, or the bigger country next door?
Who best to run that country? You on your own, or A COMBINATION of you and the country next door?
Emotive rubbish, you speak.
More like on our own where we seek co-operation from the best available source when required.
I don't subscribe the the theory of poor wee oppressed scotland, never have and never will. I just think scotland wants to go in a different directions from rUK which is really the ultimate source of my opinions. In that sense, UK rule is apt, particularly right now.
The SNP don't are not the source of my opinions.
I don't subscribe the the theory of poor wee oppressed scotland
You may not be the subtext of the SNP message is exactly that, that we are under English rule, except they won't use the term English and prefer the less emotive Westminster. You only have to look above in this thread to see an example of how the suggestion is that we are somehow "ruled" by England ie
Now who best to run that country?
That country itself, or the bigger country next door?
tbh thats just your own paranoia, bursting to call the scots racist. They aren't, and the SNP aren't either. (The first shots of the better together 2 campaign trying to out right state as much a few weeks ago pretty much got laughed down. as it righty should have)
molgrips - Member
Who best to run that country? You on your own, or A COMBINATION of you and the country next door?Emotive rubbish, you speak.
Emotive, of course it is, but we call it democracy here...
well they have the govt the English vote for and they have the Brexit outcome the english voted for and they can have a ref vote if england lets them etcYou only have to look above in this thread to see an example of how the suggestion is that we are somehow "ruled" by England ie
Its just true to say this
yes they have considerable devolved powers but its basically true that what decided the UK position is what england does not what scotland does
NOw I understand why you want to use hyperbolic language to describe the SNP position but the fact is England does decide for Scotland on a number of important issues
GIven this it snot hard to see why a country that does not voted for things starts to question the benefit of the union or feel oppressed by their neighbours being considerably more right wing and narrow minded than them and forcing them to do this as well.
The notion that the SNP is racist is ludicrous the Tories are a nationalist party - just for the whole union- but they are not racists either[ even if some of their supporters are].
NHS and Education facts as requested.
Education
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-38207729 ]scottish pisa results[/url] also here [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-38157811 ]more pisa results[/url]
There are other international comparisons but Scotland has mostly withdrawn from them under the leadership of the woman I like to call "Judge me on my education record" Sturgeon.
NHS comparison [url= https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/research/funding-and-performance-of-healthcare-systems-in-the-four-countries-of-the-uk-before-and-after-devolution ]here[/url]
And please stop shouting "too poor too wee" over and over like you've dropped something in your potty worth looking at.
Facts are facts.
Be honest (like some) and accept that Nationalism is its own reward for you.
Thats OK. It doesn't have to be good value for money for YOU.
Just hope that it happens while you're healthy, have no kids, and can pay your own way.
But other people are interested in the best FACTS available and whether the flag on its own will enable them to live in the way they've become accustomed to (with an NHS, social care, and a costly if ill managed education system etc.).
If there are good non-economic arguments for independence, start making them instead of pretending we'll all be rich or no worse off. Even the SNP have moved off that ground.
If relative economic prosperity isn't important then admit the truth and find something else, and I hope for your sake the argument amounts to more than flags and copies of braveheart.
EDIT: It is correct that independence would bring more powers.
But what have the SNP done with the powers they have? (beyond finding excuses not to use them)
tbh thats just your own paranoia, bursting to call the scots racist.
Not at all, I am Scottish and I live up here. Scottish people are generally just as open minded as other British people.
The people the SNP really reserve their hatred for are other Scots who disagree with them. I have debated politics many times with loads of different people. However in the run up too the referendum I was called traitor, scum, unScottish and told to **** off down to England, and that I was a disgrace to my country. All by SNP supporters. Obviously people like that are a minority as most SNP folk are quite decent, but it is a substantial minority.
Can i just check I've not entered a wormhole and gone back in time, because this whole page appears transplanted from the first ref thread (to be fair that's mostly been the case since I joined back in and I haven't particularly helped). Have you not found anything new to discuss in the 30 or 40 pages I didn't bother reading?
One obvious difference this time is if/when any discussions on the split happened it will be presumably be a UDI rather than an agreed split, so if you're hoping to avoid some of these problems through negotiating helpful terms you might be disappointed.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-25216523
I am no education expert by any means but from above...
Many within Scottish education play down the significance of the PISA rankings. They argue that the tests only cover very specific skills. In particular, they pay no attention to the concept of deeper learning and understanding - a vital concept in Scotland's Curriculum for Excellence. The thought is that deeper learning - truly understanding a subject rather than just giving a youngster facts and figures - equip them far better for the world of work or later study.
...and then the below...
...maybe there is something in it.
Can i just check I've not entered a wormhole
Wormhole for defs
Aye well, as you say minority, I'll leave you to focus on the lowest common denominator. No a game i'm interested in playing. It's just not relevant.kennyp - Member
tbh thats just your own paranoia, bursting to call the scots racist.
Not at all, I am Scottish and I live up here. Scottish people are generally just as open minded as other British people.The people the SNP really reserve their hatred for are other Scots who disagree with them. I have debated politics many times with loads of different people. However in the run up too the referendum I was called traitor, scum, unScottish and told to **** off down to England, and that I was a disgrace to my country. All by SNP supporters. Obviously people like that are a minority as most SNP folk are quite decent, but it is a substantial minority.
@seaso how many Scots in the armed forces and support infrastructure ? All on the dole ? Not a member of NATO then ? Does the Navy do fisheries protection ?
I can't see UK being lender of last resort, too much moral hazard, ie SNP free to F it all up knowing UK will pay. Also UK was not lender of last resort to Ireland, we chipped €5bn into the bailout but that was just a small part. Look at eurozone support for Greece, done at totally uneconomic rates and Greeks complain endlessly about being crushed.
The SNP don't want a Referendum now or in 2018 as they know they won't win, they want the ability to call one at a point of their choosing at anytime in the future. IMO they will not be granted that "free option"
Aye well, as you say minority, I'll leave you to focus on the lowest common denominator. No a game i'm interested in playing. It's just not relevant.
Not a game I'm interested in either but as you had brought the racism angle into the debate I thought I'd give my experience of it.
As for the lowest common denominator I just stopped debating with them. It's not worth the grief. Plenty of pleasant, educated independence supporters out there I'd rather argue with.
If there are good non-economic arguments for independence, start making them instead of pretending we'll all be rich or no worse off. Even the SNP have moved off that ground.
If relative economic prosperity isn't important then admit the truth and find something else, and I hope for your sake the argument amounts to more than flags and copies of braveheart.
I agree with this its like a divorce in the short run the "economics" make no sense / you will be worse of but its not the only thing that matters [ unless you are THM ] but at least be honest
As I said I would vote for almost anythign that removed Tory influence from my life
I can't see UK being lender of last resort
Totally agree. It was made clear last time that the UK would not act in this capacity to an independent Scotland. Which would leave Scotland at the mercy of the world financial markets and with a hopeless credit rating.
Yes km79 Curriculum for Excellence is great (titters).
Thats what everyone says
For example after the PISA results John Swinney said;
John Swinney, the Scottish Education Minister, said: “There is great strength in Scottish education but these results underline the case for radical reform of Scotland’s education system."The results undoubtedly make uncomfortable reading but they contain a plain message: we must continue to make the changes that are necessary to strengthen Scottish education.”
Did you see what he did there;
After 10 YEARS of SNP control of education there is an apparent need for "radical reform of Scotland’s education system"
I've just realised that people in this thread are putting a more positive spin on the economic argument for independence and the performance of Scotlands education system than Nichola Sturgeon and John Swinney feel able to.
This may be the perfect moment foretold by the prophets, where STWs ringpiece rushed skyward from its open mouth like the firing of the weapon in the final scenes of the Fifth Element.
I'm calling it a night and carrying that thought off with me. I may return in 10 pages to repeat myself.
As will we all.
TTFN :O)
Genuine question to anyone in favour of a second referendum......if the answer was no again, would you then call for a third?
Km - your right on the Unis - best in the UK but behind that nice facade*
Scotlands best Uni student breakdown (approx)
Nasty rich English 35%
Loud v rich yanks 35%
Salt(ire) of the earth Scots 30% (IGMC)
Hmmm....canny folk at those Unis knowing where the money is and we all know the stats on Scottish educational equality despite free tuition.
* Plus poor old wee eck forgot his second year macro teaching from the best faculty and the best Uni about currencies and how central banks work. Shame on all the alumni
Yes km79 Curriculum for Excellence is great (titters).
Well it did receive cross party support when it was being developed. It was given a try and it's been recognised it needs improvement. Interestingly the SNP are willing to admit that yet the other parties who initially broadly supported it have resorted to sniping from the sidelines having disowned their own involvement.
Genuine question to anyone in favour of a second referendum......if the answer was no again, would you then call for a third?
Not right away, no - but I wouldn't give up on the idea of Scottish independence.
km79
10 years of full control.
10 YEARS
that is all.
definitely going now.
games up if it's lost. Why I prefer to wait longer.kennyp - Member
Genuine question to anyone in favour of a second referendum......if the answer was no again, would you then call for a third?
in the short run the "economics" make no sense / you will be worse of but its not the only thing that matters [ unless you are THM ]
The trouble is, all the figures suggest the economics will be significantly worse for at least your lifetime. Which will have a big impact on all the things which do matter to you. As I pointed out earlier to TJ an awful lot of things do come down to money, and without it the reality is that the SNP (or whoever the Scottish government is) will be forced to have policies which IDS and Gove could only dream of.
you're mistaking political waffle for reality and the chance to make a profit.kennyp - Member
It was made clear last time that the UK would not act in this capacity to an independent Scotland.
Aracer - you are forgetting the Tartan Money Tree - oh and taxing the rich bastards and companies
You could start on the latter by increasing the MRT to 50p - oh wait, why did the SNP say that they wouldn't do this?
Still you could always raise corporation tax - oh, wait, we are going to charge them less than in England
.....there's a trend with this having you cake and eat it stuff
No Joe - one is listening to the (independent) Governor of the (independent) BoE - he understands these things
Here's a link to the revised version of that Nuffield report
ETP
[url= https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/research/the-four-health-systems-of-the-uk-how-do-they-compare ]Nuffield Centre revised report 2014[/url]
Or there's this here which suggests that Scotland spent it's NHS funding more "judiciously"
[url= https://chpi.org.uk/blog/devolution-mean/ ]CHPI report[/url]
Although both say it is more and more difficult to make comparisons due to different methods of information gathering
OMG - is this still going on?
seosamh77 - MemberWell reserves is a good question. Many like to point if the deficit Scotland have. But let's tally up the total Debt and reserves and see where we stand with that too. What's scotlands share of the assets?
well said
epicyclo - MemberOch aye, Scots are incapable of managing their country's finances. If something goes wrong wey're incapable of sorting it out.
We don't have enough resources.
Oh we do have oil, but that's obviously a bad thing because we'd quickly be as broke as Saudi Arabia or Norway if we didn't have the wise guidance of Westminster to spend it on Trident nukes and HS2 and foreign wars.
Now let's consider a hypothetical case.
Let's say you have a country.
Now who best to run that country?
That country itself, or the bigger country next door?
Hmmm, deep thought.................
And again well said
aracer - Memberin the short run the "economics" make no sense / you will be worse of but its not the only thing that matters [ unless you are THM ]
There will be deficits for a few years I am sure given the awful mess we would be left with but it will not be as bad as you think given the gers figures don't show the whole picture
Oh we do have oil, but that's obviously a bad thing because we'd quickly be as broke as Saudi Arabia or Norway if we didn't
We had oil. Most of it is gone. The stuff left is in smaller expensive to access fields. Prices are down. Predicted oil revenue for the next couple of years - zero.
Alex Salmond had planned 24 March 2016 as his independence day and the budget he published during the Scottish independence referendum envisaged it having up to £7.5 billion of oil to spend. Today’s Budget shows that the figure will, instead be zero: precisely 100 per cent less than what the SNP had told Scots
The trouble is, all the figures suggest the economics will be significantly worse for at least your lifetime. Which will have a big impact on all the things which do matter to you
I am not entirely sure that having less money to spend where I want is worse than having more money to spend where [s]the Tories[/s]someone else decides where to spend it
Neither seem that great an option tbh.
I had forgotten how hysterical THM got on this issue , he hates the SNP more than I hate the Tories 😯
That is an impressive level of hate.
kennyp - Member
Genuine question to anyone in favour of a second referendum......if the answer was no again, would you then call for a third?
Depends how many lies and dirty tricks Westminster pulls this time.
If they'd lived up to their promises last time by now the SNP would not be in the ascendancy. Now a lot of No voters have come over to Yes.
I have no doubt they will repeat the same bovis stercore - we're already getting the meme pumped at us that the SNP cannot hold a referendum unless Westminster approves.
Given the energy in this thread today after headlines about what wee nippy was saying, it's was amusing to watch it live on BBC 2 now. Nothing like the headlines - no surprise there. A far more hedged discussion.
Scotland has a level of devolved power that is rarely seen in the world - Canada and Switz aside - and yet the BS narrative is all about control from Westminster. Brilliant.
rather like the UK pre-Brexit you could hardly get a better deal. And yet hard line nutters - Brexshiteers and Sexshiteers - will lie their best to destroy it, Brilliant ^2
teamhurtmore - Member
...Scotland has a level of devolved power that is rarely seen in the world ...
Devolved power is like saying your dog runs free because you have a long lead.
We're not your dog.
Scotland has a level of devolved power that is rarely seen in the world - Canada and Switz aside - and yet the BS narrative is all about control from Westminster. Brilliant.
Probably because folk understand the difference between devolved and independent
Has westminster said its up to scotland if they have a vote and they will respect the decision? Until they do its pretty obvious to all , even the willfully partisan, where the control really lies and who can rescind it
No one is stating that but nice try.
The basic reality of having very high levels of devolved power within a strong and well functioning union that could hardly be bettered is all rather inconvenient. Why? Because the excuses that it's not our fault don't wash then do they. Even a dog could get that, on a lead or otherwise.
kennyp - Member
Genuine question to anyone in favour of a second referendum......if the answer was no again, would you then call for a third?Depends how many lies and dirty tricks Westminster pulls this time.
Exactly why so many of us up here are sick of the SNP. Total unwillingness to accept the democratic result, blame Westminster and accuse them of cheating, and demand we keep voting and voting and voting until we give in and deliver the result the SNP demand.
Vote No in 2018 and by 2022 we get a third? Then a fourth?
Yes Scotland has a lot of devolved "independence" granted from westminster but that very statement tells you who has the control
Its indisputable
