Scotland Indyref 2

It seems the only credible reason is that they have either ill-will or antagonism towards Scotland.

Perhaps another credible reason is that we want what is best for Scotland. However we see the best future as being in a union with England, Wales and Northern Ireland. Insulting people who don't agree with you isn't likely to win over anyone who is undecided.

It doesn't have to be a direct comparison, in fact none of them can be. Then there's also all the other countries that have secured independence from the other European countries, and none of them want back either.

But on the other hand I don't see all the countries who gave up their independence to become the bigger country we now know as Germany desperately wanting to be independent again.

well said kenny!

Perhaps if the UK had adopted a federal system like Germany we might not have been in this position. Although given the brexit scenario there's no guarantee.

I would be quite happy with a proper federal system with the HOL abolished and 4 parliaments of equal powers

epicyclo

It seems the only credible reason is that they have either ill-will or antagonism towards Scotland.

I won't refrain from using the words sneering and condescending for this :O)

Is it not even a wee bit credible that [i]they[/i] live here, [i]they[/i] can't see the upside, and [i]they[/i] don't want the economic pain for themselves and their families.

Or maybe [i]they[/i] like being part of the UK as much as they liked being part of Europe?

After all [i]they[/i] were 55% of the population last time?

Do you know what [i]othering[/i] is?

tjagain
So would I for that matter. Except that that means full fiscal autonomy.

I would be quite happy with a proper federal system with the HOL abolished and 4 parliaments of equal powers

It's difficult when one part is so much larger than all the others. Plus London tends to complicate things. However broadly speaking I do agree with you. A well thought out federal solution would satisfy probably the majority.

So, will May be desperate enough to suggest a fully federal UK? Abd after "The Vow" would anyone believe her?

No and No

So what was wrong with the Vow?
I was under the impression that it was delivered and agreed on by Westminster and Scottish Govt?
Genuinely interested in info if it wasn't?

The vow certainly was not delivered in any form - indeed it was retracted as soon as they could. Indeed now May is talking about reducing holyroods reach in that devolved issues that were under EU regs now will go to Westminster not Holyrood ie fisheries

We did not get any significant further devolution and powers, Holyrood was not made permanent ( Westminster still holds the right to dissolve it)

It was an outright lie the VOW and never happened in any form " near home rule" " the most powerful devolved government in the world" all lies

Smith commission for example said Scotland should get full powers over income tax - what did we get - a small amount of power to tinker around the edges. We only got a portion of what Smith said we should and even Smith was nowhere near the vow and certainly not agreed by Sturgeon
" "I welcome what is being recommended" but argued that it "doesn’t deliver a modern form of home rule". Claiming that too little power would be devolved to Scotland, she added "I want to have the power in our hands to create a better system to lift people out of poverty, to get our economy growing. That’s the kind of powerhouse parliament I want. Sadly it’s not the one that’s going to be delivered."

tbh tj, the vow was succifiently vague that they could have offered scotland a mars bar and it would have been met. so whether or not the vow was met isn't really a point you can argue. Some more powers were delivered. Whether you were happy with them or not really just dependent on the hue of your nationalism, whether british or scottish.

4 equal parliaments? Well at least that would get rid of the voter imbalance that favours voters north of the border.

Nope - it states clearly that HOlyrood should be permanent and that there would be legislation to ensure this. It didn't happen.

Smith commission offered less than the vow and we didn't even get all that

Only 9% of scots think the vow was kept. this is one of the things driving a second referendum. We were lied to again

It was a stunt by the Daily Record, nothing else.

fair do's i take a different view in at if you believed you would have got what you want from the vow then you were aff yer nut... but hohumm. no a point i'll ever get animated about.

plus it wasn't really talking to nationalists, its was aimed a fence sitters anyhow, so it being fairly weak was always going to be the case.

She can't make promises about things she might lose control of in a few short months - and the EU negotiators know that."

She can make cast iron assurances that the UK will not grant a legally binding referendum for a generation.

She could probably even put that into law.

Question: If the EU are happy to reward nationalist separatists with membership of the EU, (including the Maastrict commitment to join the EZ) why don't the EU say so up front which would defuse the fears of the rest of the UK and I suspect many floating voters? Seems very odd for the EU not to do that if they're willing to have Scotland as a member.

The vow clearly states Holyrood should be permanent. This would require legislation in Westminster. It hasn't happened therefore the vow was not upheld.

outofbreath - Member

She could probably even put that into law.

Team Hurtmore was right. This really is a rehash of two very long and mostly extremely tedious years running up to the last "one in a lifetime" Referendum.

TJ the "vow" was a huge error. Cameron bottled it. Scots should have been offered nothing in addition to the very generous deal they have already.

[b]The most bizarre thing as someone noted above is that Scotland's economic fortunes as an independent nation are now almost entirely dependent upon the deal the UK negotiates with the EU.[/b]

tjagain - Member
The vow clearly states Holyrood should be permanent. This would require legislation in Westminster. It hasn't happened therefore the vow was not upheld.

Bugger.. another contentious subject....

Scots got nothing significant in addition to what is already a mean settlement. Full federal system would have kept the union going. Mays actions have ensured it will split.

Scotland fortunes are only tied to Englands deal with the EU if we stay in the union! Thats why most of us want to leave so we avoid the huge damage of leaving the EU

we're just getting warmed back up jamba! 😆

May cannot stop a scots referendum - she can only make it more difficult to hold and by doing that guarantees the YES vote

btw anyone else looking forward to jeremy corbyns fierce and energetic support for the union? 😆

probably could but she'd be just essentially signing over scotland to the nationists in 15/20 years time.

...and a Politician's horizon is how far?

Probably May will think a decent deal with the EU (whatever that means!) is probably worth the risk of a breakup of the union in 2040.

fair point.

btw anyone else looking forward to jeremy corbyns fierce and energetic support for the union?

I pissed myself laughing when I heard him say the Labour party was against it but wouldn't oppose it in any way! Sums up their whole strategy. "I strongly don't approve of you weeing in my shoes, but on principle I won't be moving them out of the stream of your piss."

What a great WW2 leader he would have been.

😆

no more bragging about Scotland's renewable industry.

Which is only viable with subsidies. If Scotland becomes independent and the renewables bill needs to be paid by Scottish rather than UK consumers look forward to electricity bill increases.

actually its not only viable with subsidies. ~With a market not rigged in favour of nukes and south east england its perfectly viable.

Not that we go round in circles but we did the vow four months ago

teamhurtmore - Member

"Remeber the main real driver for another referendum is that the promises we were given in 2014 have all been broken" {BS cough]

As you can see, among the lies that continue is the idea that the UK did not honour its promised made (in the false panic) pre-vote.[b] But as we know, the detail was left to the Smith Commission and the SNP signed off on that agreement with the other parties. As per, they later muddied the waters, claiming that what was agreed was not enough. [/b]So guess what - the Uk didnt deliver becomes a false narrative. Usual SNP smoke and mirrors stuff....

In contrast:

Analysts from the Scottish Parliament Information Centre concluded that the fiscal changes set out in the Smith Commission would mean H[b]olyrood was one of the most economically powerful devolved parliaments in the world, compared to federal systems like Germany and Switzerland[/b]
Source: fullfacts

Cake and eat it......

And people want to throw this away in favour of poorly thought-through/not-thought through fluff and nonsense. Like Brexshit it would be the most vulnerable members of Scottish society that would lose out.

Insanity

POSTED 4 MONTHS AGO #

The vow was largely a stunt as Seosamh says. No doubt it convinced some folk but hopefully very few.
For a few weeks in the referendum it seemed that a better way of doing politics was possible with more openness, transparency and straightforward involvement of ordinary people as they had become involved in the referendum campaign. The Smith Commission was the death of that being secretive and selected from a the old narrow elite. The SNP were complicit in that. Though it didn't come as a surprise. Federalism should have been an option in 79 and again in 97.

Probably May will think a decent deal with the EU (whatever that means!) is probably worth the risk of a breakup of the union in 2040.

We faced Scotland leaving the Union in 2014 and for nothing in return. If an iS is the price for leaving the EU that will be well worth paying.

After 2 years of the last campaign now I just trun off the sound as soon as Salmond or Sturgeon appear. The only positve is Sturgeon helped deliver a Tory majoroty with her "I can make you Prime Minister" humilation of Milliband in 2015 GE debate. The thought of a Labour / SNP coalition was key to Tories winning Lib Dem seats in the South West.

The thought of a Labour / SNP coalition was key to Tories winning Lib Dem seats in the South West.

With a market not rigged in favour of nukes and [b]south east England[/b] its perfectly viable.

Do you understand anything about the transmission of electricity ? It's best to generate it close to where it's required. Like Real Ale it doesn't travel well.

[quote=jambalaya ]

Scots should have been offered nothing in addition to the very generous deal they have already.

Please, please, please never stop posting stuff like this. It's better propaganda than the SNP could ever come up with.

Seaso SNP vs Scots in general very different. As I posted before I was very happy to teach lady sat next to me in a Scottsih jersey the words to Flower of Scotland and cheer the team on againat Australia in RWC QF vs Australia. I wouldn't give the SNP the time of day and as above just turn the sound off now.

Holyrood should be permanent.

Permanent? They're barely able to stop the bloody place falling down round their ears after twelve years.

jamba - like the 5 million in Scotland. It costs a scottish energy plant more to transmit its elecy to a consumer in Scotland than it does for an english firm to do so

jambalaya - Member
With a market not rigged in favour of nukes and south east England its perfectly viable.

Do you understand anything about the transmission of electricity ? It's best to generate it close to where it's required. Like Real Ale it doesn't travel well.

#jambafact 😆

the longest cost-effective distance for DC electricity was determined to be 7,000 km (4,300 mi). For AC it was 4,000 km (2,500 mi). What do we have in practice? ABB is building a 2,375 kilometer (1,550 miles) transmission link in Brazil, based on HVDC (High Voltage Direct Current - the power plant produces AC, the end user uses AC, but in between, DC is used for transfer - so you have an AC/DC and DC/AC conversion at start and end points, respectively).

Please, please, please never stop posting stuff like this. It's better propaganda than the SNP could ever come up with.

I'll agree to that 100%. Feel free to circulate how much I despise the SNP and how grateful I am they kept the Labour Party out of a coalition government. The Referendum would have been won for No anyway, the "vow" was a total waste of time and effort.

Do you actually despise them?

Canny say I even hate the tories tbh! 😆

I despise tories and eu outies.

Can't say I have anytime for hatred in my life.

Given the real damage they have caused I despise them. It was done deliberately and with cruelty in mind. Thats enough for me. I have seen peoples lives ruined by nasty tory policy that was created for no reason other than to appease the right wing press and I have seen this cause massive damage to peoples lives

[I]Do you understand anything about the transmission of electricity ? It's best to generate it close to where it's required. Like Real Ale it doesn't travel well. [/I]

Ah, that'll be why we get it from France - nearer London/SE. 😉

The Tories have spent 6 years trying to unwind the disaster Labour left in 2010, a deficit of £90bn a year was just the start.

The more I think about it the more I love WTO option with the EU. Clean and simple and we move on to focus elsewhere. All the tariffs/taxes go to NHS. Now the Scotland question takes care of itself, iS has the WTO deal with its biggest export market (80% of its goods) and thus Indy much less likely and the SNP are toast for a very long time. In the unlikely event Indy is passed then good luck with the EU and the SNP is off our screens.

eat_the_pudding - Member
...After all they were 55% of the population last time?

I'm pretty sure my comments have been directed at those who do not have a vote in Scotland.

And as for [i]"sneering and condescending"[/i] we've had a master class in that from the Union supporters.

jambalaya - Member
...The more I think about it the more I love WTO option with the EU. Clean and simple and we move on to focus elsewhere. All the tariffs/taxes go to NHS. Now the Scotland question takes care of itself, iS has the WTO deal with its biggest export market (80% of its goods) and thus Indy much less likely and the SNP are toast for a very long time. In the unlikely event Indy is passed then good luck with the EU and the SNP is off our screens.

Seeing as the UK is likely to disintegrate anyway, wouldn't it be simpler if England simply left the UK?

Jambalaya - Member
[b]If an iS is the price for leaving the EU that will be well worth paying[/b].

that right there is a superlative example of the Little Englander mentality

For the benefit of those who think Theresa May can prevent a referendum:

[i]United Nations General Assembly resolution 1514 (XV)
1. The subjection of peoples to alien subjugation, domination and exploitation constitutes a denial of fundamental human rights, is contrary to the Charter of the United Nations and is an impediment to the promotion of world peace and co-operation.
2. All peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.
3. Inadequacy of political, economic, social or educational preparedness should never serve as a pretext for delaying independence.
4. Any attempt aimed at the partial or total disruption of the national unity and the territorial integrity of a country is incompatible with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations.
5. All States shall observe faithfully and strictly the provisions of the Charter of the United Nations, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the present Declaration on the basis of equality, non-interference in the internal affairs of all States, and respect for the sovereign rights of all peoples and their territorial integrity.[/i]

epicyclo - Member
Seeing as the UK is likely to disintegrate anyway, wouldn't it be simpler if England simply left the UK?

epicyclo - Member
For the benefit of those who think Theresa May can prevent a referendum:

You are quoting UN? 😆

Nahh the solution is very simple just refuse the referendum.

Refuse. Very simple.

Sturgeon cannot do anything about it.

Scotland isn't a colony epic. Stop thinking it is. It does the argument no favours. And the UN won't be coming to your rescue! 😆

If may tries to block a referendum we will have one anyway and it would be recognised by the EU and the UN. Like eritrea or slovenia

tjagain - Member
If may tries to block a referendum we will have one anyway and it would be recognised by the EU and the UN. Like eritrea or slovenia

Yes, but Eritrea and Slovenia are not really that important to be honest so they got their wish ...

Scotland is part of UK so not the same.

Can't say I have anytime for hatred in my life.

Very well said Joe.

tjagain - Member
If may tries to block a referendum we will have one anyway and it would be recognised by the EU and the UN. Like eritrea or slovenia

no it wouldn't. And rightly so. On what planet to you envisage 95%+ yes in a scottish referendum? (That's assumming unionists even turned up for it(I wouldn't even bother and I'm not a unionist. I'm not a nationalist either, but that's another story. 🙂 ))

Ha ha brilliant 🙂

The First Minister has embarked on an extensive tour of European capitals and the power bases of Brussels since the Brexit vote, which have resulted in a flurry of photo opportunities and press releases.

But the reality behind the spin is far less impressive, with her officials attempting to hide the fact she was [b]forced to meet a German minister in a restaurant[/b] because he would not allow formal talks in a government building and her Brexit minister infuriating the Spanish government with misleading claims about [b]non-existent talks[/b] between them.

chewkw - Member
Nahh the solution is very simple just refuse the referendum.

Refuse. Very simple.

Sturgeon cannot do anything about it.

I was going to explain, but your opinion is irrelevant.

Latest independence poll:

Yes 43%
No 57%

Sturgeon still offering a deal, according to Guardian, I would whether she gets one is the strongest indication of how rattled Theresa May is.

Yes - you three, only YES folk allowed here.

C'mon Theresa call her bluff. Secure a free trade deal plus transition agreement and watch it all evaporate like the lies that support it

mefty - Member
Latest independence poll:

Who conducted it?

Simon Rattle?

YouGov

Sturgeon is by nature a cautious politician and a consensus politician. Of course she wants a deal and of course she does not want to hold a referendum now - she wants to wait until the polls show a certain win because she knows one more chance is all the SNP get. On one side she has "the 45" pushing her hard plus large sections of her own party. On the other she knows the economic conditions are not good nor does she have the choice of dates really. So she is very much between a rock and a hard place and if May had any idea she would look for a compromise that Sturgeon could sign up to. However May has her own political issues in those that put her in power will remove her if she does not go for a hard leave.

Both constrained by events

some food for thought for the uber nationalists

[img] :large[/img]

Shes not going for a hard leave, however, much iS/yS supporters try to pretend otherwise.

She is negotiating a bespoke fair trade deal. Totally different and very "meaningful" for Scotland, hence the need for iS/yS (since we cant say the SNP mouthpiece) to lie consistently already.

tjagain - Member
So she is very much between a rock and a hard place and if May had any idea she would look for a compromise that Sturgeon could sign up to.

tbh i'm still not convinced this isn't just a ploy to force a seat at the negotiating table. And that a ref isn't the ultimate goal. A ref at this time is a massive gamble, and tbh, my initial impression, even in glasgow is that he prospect of it is look warm at the moment. (that will obviously change if peak campaign is reached.) But i think people are aware that it's do or die. and the whole EU thing just puzzles everyone at the moment, uncertainty is far from helpful..

There is a significant proportion of the yes vote that is also an out of the EU vote. maybe 30% of SNP voters

This lady makes Sturgeon look like a pussy. 🙂

[url=

very clear message to the British Government from Ireland.[/url]

A reminder that not all political differences are settled by words.

May is in a very strong position, this is counter intuitive because she has such a small majority, she has no realistic successor and so she has been able to deliver the Brexit Bill with hardly any internal dissent. She has done what the most successful PMs do, she has recognised when she has an opportunity to be bold and she has been.

...we'll know when she is rattled, she might talking about other poliicians being unelected/illegitimate 😉

Don't be silly, only Trump does that sort of thing.

i am sure she is delighted with your support.

She has done what she has done well but the real test is how hurt she gets with what she gets brexit wise. This will come equally from her own party and the electorate [ and normally an opposition but there is not really one at the minute]

I still think the jury is out on her but there has been nothing to suggest she is shit nor much to suggest she is great.

If the SNP lose the next referendum does that mean the SNP will have to disband? And then we won't have to go through all this stupidity for a 3rd time in 2024?

Also, why isn't someone with sense calling for a UK referendum on whether or not we should have a second referendum on Brexit with a sensible 60/40 margin or something similar to be required for change?

epicyclo - Member
This lady makes Sturgeon look like a pussy.

A very clear message to the British Government from Ireland.

A reminder that not all political differences are settled by words.

Yes, but they also take up arms ...

mefty - Member
Don't be silly, only Trump does that sort of thing.