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Private Pile from full metal jacket is probably a bad example.
It's not military school, and he wasn't disruptive, he just struggled to keep up with his squad.
I'm not sure punishing a whole class for the poor behaviour of a few is setting a positive example.
That said, with deterioration of behaviour and a lack of support to deal with it, what can schools realistically do about it? They can't simply expel pupils for persistent bad behavior or whack them round the back of the head so they have to try and strike a balance.
I'm not saying that it's right, but what's the alterative?
Read this through, OP, before you take any notice of theotherjonv:
https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/secondary-school-detentions/
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can't be arsed - I have my opinion whether it's reasonable, others have a different one.
All sounds a bit Victorian hard labour - no talking, walk around the yard clockwise, hands behind yet backs, don't look me in the eye. Makes me think of Oscar Wilde
Not a good choice by the teacher but perhaps the best you can do is have a word with your child and try and explain, in a way she can understand, that it isn't a refrlction on her, it is an attemot to address a particular problem, it may not be a great one but she is going to encounter that from time to time and come up with strategies for her to use to handle it.
You are probably not going to get very far with a teacher who thought it was a good idea in the first place....
Thank you everyone for your comments, as expected, some mixed opinions. I am going to contact the school today, explain the negative result this stategy has had on my daughter and hope they can consider my comments. We’ve explained to her that this is something she might just have to deal with but also that it was brave of her to speak out against something she felt was wrong. I will keep you all posted on any outcomes.
That's fair, if I may offer another opinion speak to the school but also be open minded and listen to their side as well.
And for your daughter, well done for speaking up but as I said to mine; sometimes life's a bit unfair and you need to accept that, and secondly pick your battles, is it really that important?
She has always had a very strong sense of fairness due to her brother having Aspergers and any measures used at home to control poor behaviour have always been fully discussed before they ere applied. I’m really hoping the school take on board my views and im guessing ther may be a few more parents to back me up. It is very useful to know the hives mind on this and especially Edukators link to Human Rights. As I’ve said, any developments will be posted up. Thanks again STW.
Copy this little girls example
https://www.thisisinsider.com/girl-teacher-war-crime-geneva-conventions-2017-5
you see already though you have my back up a bit. It's all about going to see the school and put YOUR point of view across and hope they take YOUR views on board, you don't seem to be very open minded about listening to what they might say on it.
And invoking the convention on human rights. Is this really a human rights issue?
In the grand scheme of things it if it's something that won't even register this time next month, I don't think it's worth the effort, and if you start quoting the human rights charter at them you'll be labelled for ever more.
She will learn more by politely discussing/challenging the teacher herself than a whinging parent coming in to do it for her. I suspect (if she is a well thought of pupil) that her telling the teacher that it makes her feel uncomfortable will have more impact than any upity parent trying to tell the teacher how to do their job.
If a direct discussion with the pupil and teacher doesn’t work then does the school have other mechanisms for empowering pupils? Eg I think most schools in Scotland have some UN rights of the child initiative going on.
I find it is a good way of filtering what really matters to my children - which issues are they prepared to go and argue about themselves and which do they expect me to do their bidding for them...
I think she would be happier if this new strategy was applied to the whole school. Her class have been singled out as the “naughty class” and it’s this which is grating her. The school wasn’t prepared to discuss this issue when I took her to school this morning and have been advised that the earliest i can speak to her teacher is next week!
To the OP - I haven't seen any mention of how this escalated. I think you need to find out what has already been done by the class teacher/s, SLT, head teacher to resolve the issue before you can make judgement. If the teacher suddenly decided on a whim after a bad day to have them march out like that then I can understand your frustration. If, however, they have tried many different approaches, have spoken to the parents of the children etc and still had no improvement in the overall class behaviour then warned the class that this would be the next step then I think it could be looked at as a perfectly reasonable escalation.
Having looked into the theory behind this strategy, I think the school have got it wrong. “Fantastic walking” should be about being proud and not used as punishment. If this had been applied to everyone at school including the staff then I wouldn’t have any issue and my daughter would probably have come home enthused about the change. She has recognised that as its just her class, she feels that she’s being punished for constant good behaviour and attitude to learning. I can see it from her point of view but happy for the school to explain the rationale behind this and how it benefits her.
The school wasn’t prepared to discuss this issue when I took her to school this morning and have been advised that the earliest i can speak to her teacher is next week
Email teacher and cc in the head. Be polite but say you are behind the school but think this needs looking at again.
The school wasn’t prepared to discuss this issue when I took her to school this morning and have been advised that the earliest i can speak to her teacher is next week!
That isn't a reasonable response time. Ask for school policy documents immediately, they are obliged to give you them:
https://www.gov.uk/school-discipline-exclusions
And if after reading the documents you feel that these disciplinary measures don't comply with the schools own procedures make a complaint using the procedure on the same site.
If in doubt lawyer up for free:
https://childlawadvice.org.uk/
just another viewpoint - who says it is a punishment? Is that your daughter's interpretation? Yours? Other parents?
How about if I was to say that her class has been selected to pilot the Proud Walking scheme and are an example to the rest of the school about how a well behaved class goes about their business? Would she be enthusiastic about it?
(not saying that's the case here but until you've heard both sides, are you drawing conclusions that aren't there?)
That isn’t a reasonable response time. Ask for school policy documents immediately, they are obliged to give you them
School seems perfectly reasonable, some bloke rocks up unannounced on a Wednesday morning asking to speak to a no doubt busy teacher about a non-urgent matter and is told he can have an appointment next week.
They are refusing to give their side until next week for an on-going punishment. Delaying a meeting is a bullying tactic, a week isn't a reasonable response time for an on-going disciplinary.
Madame (still a teacher) phones parents the same day when they request a meeting and anything that can can't be dealt with on the phone is done as soon as the head and parents are free at the same time, usually the end of the same school day or the following day.
The school is seeking conflict, it's up to you and your parent allies to decide how far you are prepared to take this.
No it still seems quite proportionate, OP can always bung in an email as suggested earlier.
I think a-a's suggestion of an e-mail is the next obvious step if that's the school's usual way of communicating, as a teacher I always prefered the phone as parents were usually warmer and more communicative in person than in text (with just text you get the lack of communication we suffer on this forum). Polite, firm and fair. The kind of approach and language you'd hope the school is using with your kids.
The school doesn't seem keen on talking though. They know they're doing wrong and are trying to fob you off.
I left my phone number and have just finished a call from her class teacher who has explained that this measure is to try to tackle the core element of the group who are constantly disrupting lessons after trying lots of other stratagies in class. My daughter has now been excused this strategy after i explaind how upset she was so hopefull life can continue as normal. I fully understand that controlling disruptive pupils is a big challenge for all teachers but couldn’t understand how this one was fair to the kids who behave. Thanks again for everyones input.
"She will learn more by politely discussing/challenging the teacher herself "
As the kid who did this at school, what she'll learn is that the teacher will be disinterested, ignore her argument and be patronising. Which in itself is a valuable life lesson. Kids need to learn that teachers are just people with all the defects that come with that.
Ironic really, by attempting to gain discipline the teacher loses all respect.
Result ! Congrats OP. I hope other parents of good kids do the same so that you daugher isn't disciminated against by either teachers or fellow pupils. It's really important that other parents do the same.
So when Year 6 leave class today they will march out in unison apart from the OP's daughter who will be running ahead like a cheerleader 🙂
In fact I'd expalin to your daughter that she risks bullying if she stops the stupid walk but other kids are forced to continue so she'd be better to keep doing it until other parents get their kids off the hook too. At least she'll know she doesn't have to.
The school should know they are creating potentially an even bigger problem. I can't decide if they're idiots or arseholes.
She should walk out like this....
failing to see how walking out with your hands behind your back is an issue. The police walk about like that.
^^^ Because it is being used as a punishment. The OPs daughter didn't misbehave so doesn't see why she should be punished.
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Maybe instead of talking to the school to "challenge" the policy, why not ask them what's happening, listen to what they have to say with an open mind, and then decide whether it's something that you should "challenge". Even if you disagree with how it was handled, is it really a serious enough issue that you want to risk a conflict between parents and the teacher? It's possible that this wasn't the best way to deal with things, but getting mixed up in a battle between kids and teachers is more likely to make things worse than better IMO. If you start quoting rules and laws, then you're encouraging the teachers and school to enforce rules and laws rigidly without any commonsense, which generally just leads to a death spiral.
commonsense
If you had any of that you'd never become a headmaster.
you see already though you have my back up a bit. It’s all about going to see the school and put YOUR point of view across and hope they take YOUR views on board
As opposed to putting across someone else's point of view?
The interpretation is it's being used as a punishment. If it is that somebody has badly interpreted "fantastic walking" then that's a different issue. There is a big push for the "pivotal" approach which is something schools are looking at if you don't know what it is or haven't heard of it that's fine I guess there's plenty of things in your profession I don't understand but just because you've been to school and might have kids at school in no way makes you and expert. In the same way I won't tell an IT bod how to set up something on an internal system just because I own a laptop.
Whether pivotal is just another fad is a different discussion.
Rather than following another ridiculous fad UK teaching would do better to recruit better teachers, train them better, drop the militaristic approach and perhaps take inspiration from systems that don't fail their children.
Collective punishment to make the trouble makers unpopular not looked up to?
Yep, we've been seeing this with our eldest, the whole class gets punnishments due to the actions of a couple of kids, apparently the other week PE was called off for the whole class because a couple were being little shits, break-times have also been missed (I'm not sure that's supposed to happen). My wife went in and kicked off as she couldn't even see how the half punnishments fit the offence and it's just making our daughter resent the teacer/school as much as the disruptive kids...
The problem I have with it is that it could well start putting her off school if it gets much worse. Not a week goes by without us being told (admittedly 2nd hand) about yet another bit of collective punishment imposed because of a small handful of kids or even topics not completely covered/lessons half abandoned due to poor behaviour, which I find very concerning...
She's one of the higher attaining kids in the class, we get glowing reports and gushing parents evenings, she's a nerd at heart (this morning she was explaining multiplication of fractions to me rather than eating her breakfast), but she takes knockbacks and dissapproval hard, and if she sees herself as enduring punishment for other's actions despite doing her best and behaving I can see her interest in doing well at school slipping as the rewards/encouragement just don't materialise.
We've spoken to her teacher and while I understand the issues, you've got one teacher and a couple of TA's wrangling 30 odd kids, so the time and resources it takes to deal one on one, with a couple of disruptive kids isn't really there, it doesn't really change the fact that my daughter's education and her motivation ends up suffering as a result...
The thing is if the goal is to persuade the group to ostricise/bully an already troubled kid into complying it sort of cuts directly against all the other school policies, it probably isn't addressing the real root cause of most behaviour issues and it's potentially teaching my daughter and her peers to start forming cliques and exclude others, which I don't want either...
As opposed to putting across someone else’s point of view?
Top selective quoting there, well done.
I clearly said that there needs to be some listening done too.
I sympathise Cookeaa, cliques mean:
When you look for the causes of bullying the authorities will wrongly blame factors outside of schools, some people in Croydon need a wake up call:
https://www.croydon.gov.uk/education/parentalsupport/bullying
When they should be looking inwards to where the bullying takes place and where the kids learn to bully. Teachers are bullied by their hierarchy, they enforce a system that is based on bullying and some kids end up becoming bullies too.
Good kids should be encouraged and supported, not bullied into doing silly walks.
teaching would do better to recruit better teachers
With all due respect, none, that's quite a sweeping statement, to say I'm not good enough to do my job.
teaching would do better to recruit better teachers
Pay more so that better candidates are attracted to the profession?
given the current Santa Cruz marketing I'm seeing on the side bar, have you through about talking to the teacher about forming a Ministry of Silly Walks?
I think we should all take up fantastic walking. I have no idea what it is but it sounds fantastic.
I've no idea if you're a good or bad teacher, how good you are in your discipline, how much training you've had or whatever, onehundredidiot. You might be good enough to do your job, you might not. What I can say with certainty is that compared to more successful systems the British teaching profession has lower barriers to entry, and significantly lower levels of training.
You can walk in off the street with a degree and just start teaching in a UK school. The pay will be crap (so a lot of potentially good teachers with the vocation will not do it as they can't afford to) and you'll either sink or swim. The main criteria for being a UK teacher is being able to survive in the classroom and survive on the salery. Most everywhere else you'll need masters II, get lots of training and getting a place will be competeive because pay and conditions are good.
So do you belong to the generation that did a PGCE, teaching practices and got sent on training courses or did you scrape a degree and just walk into the job - which still wouldn't necessarily make you a poor teacher, but it would make it less likely you'd be a good one who realises silly walk collective punishments are a no, no.
I'm well place to compare teaching systems in Britain, France and Germany. British teachers are underpaid, bullied by their hierarchy, undertrained and undervalued by society.
You can walk in off the street with a degree and just start teaching in a UK school.
Becoming a qualified teacher
To teach in England and Wales you need to gain QTS. You will obtain this on an ITT programme, which could be school or university-based and takes approximately one year to complete. Once you have finished the course, assuming that you meet the standards, you will be awarded QTS and become a newly qualified teacher (NQT) ready to undertake your induction year.Scottish teachers need a degree and an Initial Teacher Education (ITE) qualification. Upon completion of your ITE you'll need to undergo a probationary teaching year. To find out more, see teaching in Scotland.
To become a teacher in Northern Ireland you'll need to complete an undergraduate Bachelor of Education (BEd) or a one-year Postgraduate Certificate in Education (PGCE). If you want to teach in country, but trained outside Northern Ireland, you'll need to get your qualifications approved by the General Teaching Council for Northern Ireland (GTCNI). Learn more about teaching in Northern Ireland.
Applications for most teacher training programmes in England and Wales are made through UCAS Teacher Training (UTT), in the autumn prior to starting training. To find out more, see routes into teaching. You'll also submit your application for teacher training in Scotland through UCAS.
In Northern Ireland, applications are made directly to individual institutions. Financial support is available including bursaries for some subjects depending on degree grade. To see what's available in Wales take a look at Discover Teaching. For Northern Ireland, see NI Direct Initial Teacher Training.
(edit)
So your expertise in the British system isn't good enough for you to understand that there is no British system.
Secondary in Scotland need a degree, post grad (currently investigating whether it needs to go from pgde to masters).
(Another edit)
The programme lasts two years. You’re placed into a school straight away in September and gain Qualified Teacher Status in your first year and complete your Newly Qualified Teacher placement in year two.
I know someone who did it. She survived and is now a "fully qualified teacher" who has learned to survive in the system. It's not about pedagogy, it's about survival teaching.
Surely kids deserve teachers who aren't mainly just trying to hang on in there under attack from kids, parents and their hierarchy. Perhaps if they were better paid, worked less hours, were given are little more responsibility and scope, and training and lived a little less in fear they'd teach a bit better.