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I would like to hear the hive’s opinions on something that has recently started at my daughters Primary School. I noticed on Friday that she and the rest of her class walked out of school with their hands held behind their backs. It appers that to tackle the poor behaviour of a handful of kids in her class, the whole class have been forced to walk everywhere at school in this way. My daughter has said that she’s uncomfortable with this and both myself and her Mom fully support her. SWWSTD?
Why is she uncomfortable? Don’t her arms meet up?
Collective punishment to make the trouble makers unpopular not looked up to?
She’s uncomfortable because the whole school are looking at her and making cruel remarks. She’s never been any touble at school and all her teachers have commended her for this.
Collective punishment to make the trouble makers unpopular not looked up to?
Most likely but this isn't this SAS this is a Childs developing mind. Primary school kids have very self centred brains with little or no "grey area", I'd say this was issue.
Could be worse, I assume she's still getting pudding?
What are the trouble kids doing? If it’s not arm related I’m failing to see how making the whole class walk around like a general in a war movie is going to help.
Trouble earlier today......
Definitely still getting pudding.😀 The question I asked myself, why should she suffer and be forced to do something she doesn’t want to at school?
Collective punishment to make the trouble makers unpopular not looked up to?
I remember when I was at secondary school the whole class having to stay after school on several occasions to punish a few trouble makers so probably just using that logic. Although hands behind the back seems a bit lame, surely they could have thought of something better?
I'm sure the Stw answer is go in red faced with outrage and demand to see the head to find out if they've done a full risk assessment on children walking around with hands behind their back as it's a potential health & safety risk in the event of tripping.
It could be a child's face at risk!
I’d back the school up, there’s obviously a good reason for it. If she’s done nothing wrong then she can hold her head up high knowing she is ok.
The class has been suffering as a result of poor behaviour from a group of 6 children. General disruption in class and some horseplay when walking roound school.
It sounds to me as if her teacher has read the book called "When the Adults Change Everything Changes" by Paul Dix which encourages a positive consistent approach by adults to behaviour in schools. In it, he speaks about a school which tackled poor behaviour by introducing "Fantastic Walking" which sounds very much as you describe. However, the key point is that everyone in the school needs to be doing it (including the teachers), not just one class.
Why does she think everyone is looking at her. If everyone is doing it then she's just one of the crowd.
Sounds like she's getting a bit precious and simply doesn't like doing what she's told.
But then these days kids are the new Gods and must never be upset in any way.
I'd like to see the schools risk assessment of this, and the response when one of the pupils face plants with hands behind backs...
Walked out to parents with their hands behind their backs. A brave or stupid teacher to do that. I assume you'll do the obvious and raise the issue, asking what justifies imposing humiliating punishments on a whole class and why this punishment was chosen as it falls well outside the normal range of school disciplinary measures. I assume there are other parents hanging around, what do they think?
It sounds to me as if her teacher has read the book called “When the Adults Change Everything Changes” by Paul Dix
The next cupid stunt from SLT that mentions that book to me is going to get shoved up their arse.....
Anyway op it sounds a bit weird to me. I'd suggest a quiet word with the head if they are "on the gate" just say you want to back the school but are a bit concerned as your child doesn't like it and hasnt done anything wrong that you know of.
It’ll stop them pissing about with their phones.
All pedestrians should be made to walk like this.
Not all the kids are having to do it, just her class, year 6 and all the younger kids are laughing at them. If her behaviour was bad the I wouldn’t have any issue, I’m all for unconditional positive regard when dealing with poor behaviour gut don’t see anything positive in this.
I used to dislike collective punishment, and it never really improved things. I'd not be happy with that as a parent. I'd want to school instead to deal with the troublemakers.
The other parents have mixed views hence my post. At first I thought that when I was at school we were often made to suffer for the few gut after seeing how genuinely unhappy she was i began to question how this could affect her. As I’ve already said, her behaviour at school has always been good so in this, the 21st century should we be treating kids like it’s the 1970’s?
The question I asked myself, why should she suffer and be forced to do something she doesn’t want to at school?
Collective punishment isnt it.
Punish 1 (6) punish all. Isn’t this designed so that the “good kids” gang up on the trouble makers and that in turn makes them feel ostracised from the group?
Its a bit 60’s the punishment profile, but can’t see anything inherently “wrong” with it.
She’ll grow to ignore criticism from younger children and then apply that to elders too, good life skills right there.
All the best, sure you’ll question the school about it won’t you.
Aye sounds Paul Dix to me. We're being pivoted at the moment but it's a...., Well it's not being terribly successful.
Also, she is at primary school, that's young. When I experienced collective punishment, we must have been around 14.
If she is unhappy that tells you all you need to know.
It's not a punishment if it is "pivotal" then it's about getting everyone to act in a positive way but as a_a says it should be everyone.
And it should be one of many positive ways to change behaviour.
Bad implementation of a terrible idea.
Troublemakers are disruptors and just like terrorists, they thrive on seeing large groups of people altering behavior due to their actions. The kids messing around will take it as vindication that they can piss around with the status quo and get off scott free with the masses taking the 'blame'. If anything this strengthens a small minority and credits them with more power than they thought they had.
"Collective punishment isnt it."
Schools are weird places. Some teachers seem to think human rights are suspended at the door, and the most mad get promoted to head teacher.
Presumably next time one of the teachers gets a speeding ticket we should fine the whole staffroom.
Still bitter after forty years - yes - so don't tell me there's no lasting psychological damage!
So you have few potential allies. I'm against collective punishments as both an ex-teacher and a parent.
As a parent I only put my suit on once to contest a collective punishment. I'd noted a few lines from:
http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/
I'd noted a few points of law. And everything went just fine. Punishment cancelled.
However, when junior was the source of the trouble the teachers got my backing.
Get your daughter to get a gang of the "good" kids together, give the "bad" kids a kicking and send the happy slapping videos to the teacher's BEBO account as proof that they've dealt with the issue the teachers can't. Teach will appreciate the issue being solved without them having to do anything difficult or awkward personally and will suspend punishment and reward the vigilantes with biscuits and glasses of milk.
I support the school.... we had different issues at my kids' secondary, but still behaviour and disruption type stuff - which is the biggest time thief from learning in classes.
The new (hardline) head brought in strict behavioural standards, uniform and so on at the start of this year (Sept 18) and inevitably there were a few arguments, parents shouting about individual's rights, detentions handed out for not having the right equipment and so on. And the head stuck with it, and the governors backed her up, as did the majority of the parents.
Behaviour is 100% better in basically one term, the moaners have dropped off, and the school is getting on with teaching rather than managing disruptors.
It's tough on those that are basically conforming and err occasionally, as opposed to those who persistently and deliberately offend. But the idea of collective behaviour is a fair one. Talk to your daughter about it, about why it's being done and tell her to get her and her friends to stand up to the 6 that have made this happen as well.
Thanks Edukator, that link is most useful. The more i think about it, i feel the school are wrong about this and will make an appointment to challenge it.
sarawak
Member
Why does she think everyone is looking at her. If everyone is doing it then she’s just one of the crowd.
Sounds like she’s getting a bit precious and simply doesn’t like doing what she’s told.
But then these days kids are the new Gods and must never be upset in any way.
Says he grown up getting wound up by the disciplining of someone else's kid by a teacher.
I’d like to see the schools risk assessment of this, and the response when one of the pupils face plants with hands behind backs…
Are they Ziptied ?? 😂
As a child of tachers the hardest thing teachers face nowadays is entitled parents telling them how to do their jobs. Its a tiny minor thing. Get over it. Back the teachers who are simply trying to do their job
Sounds less like Dix and more like Michaela to me. But, like Dix, that needs to be whole school to be effective. If it's just one class it does sound like collective punishment which as a teacher I really dislike. I'd question it but wouldn't necessarily recommend an all guns blazing approach initially.
To be fair tj, that was my initial thinking but on reflection I believe that the individuals disrupting lessons should be punished and those who behave given just respect.
Job description doesn't include dishing out gratuitous humiliating punishments on kids who've done no wrong, TJ. Schools should be a reflection of society in which people have rights and obligations. To command respect you have to be seen to be fair, if not you're using fear rather than respect. Then there's the idea that with a collective punishment you're forcing kids into solidarity with wrong doers, when you should really be encouraging kids to dissociate themselves from inappropriate behaviour. The teacher is creating a situation where he/she is in conflict with all the kids not just the ones misbehaving.
What happens if she refuses to comply? We had a teacher (albeit in high school) who tried to implement a no putting hands in pockets rule. God knows why, he must’ve suffered some pocket based trauma in earlier life. I told him if he was willing to by me trousers sans pockets I’d comply, otherwise tough chunks.
"As a child of tachers the hardest thing teachers face nowadays is entitled parents telling them how to do their jobs. Its a tiny minor thing. Get over it. Back the teachers who are simply trying to do their job"
Yeah! we should go back to hitting them on the hand with a ruler...never did me any harm
Absolute nonsense TJ (and sarawak). Its pretty easy to spot those in the thread that have no experience of either teaching or having children of their own.
Just like any walk of life, there are good, bad and indifferent teachers and there are good and indifferent teachers having a bad day. Most parents I know are extremely supportive of all but one of the above.
My mum was a head teacher but she would be the first to admit that teaching (and the world) has moved on a million miles from when she left in the 90's - its a totally different ball game now and so much of what worked then has no place today.
It is a bit weird when you think about it. That sort of shit would never fly in adult life - unless in prison perhaps.
Lazy teacher-ing IMO. More about controlling the kids than giving them any useful life lesson.
When I was at Wootton Bassett school in the 70s our cross country team came last at the county champs. Mr Tanner beasted the rest of the year in the rain in skins for the next 2 PE lessons. It was genuinely like that daft SAS programme. Wished we’d just had hands behind back.
Children are adaptable.
Back the teachers who are simply trying to do their job
Whilst I'd be the first to say this I do think collective punishment is wrong and this example is wrong. Its not a wade in shouting and screaming thing but a quiet word to express concern is justified imo.
I don't think anyone's calling for the return of corporal punishment for minor trangressions, as we had at my school when I was a kid. In fact, I'm not sure what's being requested is even a punishment. If the kids all are asked to walk in a certain way it just makes it easier to identify those that are causing trouble.
Again from my daughter's school.
The kids used to pile into rooms at the start of lessons, take ages to get to desks, lots of noise, and the teacher would take some time to get the class to order. At a guess it was costing 2 mins/lesson, often way more. 2 mins x 6 lessons per day, 5 days per week x 36 weeks per year - that's 36 hours of lost teaching. 6 whole days.
Now they have to line up outside the class in silence. Easy to spot who isn't. The class then files in in silence and takes their seats. Nothing happens until the teacher has introduced the lesson / task for the day.
My daughter moaned they were being treated like 'they were in prison' yet at the same time moaned about disruption in lessons. Parents complained about the lack of individuality. But one term later, the only ones still moaning are the ones regularly in trouble for still pissing about and their parents.
Look, I have mixed feelings too..... treating people as individuals is desirable but individuality is still possible while being well behaved, the trouble is that letting kids decide where the boundary is just doesn't work that well.
Lining up is a rule that applies to everyone. This holding hands behind back lark is a punishment applied to a minority some of whom have done nothing wrong. A quiet word as a_a suggests with some well thought out arguments.
If all kids are asked to walk in a certain way then you call the place a military acedemy.
I disagree - it's applied to the whole class. It's primary school, so broadly the class is a single unit, and while it might be better applied then to the whole school, it's not unreasonable - IMHO