Collective mind – what is reasonable for a length of time to be able to hold a child back after school w/o informing parents?

Disclaimer – our 4th year at the school, discipline has been going downhill, new Head appointed end of last year and they are adopting an iron fist to cracking down on it (easier to do that and then soften than the other way). I AM FULLY SUPPORTIVE OF THE APPROACH.

The parents’ FB page (I KNOW!! but it is useful for some stuff) has gone crazy a few times over some of the new policies and I’ve stuck my head above the parapet and suggested that rather than the parents railing against the new regime, they need to get behind the school while they make their mark. It hasn’t always gone down well……

So; seems like one of the more prolific parent dissenter’s daughters has been given a 30 minute detention today (crime as yet unknown) which i don’t think is unreasonable but once again the FB page is white hot with all the usual vitriol. Thoughts? Is 30 mins too long? Do I suggest there’s two sides to any story and I’d like to hear the school’s side of events before the mob light their pitchforks? Or is this a ‘discretion / valour’ moment?

(when i was a kid I’d shit myself if I got a detention, not for the detention but for the bollocking I’d get off my parents. And on the rare occasion my Dtr has had one, my attitude is broadly the same – tough, you probably deserved it, and if you didn’t then use it as a key life lesson, that often things aren’t fair but they make the rules)

30 mins isn’t long enough.

My two high school age  kids could easily claim to  lose half an hour dawdling home and we would be none the wiser.

It needs to be long enough that the parents should be asking where they are.

An hour would be more like it.

If the complaining parents managed and disciplined their daughter as much as spending time on facebook, maybe she would behave better. Kids behaviour/discipline is much worse now than when I was a kid. And as you say treat it as a life lesson otherwise.

Ours were an hour, but were never handed out on the day – they were always a subsequent day to the offence.

30mins is first offence, well first detention at my Son’s school. You’d get that for forgetting homework more than once.

60 for repeat offences.

1-day exclusion for fighting (usually).

Comes with an automated e-mail notification.

My son’s school brought in Real to Learnt last year. He thinks it’s a great idea (and so do we).

He’s had one detention – for forgetting his PE kit.  30mins. We get a text from the school.

Point out they should shut up and deal with their daughters behavior rather than go off on one.

If my daughter were to get detention there would be trouble and it wouldn’t be directed at the school!

To be honest in this day and age I`m surprised any kids that are given detention actually bother to turn up for it. After all what will happen if they don’t? Double detention?

30mins is nothing, used to be 1 hr in my day.

My only issue as a parent would be if the detention was on the same day the offence happened ie being held back after school. It would be better with a note home to parents saying they were being kept back the next day (allowing arrangements to be made).

I collect my kids from 2 different schools at 2 different times, sometimes then rushing off to work etc. Where we live there are no buses home and it is too far/dangerous to walk. So if I was sitting outside the school for 30 mins with no prior warning it would cause me a few issues, but let me know in advance and i would make alternative arrangements and fully support the detention.

From my experiences of working in a school that was in special measures and being turned around, we had a serious crackdown, setting many detentions. Headteacher luckily had an iron will and did not bend to pressure and kept them up.

Number of detentions soon went down when most parents became supportive. The ones that moaned were usually the ones who were useless at dealing with the behaviour of their kids, and took no responsibility for actions.

If behaviour is an issue, it will only turn around if parents are on board with behaviour policy. Well done for sticking your neck out though OP on social media. If more parents were like you, we’d have less behaviour issues in school.

The school should have a clear policy, so you can see the time they will spend after school for certain actions. It should escalate up for repeat offenders. Have they shared the new behaviour policy at all OP?

Point out they should shut up and deal with their daughters behavior rather than go off on one.

If the complaining parents managed and disciplined their daughter as much as spending time on facebook, maybe she would behave better.

Yep – that’s pretty much what I’ve said in the past over the changes to policy; what lesson is it when the parental response to some of these (deliberately) strict edicts is ‘that’s ridiculous, my Chanel won’t be doing that’

examples:  school bags should be rucksack / messenger style, not fashion style handbags.

Shirts should be top buttoned and ties done up (teachers discretion on allowing ties to be removed during lessons in hot weather

Pupils to stand when a teacher enters the classroom

– it’s culture today I’m afraid; no respect for authority, and the apple seldom falls far from the tree.

To be honest in this day and age I`m surprised any kids that are given detention actually bother to turn up for it. After all what will happen if they don’t? Double detention?

Frankly since the advent of league tables School aren’t afraid to exclude kids for surprisingly little.

The 30 mins detentions are so that the teachers are still home in time for Countdown

@ Mr Whyte

Yes, quite clearly at end of last term so everyone had chance the read, assimilate and adopt. Or spend all summer moaning about it.

Best comment so far was:

“I’m reliably informed that the year 8 girls are going to riot over the new school uniform (basically skirt length)”

well we’re 3 weeks into term now and I’ve not yet noticed the police water cannon. I’d love to know her ‘reliable’ source 😉

I went to a school that didn’t use detention (as far as I know none in my local authority area did).  Therefore I find the idea rather odd.  As I understand it, my son’s school issues detentions either at lunchtime, or on a day later in the week but then writes to the parents to tell them.  I find the idea of immediate punishment without a “fair hearing” rather archaic, and fundamentally flawed.  I’d question the power of a school to detain a child after the school day.  Presumably pupils who travel on a school bus can’t be subject to such regimes?  What if they have a pre-arranged expectation to meet a younger sibling to escort them home? How does the school avoid creating anxiety in parents when children are “overdue”?  Having gone to a school which seemed to manage without capital punishment or detention to hold things together (in challenging big city – probably about middle of the table school) I wonder why a new head thinks that is the best way to exert control.   Having said all that, my general rule with whingers on Facebook groups like that is to take the opposite position!

https://youtu.be/XeQUlr4Xc3s

Having said all that, my general rule with whingers on Facebook groups like that is to take the opposite position!

By ‘Facebook groups’, I think you meant ‘the internet’

My sons secondary school is 1 hr on an appointed day (never the same day) I fully support this, as my adopted son quite frequently has them, and needs the discipline

With regards to not respecting authority nowadays; can anyone blame them? I mean look at who’s in charge or the news when there’s a big debate on in parliament and they are (in the main) a pure disgrace and certainly don’t attract any respect in my opinion.

Therefore I don’t think they should respect authority for the sake of it. If it was one of mine, I’d want to know the backstory to the detention, from BOTH SIDES before I agreed to it.

I find the idea of immediate punishment without a “fair hearing” rather archaic, and fundamentally flawed.

In general yes….. but school discipline is not quite the same as ‘the real world’, and for minor misdemeanors such as ‘forgetting’ your PE kit, answering back, chewing gum in class, and so on you can hardly convene a disciplinary panel and conduct a trial. Absolutely for major stuff leading to exclusions and expulsions.

I see what you say that some schools seem to manage without such draconian control, but as said, the discipline has got bad and you can’t claw it back bit by bit, you need a total reset and then relax once the behaviour shows that it can be relaxed.

I’d want to know the backstory to the detention, from BOTH SIDES before I agreed to it.

Schools aren’t the judicial system or a democracy.

And a 30min detention for fighting, ‘forgetting’ to do work, or forgetting equipment is nothing compared to the real world is it?  The real world is a criminal record or losing your job!

I’ll I’d support the idea as long as I was made aware beforehand. I do find detention odd though. I remember my head of year in 5th form issuing me with a detention for failing to attend an I.H class. I simply stated that if I failed to attend the class, why on earth would I attend a detention for not attending said class.

On the whole “back in my day, knew respect blah, blah” front, I’ve always believed respect is earned and never automatically given. Just because someone is in a position of authority doesn’t mean they’re not being a dick.

DT (as we called them) used to be a bit of a pain.  Up to an hour writing some lines out.  But a “Satdee” was more of a deterrent.  Rock up to school on Saturday morning at 9 in full uniform and be stuck in till 10:30.  That was in the swinging and permissive 60s.

Still, it was usually a choice between a Saturday or 6 of the best – as a caning on a bent-over arse was called.

Easy, bring back ‘The Whack’ (cane)

It would save loads of time.

To be honest in this day and age I`m surprised any kids that are given detention actually bother to turn up for it. After all what will happen if they don’t? Double detention?

For the most part kids don’t give a f about their education and would rather be off doing something else especially in mid teens.

Having seen a few teachers have full breakdowns from the abuse from parents who don’t believe their child can be wrong. I can’t see a way forward unless authority is given back.. I never got to say that my teachers were disrespecting me… mind you they could give you detention till 7pm on a Saturday.. not turning up to detention normally meant not turning up on Monday as you were excluded…

must have been shit for the teachers who had to supervise detention…

 it’s culture today I’m afraid; no respect for authority, and the apple seldom falls far from the tree.

If the school thinks that respect is demonstrated through standing up and doing up a tie, then its priorities are seriously awry.

Anyway, I don’t think that schools should be detaining children without informing parents first. Mine certainly didn’t, despite being full of petty rules.

Most schools will have a policy that contact home is made for after school d/t’s. Some have automated texts, some email and some phone calls or even just a note in diary. You’d be amazed how many parents wont answer if the call comes from school or give the school an incorrect email address or a dead phone number.

I have a pastoral role within a high school, unless it was due to a serious incident I wouldn’t hold a pupil longer than 10 minutes within making contact with parents/carers.

When detentions are issued a text message is sent to the number 1 contact to inform them.

If the school thinks that respect is demonstrated through standing up and doing up a tie, then its priorities are seriously awry.

Sighs……

It’s part of a whole package of measures. There is, in some quarters at least, a lack of respect for teachers and the staff in general, and so they are addressing everything from minor stuff like standing up and uniform to bullying. These are just examples of the kind of stuff that some of the FB parents are openly abusive about / that they ‘threatened’ they’d tell their kids to ignore.

I’ve always believed respect is earned

Yep – and by going into teaching, you automatically are given the credit that enables you to require reasonable orders are followed. You don’t have to re-earn it with every kid.

So – in your opinion – whether its priorities are wrong or not, if the school decides its policy is that kids stand up when a teacher enters a room, and a kid refuses, either because they refuse or their Mum has told them to. No issue, because it’s a dumb idea anyway? Or an example of how **** up the balance of respect has become that a simple request becomes a major problem that escalates.

Just stand up FFS. It’s the school rules!

It’s part of a whole package of measures.

An utterly pointless part that is a distraction from what the school should be focussing on.

No issue, because it’s a dumb idea anyway? Or an example of how **** up the balance of respect has become that a simple request becomes a major problem that escalates.

If you think that children standing demonstrates respect (rather than grudging compliance because the alternative is a punishment) then I think you’re very naïve.

If you think that children standing demonstrates respect (rather than grudging compliance because the alternative is a punishment) then I think you’re very naïve.

Grudging compliance is life. Be it not driving like a dick, turning up to work/appointments on time or just following the social niceties.

Is understanding that there are some rules in life to follow and that adults are in charge not children such a bad thing?

You have an environment where children can learn rules and what happens if you break them and the worst thing to happen is you have to stay late or get shouted at.

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Having gone to a school which seemed to manage without capital punishment or detention to hold things together (in challenging big city – probably about middle of the table school)

</p><p>Wait, when did the BR Act get passed???</p><p></p><p>As for ties and such, utter pish. By all means turn up smartly and appropriately dressed but there is no need for such a proscriptive uniform policy.</p>

If you think that children standing demonstrates respect

No, children standing doesn’t demonstrate respect. Following the rules demonstrates respect for the authority of the Head Teacher / Governing Body, and if one of those rules is having your tie done up and standing when a teacher / adult enters the room, so be it.

Same day detention sounds a bit much. I can think of a few kids that I teach where that could cause serious problems. Giving parents/carers (or sometimes the child) an option of which weekday to do the detention seems more sensible to me.

As for the school rules, they are often set far beyond what is really necessary to provide a bit of a buffer. For example, when I taught in a school for excluded kids we were VERY strict about them bringing chewing gum into school. The kids would come up with all kinds of wacky capers to smuggle in gum. The thing was, a lot of the kids had access to much worse at home, but they were far too busy bringing in chewing gum.

@poly…..really glad you went to a school without capital punishment 🙂

By ‘Facebook groups’, I think you meant ‘the internet’

Actually whingers in real life too – but Facebook groups do seem to attract a particular type of individual who is devoid of rational thought or reason.

Schools aren’t the judicial system or a democracy.

But they are (mostly) instruments of the state, and so should be applying the principles of the Human Rights Act, as well as one would hope the UN Rights of the Child.  Those don’t preclude discipline or punishment – they do however expect there to be fairness, and means of redress.

And a 30min detention for fighting, ‘forgetting’ to do work, or forgetting equipment is nothing compared to the real world is it?  The real world is a criminal record or losing your job!

Fighting is a criminal offence so I’d expect something a bit more serious than the punishment for forgetting to do something.  I’m not even suggesting that a punishment is not justified for “forgetting” stuff – but should the punishment be decided by the teacher who is pissed off?  What if we let the police determine guilt and set the punishment too.  It becomes very easy to stigmatise the pupil who is always in trouble (or forgive the one who is usually very good), or perhaps to be less tolerant of the smelly kid, the asian kid, the girl who wears a longer skirt, the kid who is a bit thick (perhaps because of some learning issues), the kid who’s brother you taught and was a dick, etc.

You don’t have to re-earn it with every kid.

Really – even if it might be expected, I think we all remember teachers who got less respect than others – so if its not earned it can certainly be lost.  Weird stuff like making people stand up is probably the sort of thing that causes it – its not a courtroom, modern teaching is a cooperative relationship.

For the most part kids don’t give a f about their education and would rather be off doing something else especially in mid teens.

Actually that’s really not me experience, certainly some don’t, but from what I see they actually are engaged – probably by not being made to stand up everytime a teacher walks into a room.  Way more that I was ever engaged with understanding what I was learning or why when I was at school – and I was one of the “good” ones.  Why is that?  Perhaps because teaching has evolved from someone standing at the front shouting about stuff to more of a collaborative process with the ‘learners’.

Having seen a few teachers have full breakdowns from the abuse from parents who don’t believe their child can be wrong.

Yes – could probably do with educating teachers better on handling parents and difficult discussions.  There are many careers where you have to deal with difficult people.

Pupils to stand when a teacher enters the classroom

Lol. I don’t have kids but almost wish I did when I read that, they’d be kneeling like a black NFL payer in protest at that shite. What a load of bollocks, what kind of power trip are these teachers on?

Following the rules demonstrates respect for the authority of the Head Teacher / Governing Body, and if one of those rules is having your tie done up and standing when a teacher / adult enters the room, so be it.

No, it demonstrates grudging compliance, and serves no useful purpose either at school, or in adult life. Other than learning that some teachers are on a power trip.

Grudging compliance is life. Be it not driving like a dick, turning up to work/appointments on time or just following the social niceties.

There is a purpose to punctuality and safe driving.

Totally against detention, and many of the other authoritarian bollocks schools do. I have bitter experience of the unfair ‘justice’ of teachers. As good as they are, teachers are the worst people to be meting out ‘punishments’. Remove troublemakers from lessons if required to minimise disruption, and exclude if disruptive behaviour continues, but outside of that they have no right to detain pupils or confiscate property (phones for example) outside of school hours.

And from an idelogical point of view, I don’t really want my kids to spend their days being scared of whatever consequences might befall them for honest mistakes like forgetting books, homework, bits of PE kit, or having to blindly conform to whatever bullshit rule the megolamaniac discipline secretary thought of this week. It’s a bloody school not a military training facility.