MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
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Not kick the incapacitated subject in the head. I think a different officer already has a taser in the suspect.
It was a rhetorical question framed to make people consider the circumstances a little more before passing judgement, however as you’ve answered it by something you “think” might have happened then avoided the actual question of what he SHOULD do… have another go - tell people what he should’ve done.
He’s lying face down on the floor, you’ll know much better than me but is a kick to the head of a prone suspect a trained method of detention?
No but watching on the internet I’ve got no idea the fear that officer is feeling. That whole situation went downhill very quickly, meaning they could very well have been fearing for their life. Find yourself in that situation and then tell me how coherent your thoughts were; tell me how you weren’t scared to death and used whatever home office approved techniques you could remember from your 2 days per year training package.
Again, the suspect is tased, prone and motionless
No he isn’t; you can see he starts moving again. We don’t how or why, he might be about to say sorry mate I was out of order, or he may have been about to start swinging again. We don’t know; It is the perception of that officer that is key here, but if he has an honestly held belief that the prostrate male was about to unleash violence again, then what is he to do.
Look, I cannot say what I would do in those circumstances. It went horribly wrong horribly quick and no amount of training gets a police officer used to that; because it’s very rare and impossible to cover in a lesson.
In the UK the Public rely on the Police but equally the Police rely on the Public. Peel had it right many years ago when he wrote words to the effect: The public are the police & the police are the public, the only distinction being that the Police are paid to maintain public order as a professional role in society”. This is at the very core of the principles of policing by consent.
It confers an equal level of responsibility on the public to maintain law and order because it is in the overall benefit to society that we do this.
This seems to have been forgotten over time, and here we are.
I certainly won’t hire him now.
Well he got within three and a half thousand votes of representing 80 odd thousand people in Westminster so that's a small positive.
Yeah I think a reprimand at best.
If you freeze frame the vid, you can see as the thug in the sky blue top is going for the officers pistol, his hand is right there as the pair hit the deck and roll.
The officer gets back to his feet, and sky blue is tazed, but rolls that arm under his body... the officer who kicked him in the head doesn't know sky blue has been tazed at this point, of if he has his gun, so he immedialty kicks him in the head.
Bare in mind the officer doesn't have the luxury of taking stock of his surroundings, and seeing what he's just seen, I think his duty to protect the public and his colleagues fully justifies his actions.
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“Scrote”, I think, is pretty judgemental.
Normal people don't attack other people in a plane, normal people don't go full onto into smashing cops in the face. Normal people in that situation might turn around a bit angrily when accosted from behind by armed police but immediately upon realising who they are dealing with with become submissive. Only people used to using violence would do so in a situation like that.
I think there's more than enough evidence now to make some sort of judgment about the perpetrators in this case, so calling them scrotes is judgmental, and in my opinion valid, would you prefer feral, thugs? Their behaviour was at extreme odds as to what we expect in our society, and then they doubled down with the social media.
Turns out their equally unappealing solicitor is already being investigated by the law society for instigating a racist and unfounded social media pile on in Birmingham.
Pondo (and others crticising the officer). First released video and most people would entirely agree with you. Now we have more context (maybe not all but enough), you're entirely wrong to keep harping on about a defenceless 'victim'.
You talk of protocol and higher standards, how do you think these officers are trained? Do you think they get meatheads off the street to smack them and their colleagues in the face and head multiple times and then get them to write a paper about correct reactions?! These officers were defending themselves from a cowardly attack (how many punches were thrown to the back of the officers heads) and would have been dazed and fearful for their own safety.
The "what me gov?" bloke on the bench that looked innocent as pie in the first video had just seconds earlier beat the crap out of police officers by reigning in cowardly punches from behind. They were dealt with instinctively, text books mean nothing in those situations.
Normal people don’t attack other people in a plane
I thought they weren't on a plane and it was their mum had been getting racially abused on a flight?
The reason for the arrest was because these two chaps decided to deal with the folk dishing out the racist abuse themselves. If the video is anything to go by they probably dealt with the racist abusers quite efficiently.
If that is what actually happened I can understand why they would have gone straight back to swinging when the police attempted to arrest them. Adrenaline was probably still very high and anyone who has ever found themselves in a fight knows that it doesn't take much to set you off again.
If anything I think this episode shows that using armed officers to arrest people who are unarmed isn't the best idea. Unless you are going to go the American route of standing well back and threatening to shoot them if they don't do exactly what you say. Or just shoot them.
I've never understood why airports need so many people wandering around with machine guns. In my opinion this episode perfectly illustrates why it's a bad idea.
If anything I think this episode shows that using armed officers to arrest people who are unarmed isn’t the best idea.
Maybe not in a perfect, polite society, but this is in an airport.. are you suggesting airports shouldn't have armed police?
I’ve never understood why airports need so many people wandering around with machine guns.
Are you new to planet earth? also they were not machine guns, they were holstered pistols. As others have said, if you try that crap in many other countries, you'd be lucky to walk away from it.
It was a rhetorical question framed to make people consider the circumstances a little more before passing judgement, however as you’ve answered it by something you “think” might have happened then avoided the actual question of what he SHOULD do… have another go – tell people what he should’ve done.
Well, for about five seconds the suspect stopped fighting, went rigid, motionless and fell over, so it seems reasonable to assume he was tased. The only judgement I'm making is whether or not the officer was justified in kicking the suspect in the head - I think no, you may disagree and that's fine.
No he isn’t; you can see he starts moving again.
Again, are people watching a different video? For clarity, I'm referring to the CCTV video most recently posted to the thread -
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3gekjyq3j7o
Maybe it's my eyes but for me, from the moment the suspect is face down on the ground, the only movement I see is a slump, presumably his body relaxing as the taser is turned off and a turn of his head to the right. What other movement are you seeing?
I totally get the fear thing, I really do, I know I can't get anywhere near putting myself in his plase, and I have both empathy and understanding for his reaction. But the fact remains - it was the wrong reaction.
Ok, I guess I am new to planet earth. Why do airports need so many people with guns?
Seems to me an airport is one of those places you are highly unlikely to come across a criminal with a gun compared to literally anywhere else.
I’ve never understood why airports need so many people wandering around with machine guns. In my opinion this episode perfectly illustrates why it’s a bad idea.
why? No one got shot.
Even if they’d not been armed they would still have arrested the people fighting, who would then have started fighting with the police.
if you start a fight in such a public place, you are unlikely to get away with it. If they wanted to hit the sons of the racism woman, they should have played it a bit smarter.
Did this all happen in arrivals or departures?
a turn of his head to the right
Given what he's just done, if I'm at the end of his wrath, I wouldn't feel safe until he was unconscious or in handcuffs
A man whose instant reaction to the police was extreme violence
If you freeze frame the vid, you can see as the thug in the sky blue top is going for the officers pistol, his hand is right there as the pair hit the deck and roll.
At that point the suspect has fallen to the floor because he's been tased, he couldn't have made a controlled movement if he'd wanted to - he attacked the same officer from behind and had a very genuine opportunity to reach for his sidearm and did not.
The officer gets back to his feet, and sky blue is tazed, but rolls that arm under his body… the officer who kicked him in the head doesn’t know sky blue has been tazed at this point, of if he has his gun, so he immedialty kicks him in the head.
The taser that was fired was right by his head and clicking away as he scrambled away, stood up and drew down with his own taser. Both of the suspect's arms were by his sides and he did not "immediately" kick the suspect in the head.
These officers will all have had bodycams, right? I guess the investigation will learn still more from them.
why? No one got shot
But apparently the only reason was because the policeman managed to get a boot to the guys head.
Others have said blue tracksuit guy was reaching for the gun just as he was getting tasered.
Personally I wouldn't like to see armed police breaking up drunken fights on a Saturday night. Seems like that could get a bit too interesting.
To paraphrase Andy Burnham, this was a shitshow. The only question is was it a shitshow because procedures weren't followed or was it because the procedures aren't fit for purpose.
I definitely have sympathy for the copper who put the boot in. I think the question that really needs to be answered is how did he find himself in that situation.
... you’re entirely wrong to keep harping on about a defenceless ‘victim’.
My argument is and always has been that the officer was wrong to kick the suspect in the head. Apologies if you think I'm arguing something different - I was under the impression initially that the suspects had nothing to do with the altercation, but the CCTV footage released yesterday clearly shows that not to be the case and I haven't argued it since.
I'm getting fed up of saying I have empathy and understanding for the officer, I just think he was wrong.
At that point the suspect has fallen to the floor because he’s been tased, he couldn’t have made a controlled movement if he’d wanted to
The officer couldn't have known that, all he knows is his colleagues more than have thier hands full, and he might be on his own, he's been punched in the back of the head a few times, and they both wrestled to the floor with the assailants hand on his waist/holster.
So he gets up and boots him one as soon as he's able... what else you have him do?
I’m pretty certain the threat was still there when the man was on the floor! If he’s launched an attack against armed police, I’m guessing he would think nothing of attempting to take one of the officers down from the floor. The police reaction seems justified in this situation.
Given what he’s just done, if I’m at the end of his wrath, I wouldn’t feel safe until he was unconscious or in handcuffs
Sound - then cuff him. He's pretty motionless anyway but if you think he's going to be a problem, tase him again, or kneel on the back of his neck and he ain't going nowhere. The officer did indeed kneel on his back after kicking him, then left him uncuffed to go and get his brother on the floor. Gave him a kick as the brother was lying down, too.
I thought they weren’t on a plane and it was their mum had been getting racially abused on a flight?
I think you might be right there, however we have no details of the alleged incident or that it was racially motivated. Given the subsequent behaviour trying to turn the police incident into a racist incident would make me question how reliable anything the family say. Regardless of what happened on the plane that does not not justify the brothers attacking another member of the public, there's no ambiguity to that.
I can understand why they would have gone straight back to swinging when the police attempted to arrest them. Adrenaline was probably still very high and anyone who has ever found themselves in a fight knows that it doesn’t take much to set you off again.
Oh that's OK then, explains it all.....that's zero excuse for what they did.
Please stop trying to justify the indefensible. The actions of the officer are less clear cut and nowhere near the magnitude of what the instigators of all this did.
The officer couldn’t have known that, all he knows is his colleagues more than have thier hands full, and he might be on his own, he’s been punched in the back of the head a few times, and they both wrestled to the floor with the assailants hand on his waist/holster.
So he gets up and boots him one as soon as he’s able… what else you have him do?
It's about five seconds from the "attempted grab" to the hoof in the face and for most of that the officer is on his feet pointing his taser at the suspect. By no means did he boot him as soon as he was able, and he doesn't go for the arm that made the "attempted grab".
Sound – then cuff him.
Ah yes, because their initial response to the police was extremely compliant
I’m pretty certain the threat was still there when the man was on the floor! If he’s launched an attack against armed police, I’m guessing he would think nothing of attempting to take one of the officers down from the floor. The police reaction seems justified in this situation
I've made this point more than once but the suspect made no move whilst on the floor that could be seen as threatening, he had already been tased once and the officer who kicked him also had his taser aimed at him.
And for both sides of the argument, remember we're sitting here rewatching the incidents in slow motion, playing out scenarios in our heads and pretending we'd be as cool, calm and collected as James Bond in that situation
I think arguing about the minutia of second by second decisions is kind of pointless.
I think the bigger question is, was this the correct way to go about arresting someone in this kind of situation?
I'd argue that by the time the guy got booted in the head, so many other things had already gone seriously wrong that it's almost an irrelevancy.
The question is, is this the way armed police normally go about arresting someone who has just been in a fight and is presumably still primed to start swinging, not to mention the fact he's apparently got some mates with him?
As others have said, there seems to have been a genuine risk of police officers losing their weapons. To me that's the most serious issue by far. The guy getting booted in the head is a side effect of the real issue which is armed police completely losing control of the situation.
The question is, is this the way armed police normally go about arresting someone who has just been in a fight
It looks as though they were at the pay station for the car park, therefore about to leave the area. Likely the armed police were closest to them at that time and had to respond rather than wait for an unarmed officer
Ah yes, because their initial response to the police was extremely compliant
He's lying face down in the aftermath of a good tasering. When's a better time? 🙂
One thought that occurs is that the brother goes from full-on swinging in a fury to compliant, sits down and puts his hands on his head in moments - I do wonder if they knew they were police.
And for both sides of the argument, remember we’re sitting here rewatching the incidents in slow motion, playing out scenarios in our heads and pretending we’d be as cool, calm and collected as James Bond in that situation
Totally agree.
And for both sides of the argument, remember we’re sitting here rewatching the incidents in slow motion, playing out scenarios in our heads and pretending we’d be as cool, calm and collected as James Bond in that situation
I’d be curled up in a ball, crying
Oh that’s OK then, explains it all…..that’s zero excuse for what they did.
Please stop trying to justify the indefensible. The actions of the officer are less clear cut and nowhere near the magnitude of what the instigators of all this did.
I think what you want me to be saying is not what I'm actually saying. Sorry about that.
It's not a question of who is morally justified. It's a question of how armed police managed to lose control of the situation so completely.
Was it a failure if individual officers or was it a failure of procedures?
Taking a step back and looking at the entire incident, can anyone really say the police managed it properly?
The question is then how did things go so wrong and what should be done differently in the future. However, I suspect everyone is going to end up focussing on whether the guy deserved a boot to the head or not.
Well, for about five seconds the suspect stopped fighting, went rigid, motionless and fell over, so it seems reasonable to assume he was tased. The only judgement I’m making is whether or not the officer was justified in kicking the suspect in the head – I think no, you may disagree and that’s fine.
The point I’m trying to make to you is that you’re making a judgement, telling us what you wouldn’t do, telling us what you think is justified in those circumstances whilst only being party to what is no doubt a very small snippet of information.
But the fact remains – it was the wrong reaction.
No, the fact doesn’t remain. You’re presenting your opinion and judgements as fact, but they’re not facts. He made A reaction; whether that was the correct reaction or not remains to be seen. You’ve got an opinion, that’s fine but stop acting like your opinions are facts.
Race clearly had no part in it but he decided to stir it and the local community
Given the fact the thing that kicked all this off was someone's mum getting racially abused on a flight (allegedly), I think it's too early to say race has nothing to do with it.
While I'm often skeptical when people are too quick to claim racist motives I'm equally skeptical of people who seem a bit too keen on dismissing any potentially racist motives.
The question is then how did things go so wrong and what should be done differently in the future.
In retrospect, given the small number of officers that were immidiatley on the scene, and given the way the passengers in question then acted...
..the only way to have contained it would have been to taze/batter the lot of them before trying to arrest them.
Race clearly had no part in it
I've deliberately avoided mentioning race but just as a matter of interest, how have you made that determination?
The point I’m trying to make to you is that you’re making a judgement, telling us what you wouldn’t do, telling us what you think is justified in those circumstances whilst only being party to what is no doubt a very small snippet of information.
I fully recognise that point.
No, the fact doesn’t remain.... He made A reaction; whether that was the correct reaction or not remains to be seen.
Fair.
You’ve got an opinion, that’s fine but stop acting like your opinions are facts.
Happy to do that when everyone else does. 😉
In retrospect, given the small number of officers that were immidiatley on the scene, and given the way the passengers in question then acted…
..the only way to have contained it would have been to taze/batter the lot of them before trying to arrest them.
Yes, I'm sure the only two options available were to get into a massive brawl or just shoot them.
Battering them seems to be a non-starter.
Given the fact the thing that kicked all this off was someone’s mum getting racially abused on a flight (allegedly), I think it’s too early to say race has nothing to do with it.
Do you even know who made the "racially abused" comment? I certainly don't and if you do find out I would be genuinely interested in knowing.
As far as I can work out all four arrested were Asian so the chances are that the other party were also Asian. I don't know how common racists on flights from ****stan are but I suspect that they are probably less common than racists on flights from Majorca.
So imo it is too early to say that race probably had something to do with it
He’s using the Pondo defence, apparently the police kick is they thing to focus on.
What else is the thread about? No kick, no thread.
Holy cow, that's another level of crazy. It could still get more complicated if there's a further twist with the previous row. Still loads of questions for the policing of that whole situation for me but I don't think people will be losing sleep if Rooney gets away with that one.
He will be a hero in the eyes of many as will the fury brothers when they go down.
So imo it is too early to say that race probably had something to do with it
I agree. What I was saying is it's too early to state categorically that racism had nothing to do with it.
It's too early to really say much of anything categorically yet.
Except that the arrest went badly wrong. I don't think that's up for debate.
Ernieit was in some of the earlier reporting which I can't find now. There was an alleged racist incident on the plane involving the mum followed by some dogdems on the ground with luggage trollies before Mum sent the boys in.
Police are asking for footage of the incident on the plane & baggage hall along with a violent disturbance in Starbucks in T2 as well the event at the ticket machine.
We know what to do next time - send in Pondo.
Whilst being battered and watching his female colleagues get punched in the face he can calmly explain that he means no harm and promise not to kick anyone in the head. I'm sure it will work out fine.
As far as I can work out all four arrested were Asian so the chances are that the other party were also Asian. I don’t know how common racists on flights from ****stan are but I suspect that they are probably less common than racists on flights from Majorca.
The mum was coming from ****stan but the flight was from Doha.
Having spent a fair amount of time amongst expats in the middle east I can 100% believe it's possible she got some racist abuse.
But at this point we know nothing. We don't even know if the alleged racist got arrested. Or if they even existed.
The accusations of racism were being levelled specifically at the police, alongside words like ‘unprovoked’ that accompanied the initial video by the shyster lawyer.
This was very deliberate from them and designed to provoke the reaction it got… people out on the streets protesting, which could very easily have turned a lot darker very quickly
Turns out there was nothing remotely racist or unprovoked about it. It was a pair of incredibly violent nobheads assaulting police officers.
The last thing we need in places like Rochdale, where tensions have been simmering for years, is idiots like them and their lawyer deliberately fanning the flames to make out this is some George Floyd type situation when in reality it’s just a pair of thugs being a pair of thugs. Full stop.
I’m hoping that the police are looking at charging the lawyer - who’s absence is now very noticeable - with incitement or at the very least he’s struck off
Well said binners : thumbs up emoji
The accusations of racism were being levelled specifically at the police
Agreed but there are also other specific accusations that the mother was the victim of racist abuse from other passengers.
I don't know what the source of that is.....an eyewitness?
On the face of it it would appear that the two parties in the altercation were both Asian.
Agreed but there are also other specific accusations that the mother was the victim of racist abuse from other passengers.
I don’t know what the source of that is…..an eyewitness?
On the face of it it would appear that the two parties in the altercation were both Asian.
I don't think any of that info is in the public domain.. there is suggestion (from Andy Burnhams quotes) that 'something happened' on the plane, which then clearly escalated significantly between being on the plane, and what we've seen.
I'd imagine the airline/staff will need to comment, and other passengers, and there will be security footage from arrivals security CCTV, passport control, baggage collection area etc, which I guess the airport authorities are not making public as it's an ongoing investigation.
Also, a random musing, once you are landed but are still 'air-side' (as in before passport control), are the laws different?, as you are still not technically in the UK (or whatever country you have landed in) before you've been through passport control, so that might add a layer of consideration if the ruckus started on the plane and continued all the way through to the car park.
Agreed but there are also other specific accusations that the mother was the victim of racist abuse from other passengers.
So ****ing what? I’m sure that we’ve all been subjected to personal abuse of one sort or another. How many of us end up escalating that to the point of punching a female police officer full on in the face, breaking her nose?
They’re a pair of thugs, and there is absolutely no justification whatsoever for either their assaults on the police or the subsequent whipping up of an entirely contrived, manufactured and completely baseless accusation of racism against the police
Its the last bit that really pisses me off more than anything, just because of its shameless opportunistic cynicism. You’re playing with fire when you start deliberately whipping up racial tension to suit your own ends and there are potentially very serious real world repercussions for that kind of shit
So ****ing what?
So that's the reference to racism which I believe BruceWee was talking about.
No need to get stroppy, calm down. You Manchester types are proper hotheads. No wonder things are always kicking off
No need to get stroppy, calm down. You Manchester types are proper hotheads. No wonder things are always kicking off
We’ve had riots in Leeds last week with a racial element to them, we’ve had riots in Oldham not to long back for the same reasons. Places like Rochdale are simmering and tense for all manner of reasons. For some prick of a lawyer to start deliberately inflaming that to make a name for himself and try and get a couple of Uber-violent thugs off the hook for assaulting the police is the very height of cynical opportunism.
They clearly didn’t give a flying **** about the consequences, which could very easily have been far, far worse. Everything these two and their dodgy lawyer have done just undermines community cohesion and the already difficult job of policing
If a copper did actually racially abuse somebody in Rochdale tomorrow and it wasn’t on camera and that person made a complaint, do you think they’d be believed, given what’s happened over the last couple of days?
They needed to be more like this guy
Personally I wouldn’t like to see armed police breaking up drunken fights on a Saturday night. Seems like that could get a bit too interesting.
Now I’m with you.
Specifically mentions there were racist comments in the baggage hall.
On the face of it it would appear that the two parties in the altercation were both Asian.
Which absolutely doesn't rule out racism.
Looks like the family are now back peddling furiously and have ditched the knob head lawyer.
Family of kicked man concerned for hurt officers
Places like Rochdale are simmering and tense for all manner of reasons
And there's far too many using it as an opportunity to up their own profile, George Galloway for example.
10 pages in and despite the nature of the topic the thread is still open, no flounces or bans. Is this the new world we live in under Labour…….just you all wait until Trump gets in, things will get back to normal around here.
Personally I wouldn’t like to see armed police breaking up drunken fights on a Saturday night. Seems like that could get a bit too interesting.
Armed officers break up fights every day of the week. They are regular Police officers most of the time, only deployed specifically as armed officers in specific instances.
The fact that people don't seem to know this suggests it isn't an issue after all.
And there’s far too many using it as an opportunity to up their own profile, George Galloway for example
Exactly my point. But all these shysters are doing is sowing division to further their own agenda’s and ego’s. None offer any solutions
I live 5 miles out of Rochdale and used to ride through it every day on my commute. It’s a place that seems as racially divided as apartheid South Africa and has some areas where you can literally smell the poverty.
This seems to have made it a magnet for snake oil salesmen who are just in it for themselves and to further their own agendas, while inflaming an already difficult situation. They’ve certainly no interest in solutions to its problems and are just making things worse
From the Beeb "Mr Yakoob is no longer acting for the family, which has instructed a new lawyer."
Finally looked at the video.
That big guy hitting the little wpc could easily have killed her. Who hits a woman like that?
Also you shouldn’t kick a man when he’s down but I have little sympathy for him.
We know what to do next time – send in Pondo.
Cant we(not I obviously) wrap that. Trolling members who have a different opinion to yourself.
.
But my my, isn't this the thread of 'what if's' and some of the comments wouldnt be out of place if this was the daily mail comments section.
I always thought this was a bit of a leftie place, but it certainly appears i was wrong there.
.
Was the officer out of order for kicking him in the head - Absolutely
Was it a result of anger from being bashed about - Absolutely
Was the officer at risk of further escalation from the bloke on the ground - Possibly
But was he at that point in control of the situation - Absolutely
Should the officer be sacked - No
Did the police handle the initial meeting wrongly - Yes
Is the lawyer attempting to stir up racial hate - Without a doubt (In fact i think he should be struck off for such behaviour)
Should STW members be verbally abused for their difference of opinion - Clearly not, so stop doing it
.
I personally think the police officer kicked him in the face out of anger. He clearly lost the plod.
He clearly lost the plod.
Puntastic
Armed officers break up fights every day of the week. They are regular Police officers most of the time, only deployed specifically as armed officers in specific instances.
The fact that people don’t seem to know this suggests it isn’t an issue after all.
So police with guns regularly find themselves rolling around on the floor with suspects and no idea if the folk they are rolling around with are trying to get hold of their weapon or not?
I'm not an expert but if it were me I'd maybe have a look at how officers were being trained and see if I couldn't figure out a way of not having that happen.
If you look at the history of Yakoob in the run up to the GE its a bit obvious he loves to stir the pot up
It’s nothing to do with training but 100% to do with resourcing. The Police do not have enough resources to have armed Police as some sort of army in waiting.
I was an AFO for almost 18 years and would routinely get deployed to all manner of incidents that had nothing to do with an armed threat. In fact, because we were the only ones to carry Taser for quite a long time we would be sent to every incident that had a hint of violence.
Domestic incident were by far the worst and saw more instances of people trying to snatch weapons than any other.
First & foremost AFOs are Police Officers and they do what the public expect of them as Police Officers.
Be interesting to hear if the way the officer went about trying to arrest the blue tracksuit guy is how you would have done it, mildred?
To me, going into the middle of a group like that and grabbing someone seems a bit foolhardy and risks the kind of escalation we ended up seeing.
going into the middle of a group like that
It was 2 males and their mother Vs 4 cops. I don't believe they expected what was about to occur. Unless by group you meant that the area in general was full of people of a similar ethnic background? I don't believe the surrounding people were connected to the antagonists at all.
Was the officer at risk of further escalation from the bloke on the ground – Possibly
Probably not instantly but I wouldn't turn my back on him, all the same
But was he at that point in control of the situation – Absolutely
"In control" is pushing your luck a bit, given how rapidly he lost control initially - and that was with 3 fit colleagues around him. There wasn't only that lad to worry about. The kicky copper had (I think) been attacked from behind twice by that point. How would he know that there were no other potential attackers in the noisy group around him, or that the initial attacker who was sitting with his hands on his head wouldn't join in again?
Anyhow, they'll likely all have their day in court so we'll get "there" in the end
It was 2 males and their mother Vs 4 cops. I don’t believe they expected what was about to occur. Unless by group you meant that the area in general was full of people of a similar ethnic background?
At the risk of sounding racist, yes. How did the police officer know that he was dealing with two guys and their mother and none of the other dozen or so people in the immediate vicinity were in any way connected? You'll often find quite large groups at airports to meet a single person.
To me, the kick isn't the important part. It's just the culmination of the actions of an officer who did not seem to be acting sensibly and put himself, his colleagues, and the general public at risk for no obvious reason.
The question is, was he just shit at his job or was he not acting rationally for some reason.
Or is there yet more information still to come to light that will explain it? I'd say we still only have part of the entire story.
It's definitely too early to say racism had anything to do with it. However, it's also too early to say racism had nothing to do with it.
While people who are too quick to call racism have an agenda and/or some preconceived notions about the police, I think it's fair to say anyone who is categorically ruling out racism as a factor may also have an agenda and/or some preconceived notions.
Like Andy Burnham said, I think we need to wait for the entire story.
Edit. Not joining this personal opinion fest when I, and nobody else, really knows enough.
Like Andy Burnham said, I think we need to wait for the entire story.
Which is obviously the sensible thing to do, but 10 pages in, none of us are very good at it ?
Post withdrawn, context of original quote unclear
@dyna-ti, for clarity, are these your opinions or your summary of the thread so far?
Was the officer out of order for kicking him in the head – Absolutely
Was it a result of anger from being bashed about – Absolutely
Was the officer at risk of further escalation from the bloke on the ground – Possibly
But was he at that point in control of the situation – Absolutely
Should the officer be sacked – No
Did the police handle the initial meeting wrongly – Yes
Sorry, cant tell if you're being humerous or not lol
But for the sake of clarity, just my thoughts on it.
Which is obviously the sensible thing to do, but 10 pages in, none of us are very good at it ?
Once this official STW enquiry is concluded and the results forwarded to the authorities, it can be rubber-stamped and officially released.Until then we need to be patient.
Was the officer out of order for kicking him in the head – Absolutely
Was it a result of anger from being bashed about – Absolutely
Was the officer at risk of further escalation from the bloke on the ground – Possibly
But was he at that point in control of the situation – Absolutely
Should the officer be sacked – No
Did the police handle the initial meeting wrongly – Yes
Can you not see the contradictions in that short selection from one post?
According to your analysis the officer wrongly kicked someone in the head, but shouldn't be sacked?
He was possibly at risk of further escalation, but absolutely in control of the situation?
And you can tell from what that the officer handled the initial meeting wrongly and that he was angry?
I don't think there being contradictions necessarily mean it's not accurate - I think he was wrong to deliver the kick to the head, I don't believe he should automatically be sacked for it, should a compelling case for his genuine belief of necessity be made.
Given the instant escalation, the impression it gives is that the initial meeting was handled incorrectly, and his subsequent actions (kicking the guy who was sitting on the bench in the leg as he was in the process of complying, and pepper-spraying the guy who was filming) are also suggestive of his state of mind, I believe. I think he was angry - that doesn't mean he wasn't also scared, unsure of who was a threat or worried about his colleagues, but I think his kicks, stamps and pepper spraying were chiefly acts of retribution out of anger.