Yeah that's how I read it too. Wasn't really sure why the Guardian was being criticised. I actually thought it was quite a good article, which is why I posted a link to it
Edit : To be fair the Guardian also asked him directly a question which they quoted both the question and the answer, they weren't simply reporting other interviews he had given
Listening to Times radio the sequence of events appears to be
A lady is accusing a fellow passenger racist comments on the flight and deliberately bashing her with a trolley in baggage reclaim. She has then identified the passenger to her sons once she cleared border control. Sometime between that point and when the published video starts the must have been some form of incident that has ended up with the 3 injured officers.
A former armed officer was being interviewed about it. He was interesting listening explaining how you are trained to control the situation and to protect your firearms at almost any cost to stop an attacker getting hold of them and the risk they use them. He also explained how the radio automatically opens up all communications to and from all officers so you hav3 that agoing into your ear as well as what your actually hearing yourself
I would be interested to know why the lady didn’t speak to the police or the airline staff about her allegations and why her sons decided it was for them to go and sort it out. Perhaps that will become clearer as the investigation continues
I sort of agree, but only because there’s a nuance between questioning someone (which one way or another will have happened) and arresting someone which starts the clock for either releasing them or charging them, which could make things worse.
The far greater point for me, hence my comments about demonstrations etc, is that arrest(s) isn't likely at this stage. You'd expect a solicitor to understand that, however, he's demanded arrests
When that doesn't happen you'll see an understandable reaction amongst the public and he'll be at the heart of it.
<cynic>He'll also be nicely positioned to pick up more clients</cynic>
I would be interested to know why the lady didn’t speak to the police or the airline staff about her allegations and why her sons decided it was for them to go and sort it out. Perhaps that will become clearer as the investigation continues
If the trolley ramming incident took place the first persons she would presumably have seen would have been her two sons. And is there any evidence they wanted to sort it out and pursue it? They claim there was a bit of altercation after which as they were walking away they were set upon by the police.
The truth is that at this point no one knows the back story. What appears to be certain though is that a police officer kicked someone in the face, I don't think anyone is disputing that
The truth is that at this point no one knows the back story. What appears to be certain though is that a police officer kicked someone in the face, I don’t think anyone is disputing that
And that someone attacked armed police officers to the point that 3 were taken to hospital and one has a broken nose
I knew it was claimed that the uncle of the two arrested is a serving police officer but apparently a third brother of the two brothers is also a serving police officer, so not a family which you would expect to be hostile towards the police.
I can assure you that familial connections are no predictor of hostility towards police
And that someone attacked armed police officers to the point that 3 were taken to hospital and one has a broken nose
Not, it seems likely, the one who got kicked in the head.
And that someone attacked armed police officers to the point that 3 were taken to hospital and one has a broken nose
How do we know that for certain? I know that a police officer kicked someone in the face because I have seen the video, no one seems to be doubting its authenticity. I haven't seen any videos of someone attacking three police officers.
I would expect an airport with armed police permanently present and extremely high security to be completely covered by CCTV, I would expect everything to have been recorded, including the alleged trolley ramming incident
I am sure that the truth will emerge, at least I hope so. We just need to be patient
I can assure you that familial connections are no predictor of hostility towards police
Which is why I used the word "expect"
If the true the third brother being a copper does make the two other brothers hostility towards the police seem unlikely
Which is why I used the word “expect”
I'm not having a go, Ernst, I'm giving you the benefit of 40+ years experience. And in other families, rather than my own 🙂
It does leave me very wobbled headed. Armed response officers must be just about the highest trained officers there are. Combine that with having enough about them to appreciate their were in just about the most witnessed and videoed location imaginable, to have that loss of control is pretty hard to fathom. Even if you had just witnessed a colleague getting seriously injured you'd think you could hold it together and would have been trained to hold it together and not give out a reprisal punishment. I could sort of understand it more if the guy was still free and an excessive use of force than was the clinical theoretical minimum was used 'in the heat of the moment'. But not when he was already restrained.
Further footage and witness statements etc are going to give context and maybe explain how everyone involved got as heated as they clearly did (it takes a heated person to injure police officers and no right thinking officer would do what that one did) but it's not going to excuse their behaviour. It's never going to make that video better.
I'm sure it was reported yesterday that this all kicked off after a fight between members of the public in which the police were not involved, they were called as a result of that. What Chrismac has posted corroborates that.
Looks like the lady had a some sort of poor interaction with another passenger, told her sons about who then decided to sort out the other passenger Police were called, son's escalated the situation and attacked the officers. Police rarely goes boots in first, particularly not somewhere like Manchester airport. Looks like the selective video is from the end of of an extended incident caused and escalated by the people on the floor. Doesn't excuse the brutality of the police office but does explain the tension by that point. Far from being innocent victims in this the people arrested are the main cause of all this.
The police officer made a serious error of judgement which is now being used to over shadow the horrendous behaviour of the originators of all this. This is now being jumped on by the police haters, dodgy lawyers and racists from Rochdale (it's a very divided community) to grand stand and undermine the police further.
I would expect an airport with armed police permanently present and extremely high security to be completely covered by CCTV, I would expect everything to have been recorded, including the alleged trolley ramming incident
And as Binners pointed out due to all sorts of good regulation that can't be released to social media on a whim. Andy Burnham has seen this video footage and is clearly conflicted by it or I'm sure he would have condemned the policy more openly.
If the true the third brother being a copper does make the two other brothers hostility towards the police seem unlikely
You really don't understand family dynamics do you. It's not unusual for a family member to be ostracised for joining the police.
I am sure that the truth will emerge, at least I hope so. We just need to be patient
this I do agree with.
I could sort of understand it more if the guy was still free
He actually was, he was lying on the floor when he was kicked but if you watch the video properly he was not restrained, after being kicked he moves both his arms and legs away from his body.
You really don’t understand family dynamics do you. It’s not unusual for a family member to be ostracised for joining the police.
I would say that it is unusual for a family member to be ostracised for joining the police, which is obviously the point I was making. An uncle also appears to be a serving police officer.
Apart from apparently understanding family dynamics better than me what makes you confident that it is reasonably common for someone to be ostracised by their family for joining the police?
In my very limited experience of four friends who joined the police none of them were ostracised by their families. In fact one joined the police because his younger brother had.
Far from being innocent victims in this the people arrested are the main cause of all this.
Whilst I agree they're not innocent victims, I can't accept that they are the main cause of this instance of police brutality. That lies with the mindset and lack of control of the officer in question, IMHO.
Looks like the selective video is from the end of of an extended incident caused and escalated by the people on the floor.
I don't know how many times it needs to be pointed out that the two in the video (one kicked in the head, one starts on the bench thrn kicked to the ground) were released without charge. I understand four other people remain under arrest - again, not to pre-judge but it seems likely to me that those are the ones involved in fisticuffs with the police.
Whilst I agree they’re not innocent victims, I can’t accept that they are the main cause of this instance of police brutality. That lies with the mindset and lack of control of the officer in question, IMHO.
This. As a civilian, you break my mates nose and I'm going to stuff you in a wheelie bin, and to **** with the law and consequences.
As a uniformed professional, there are rules that govern the use of force and that force has to be justified. As I said earlier if whilst in the process of trying to allegedly remove a firearm from an officer he'd been booted in the grid, I'd not be too concerned.
This was not that. This was an overreach from an individual trained and empowered by law to use violence of action in the lawful conduct of his duties. Dude lost his composure and escalated to a level that was disproportionate to the threat. Very doubtful further video will change that.
I've spoken to three friends now who are armed officers and all are deeply uncomfortable with the level of force used in that snippet.
Criminal investigation of the copper inbound. Couldn't be any other way, really.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c19ky4z8kjmo
I liked the one about the cheesemakers too
Despite being a (very lapsed) catholic, I was lucky enough never to have experienced the choirboys lament
https://twitter.com/RedCollectiveUK/status/1816410012463341808
That ^^ really doesn't look good.
I wish GMP would release the names of the 4 who were arrested and released on bail. I am seeing shite on social media suggesting that those two brothers (one of which got kicked in the face) assaulted coppers and broke the nose of one.
Since presumably after perusing through all the airport CCTV and police body cams both brothers were released by the police without charges we can safely say that there is no compelling evidence that they assaulted anyone.
^you can't be kicking off like that in an airport though, (the passengers, I mean) I'm not suggesting the kicking in the head incident is reasonable, but as more footage emerges, the more I'm inclined to think teh situation is not quite as cut and dry as police brutality.
But we still don't know the whole picture, So I think Andy Burnham is correct in what he says "“fast-moving and complicated” and not “clear cut”".
[URL= https://images2.imgbox.com/ef/0a/5AlLLjKd_o.jp g" target="_blank">https://images2.imgbox.com/ef/0a/5AlLLjKd_o.jp g"/> [/IMG][/URL]
That ^^ really doesn’t look good.
All I'm getting from that clip is a bunch of knob heads kicking off, in an airport, in front of armed police. That's only going to end one way, and correctly so, they are liucky they didn't get shot, IMO.
That’s only going to end one way, and correctly so, they are liucky they didn’t get shot, IMO.
Okay you think they are lucky that they weren't shot. Other people find the clip somewhat concerning, after doing the rounds on social media that particular clip.has been picked up by the mainstream media, including the Daily Mirror and Sky News.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/fresh-footage-sheds-new-light-33325874
https://news.sky.com/video/what-do-we-know-about-the-manchester-airport-incident-13185171
According to Sky News the copper who uses the pepper spray is the same copper that later kicks the guy in the face and stamps on his head, although I don't know how they can be sure of that
Okay you think they are lucky that they weren’t shot. Other people find the clip somewhat concerning
I actually don't find it that concerning... people (as in members of the public) shouldn't be allowed to act that agressivley in an airport, of all places.
Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not suggesting the kicking in the head of someone prone is in any way justified, when other techniques available such as wrestling pin holds, etc. are available, but we can't see the wider angle in those clips and if there was a danger of 'the mob' taking a gun from one of the officers...
..who were clearly split up trying to restrain various individuals, and unable to back each other up, so they must have all been in an extreme protection mode.
Remember this is in an airport! Not your typical friday night at whetherspoons. Some of the members of the public in the videos were expressing very intimidating body language, despite the fact they had tazers pointed at them by armed police...
I actually don’t find it that concerning… people (as in members of the public) shouldn’t be allowed to act that agressivley in an airport, of all places.
What in the clip being discussed did you find the most aggressive act?
Yeah, the way those two lads were aggressively holding their phones to aggressively record the police whilst they innocently punched an old woman in the face triggered me no end.
When retired senior police officers state that the police action was disproportionate I immediately think "iT's WoKe GOrN MAD" too.
The bit where a bunch of knob heads are fronting off/ starting some trouble, against armed police in an airport.
Please share that clip.
Again no full clips but that’s interesting to see some men not complying with what the Police were asking. IMO even from that snippet of vid they deserved to be dealt with appropriately ie made to comply with force (that doesn’t include being kicked in the head)
People have very short memories, it’s not long back that airports were being targeted by people with bombs, even hospitals, and lack of compliance is quite rightly going to get these Police on high alert
It is frustrating that because the Police have to do these things right they have to not comment for now or go on the interweb wth other videos etc
Accept cookies or pay to view without any Daily Mirror plus associated partners cookies on board . No thanks.
That second video isn’t good. I’m not seeing any aggressive behaviour from those lads. Just confusion and asking questions. Looks a bit tense but that’s par for the course when stress kicks in surely. Pepper spray seemed excessive. I’m still withholding judgment until everything is known though.
I would hope that 'high alert' actually involved some professionalism of some sort. I can't imagine ' high alert' training involved that carnage. Do you really think that's who you want dealing with high security situations.
I'm all for sitting on the fence but those clips show some horrendous policing regardless of what went on.
^this.
Stress testing is a key part of the conditioning of individuals who are required to work in high risk/threat, dynamic, and fluid environments so they can remain controlled, measured and respond appropriately/lawfully.
People are fallible and some degree of error or mistake has to be expected, but there are limits to that.
It's not beyond the realms of possibility that further down the pipeline there's a degree of accountability that sits with others responsible for the screening & training of individuals as well.
As a case in point a senior officer was sacked about bullshitting his military CV, so as much as this fella has questions to answer about his actions, the system should also be scrutinised to ensure it's selecting the right people and preparing and conditioning them to a level that is robust and practicable for the role they're required to fulfil.
Again no full clips but that’s interesting to see some men not complying with what the Police were asking.
What were they asking?
IMO even from that snippet of vid they deserved to be dealt with appropriately ie made to comply with force (that doesn’t include being kicked in the head)
Pepper spray in the face?
People have very short memories, it’s not long back that airports were being targeted by people with bombs, even hospitals, and lack of compliance is quite rightly going to get these Police on high alert
What have they done wrong? Not sure that bringing bomb threats into the discussion is helpful - as far as I can see, they were filiming a tense situation. FWIW I believe that the policeman who pepper sprayed the man in the gray top is the same one who kicked the man on the floor.
it’s not long back that airports were being targeted by people with bombs
Airports are still potential targets for terrorists. There is no evidence that police officers in various clips thought they were dealing with terrorist related incidents.
There is no evidence that police officers in various clips thought they were dealing with terrorist
Really ? I saw a group of men not complying with what they were being asked to do. Then at some point Police were attacked. That’s pretty good evidence in itself
What were those men doing that in any way equates it with a terrorist incident?
You honestly believe that the police officers thought they might be dealing with terrorists?
In all the countless stuff I read about what happened in Manchester airport not once do I recall the word terrorist or the term terrorist threat being used
Edit:
Then at some point Police were attacked.
I am not saying it didn't happen but I haven't seen that clip, presumably you have - have you got a link? It would interesting to see how it happened.
I saw a group of men not complying with what they were being asked to do. Then at some point Police were attacked. That’s pretty good evidence in itself
You are Lee Anderson. Where do I claim my prize?
There appears to be a lot of people here who already happy to ignore that 3 armed police officers ended up being taken to hospital, one with a broken nose. What do you want the police to do. Ask them nicely if they want tea a medals and a lift home. This all appears to have started because the kids of the lady they were collecting decided that they would deal with the person she was accusing rather than the police or airport staff.
There appears to be a lot of people here who already happy to ignore that 3 armed police officers ended up being taken to hospital, one with a broken nose.
That's a complete misrepresentation. For the umpteenth time, the altercation does not justify kicking a prone, motionless man in the head, nor pepper spraying an onlooker.
There appears to be a lot of people here who already happy to ignore that 3 armed police officers ended up being taken to hospital, one with a broken nose.
Nope.
This. As a civilian, you break my mates nose and I’m going to stuff you in a wheelie bin, and to **** with the law and consequences.
As a uniformed professional, there are rules that govern the use of force and that force has to be justified. As I said earlier if whilst in the process of trying to allegedly remove a firearm from an officer he’d been booted in the grid, I’d not be too concerned.
This was not that. This was an overreach from an individual trained and empowered by law to use violence of action in the lawful conduct of his duties. Dude lost his composure and escalated to a level that was disproportionate to the threat. Very doubtful further video will change that.
I’ve spoken to three friends now who are armed officers and all are deeply uncomfortable with the level of force used in that snippet.
