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Here we go again...
https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1591099189391654912?t=108WQeD3L255n_69c-ptTw&s=19
UK GDP was slowing and heading negative q4 2019 - q1 2020. And now Jeremy Hunt wants us to believe the Pandemic and the War are to blame for current negative growth.
Anything the Tories now do will exacerbate the contraction unless they spend some government cash.
We're about to get a lesson on how the private sector tanks without the state supporting it.
Good news is that this will likely finish the Tory ideology off - unfortunately taking people with it.
This will make Brexit look like a bump.
Hunt utterly lying about paying covid funding back - ought to be treason.
A single headline that exposes the dysfunction of our economic and political system. Is it just me, or should the 'markets' serve us not the other way round?
As a relatively uninformed layman, that feels exactly right to me, dazh, I thought the same when I saw the headline.
It's like a cult, where everything could be sacrificed to appease "the market".
Utterly depressing.
In a free market economy the markets are the be all and end all. Luckily we can trust those markets to do the right thing, phew.
A single headline that exposes the dysfunction of our economic and political system. Is it just me, or should the ‘markets’ serve us not the other way round?
Nicely put
I agree, but the reality is that 'the market' is just a euphemism really for the wealthy whose fortunes depend on the market - big investors, big company owners, etc. So we have to satisfy the money men to keep them happy otherwise they turn on the people who are nominally in power and replace them with others that will satisfy the markets. They talk about needing to satisfy the markets, it's satisfying their backers, no more and no less.
Unfortunately, because of the way investing has gone (pensions particularly) we're mostly now part of the market too. I'm no stock market player but I have endowments to pay a mortgage and a pension fund, and if there is a massive crash they're all going down as well. I have long enough to retirement that if there is a crash it'll likely come back, but it's looking like putting paid to early payoff / early retirement.
Sunak says higher taxes and spending cuts needed to satisfy international markets
I added one word there that's key to all this. Making those markets work for us requires coordination and action beyond the national level. Anyway, the "markets" aren't demanding yet more austerity... the Conservatives are. The "markets" would rather see increased government investment in infrastructure and training and a plan for free trade.
Hiya,
What bugs me is the fact the media peddles the lines the Government feeds them. We are the first economy in the G7 going into recession our growth is pretty pants in comparison to our European neighbours.I personally cannot see if we do have a recession what will earnestly bring us back to growth. I know this sounds defeatist, but our lack of investment in manufacturing and balancing our economy between services and manufacturing isn't there and dare I say that we are shut off from the markets that we need. I myself have had to move some of my business to Ireland to survive and this shows the key problem, in that to be competitive now and trade freely, that you have to move out of the UK for certain parts. I was hatting to my wife last night and I had to say unless it improves politically and economically in the UK, that I'm not hanging around for an improvement ;-(
I guess the politicians after all of this will say that we are growing again but that will be with an economy that will be smaller ;-(
JeZ
I agree, but the reality is that ‘the market’ is just a euphemism really for the wealthy whose fortunes depend on the market – big investors, big company owners, etc.
I don't think so. For a start, many of us have pensions invested in 'the markets' but also the money that the companies we work for or supply comes from them too. It's all inter-linked. Spooking 'the markets' is what's cost anyone moving a house or remortgaging an extra several hundred quid a month, after all.
30 bil of spook apparently. I see the government aren't talking about that too much
30 bil of spook apparently.
It's a phantom. The fiscal 'hole' doesn't actually exist, and is simply the result of forecasts compared to arbitrary fiscal rules imposed by the govt which could be suspended or changed, just like has happened in Europe. As always, austerity is a political choice, not an economic necessity. We're being ripped off. Again.
https://twitter.com/andyverity/status/1591393862442180610?s=20&t=-yTdVinUQ0J0i503uae7qA
The prime minister and the chancellor have attempted to prepare the ground for a bleak autumn statement, saying that everybody should expect higher taxes
In July when he was making his bid to become Tory Party leader Jeremy Hunt was proposing even bigger tax CUTS than Liz Truss, which he claimed were vital for the wellbeing of the economy.
https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fcontent%2F11e6a49b-ec21-405d-8bf9-8644c4042d4e
The prognosis for the economy now is not that dissimilar to what it was 4 months ago and yet today Jeremy Hunt is claiming that for the wellbeing of the economy taxation must be increased.
What was poison 4 months ago is apparently the cure today.
Which means that Jeremy Hunt was either being completely disingenuous 4 months ago and he really didn't believe that tax cuts were the answer or the Chancellor of the Exchequer frankly hasn't got a clue.
Bearing in mind that within the Tory Party there are currently those who claim that tax increases are vital, whilst there are those who believe that tax cuts are necessary, it is probably fair to claim that the Tories are experiencing their greatest idealogical crises in over 40 years when they decided to abandon the postwar consensus.
The neo-liberal experiment has repeatedly failed and the Tories have reached a point where they no longer have any idea how to deal with the latest crises. Apart from holding desperately to "the market knows best" mantra, something which they surely no longer believe.
Cutting taxes was an honest commitment made by Jeremy Hunt 4 months ago, as increasing taxes is undoubtedly his honest commitment today.
It simply highlights the idealogical crises currently confronting the Tories.
And this Tory idealogical crises provides the best opportunity for opposition parties to reset the agenda and narrative in 40 years.
Tory credibility is currently at an all time low, they are losing the argument - they can't blame the failures of the last 12 years on anyone else. Today opposition parties that offer a credible alternative will find a willing and captive audience among UK voters.
And this Tory idealogical crises provides the best opportunity for opposition parties to reset the agenda and narrative in 40 years.
Judging by Rachel Reeves' comments the labour party don't seem too ready to do that. She's on exactly the same page as the bank of england and treasury. The only difference between labour and the tories is where the tax is coming from and the scale of spending cuts. No one seems to be asking whether it's actually necessary or whether the power of 'the markets' to dictate fiscal and monetary policy should be challenged.
Today opposition parties that offer a credible alternative will find a willing and captive audience among UK voters.
Everyone has a different idea about what "credible" means, in this context.
The only difference between labour and the tories is where the tax is coming from and the scale of spending cuts.
Labour already have plans that propose that the government should borrow (IIRC) £38billion more a year. That additional borrowing is for infrastructure builds and training already announced. Cuts/cancelations announced in the upcoming (is it or isn't it a) budget is likely to increase that gap between Labour and the Conservatives. And we don't even have manifestos and costing reports to do a full comparison yet. The idea that there is little between the two parties on what the government spends, and what is should spend on, doesn't stand up.
kelvin
Full MemberAnyway, the “markets” aren’t demanding yet more austerity… the Conservatives are. The “markets” would rather see increased government investment in infrastructure and training and a plan for free trade.
Ah well that's much more complicated than that. The parts of "the markets" that are functional forward looking companies for the most part want what you say. The parts of "the markets" that are companies and individuals hoping to make smash-and-grab profits in the chaos and holes that austerity creates, not so much. And the parts of "the markets" that are individuals and traders and investment firms that see everything purely as a fun spreadsheet where you make or lose money and coincidentally destroy lives and profitable companies, they're mostly all for austerity because they're invested in nothing and primed to take profit from anything
That additional borrowing is for infrastructure builds and training already announced.
I'm not talking about their previously announced spending/borrowing plans (which will evaporate after the budget), I'm talking about the fiscal 'black hole' and how they're going to deal with it. What they should be doing is making the point that was illustrated in the newnsight clip I posted above, and making the case that the 'the markets' shouldn't have a veto over UK economic policy. They won't though, because bigging up the fiscal 'black hole' is in their short term political interests in that they get to bash the tories with it, and their longer term interests in keeping the super-rich financial elite on side. They claim to be on the side of working people, but their meek acquiescence to neoliberal economic orthodoxy shows the opposite.
I’m talking about the fiscal ‘black hole’ and how they’re going to deal with it.
That "fiscal black hole" is based on the gap between Tory plans and Tory reality. Labour haven't proposed the same reduction in deficit spending... and the Tories shouldn't be. The real "deficit" is in trust that the government know what they are doing... the Tories keep failing to deliver their own agenda. Truss was an extreme version of that, and Hunt/Sunak are being seen as more on top of things than her... but I fully suspect their "plan" once announced will bring little confidence in them long term... better than Truss isn't enough... their party is responsible for a shrinking economy... the wait for them to be gone has begun. One thing I suspect Labour will do, and the Tories would be bonkers not to try and do first, is exclude certain spending from the figures used to calculate the deficit... it's what Brown would be doing right now if he was in Hunt/Sunak's position, and I see nothing in the Labour front bench team to suggest they wouldn't back it. Announcing it right now would do nothing for Labour though.
Lovely interrogation of Sunak on iptv tonight.
Asking him how he can defend 1/4 hospital trusts setting up food banks then him refusing to reveal that he (obviously!) has private health care.
What a ****.
Delicious.
Unsurprisingly support for the Tories collapsed under Liz Truss but despite her placing the bar extremely low for Rishi Sunak support for the Tories has barely improved under his leadership.
The latest opinion poll puts Labour on 50% with the Tories on not much half of that:
https://twitter.com/DeltapollUK/status/1592175611375763457
The previous opinion poll was almost identical:
https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/latest-gb-voting-intention-13-november-2022/
Even at the height of Johnson's self-inflicted problems/scandals the Opposition lead was mostly in single figures, a fairly normal and expected midterm situation.
I find the negative voter reaction that the Tories post-Johnson swing to the right has caused rather reassuring, and a little unexpected, certainly in relation to the scale of it. And it certainly doesn't appear to be a temporary blip.
If Johnson had held on, or come back, they’d be doing no better. The voters have woken up. And that didn’t need Truss and Sunak, Johnson had already been found out by many who lent him their vote in 2019. Trust has been spent.
ernielynch
Free Member
Unsurprisingly support for the Tories collapsed under Liz Truss but despite her placing the bar extremely low for Rishi Sunak support for the Tories has barely improved under his leadership.
Indeed and he's yet to announce some really nasty policy decisions very soon too.
Seeing him run away from the question on having private healthcare makes him appear utterly out of touch with the people finding it increasingly difficult to access NHS services too.
The NHS is only for poor people, is how it will seem to the average voter.
Going to be a hard sell for a hugely wealthy individual to play the "we are all in this together" card.
Going to be a hard sell for a hugely wealthy individual to play the “we are all in this together” card.
Agreed but Rishi Sunak problems go beyond that imo. He appears to be living in the past if he thinks that "difficult decisions" can be sold to UK voters in the way it has been previously by the Tories.
Thatcher managed to blame her "difficult decisions" on the previous Labour government, as did Cameron and Clegg. Who is Sunak going to blame - covid and the Ukraine war? No other G7 country is planning austerity despite all being affected by covid and the Ukraine war.
With his knack of often correctly reading public opinion and concerns' certainly more than many other senior Tory politicians, it is probably that which drove Johnson to warn of the dangers of austerity. Plus maybe also the fact that it simply doesn't achieve the stated aims.
"PM tells world leaders it is vital not to repeat the mistakes of the 2008 crash and entrench inequality"
3 days before Johnson announced his resignation, after months of negative headline and mass resignations of Tory government minister the Labour lead was only 6%
https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/latest-gb-voting-intention-3-july-2022/
Replacing Johnson with someone significantly more right-wing has proved to be a catastrophic disaster for the Tories. They would have struggled to have found a credible contender more left-wing than Johnson but they would imo have undoubtedly benefited by looking to the left of the party.
Perhaps they will do that after they get slaughtered at the next general election. Which could be interesting as the Labour Party always moves significantly to the right after winning a general election.
The Tories would still be in a mess this winter if Johnson had stayed PM. This was always coming. Replacing him hasn’t avoided it. Keeping him wouldn’t have either. This is going to be a hard winter, made worse for many by 12 years of Tory political games and heartlessness.
There’s also the small matter of the B word, the full implications of which are now coming home to roost with a vengeance, and there clearly are no sunny uplands.
All but the hardest of thinking can see that it is an unmitigated disaster which has inflicted huge economic damage, for absolutely no good reason, and is now massively hindering the countries ability to address the problems it faces
But every single person presently sat around the cabinet table is either a Brexit zealot (or has to pretend to be), and has to keep swearing their allegiance to the cult to appease the headbangers who now stuff the Tory party, courtesy of Boris.
So throw that in to the free market ideology they’re also wedded too and it’s no surprise they have no answers other than more austerity.
Asking him how he can defend 1/4 hospital trusts setting up food banks then him refusing to reveal that he (obviously!) has private health care.
Tbh the cost of private health cover is like buying a costa coffee to him.
The missus just picked up a £7m check last week.
He could afford to employ his own full time family doctor.
I think we can comfortably assume that he’s not waiting 2 weeks to see a doc 🙂
Thatcher managed to blame her “difficult decisions” on the previous Labour government, as did Cameron and Clegg. Who is Sunak going to blame
That is why the tories eventually run out of steam. They can only blame Labour for stuff for so long and after 12 years that doesn't cut it anymore and even the pretty stupid voters can work out that it is the tories themselves that are to blame.
Can we have a revolution?
Nope. Nobody can afford the petrol bombs
Nope. Nobody can afford the petrol bombs
20p/l cheaper than diesel now.
Rishi is living this best life.
What cost of living crisis, what nurses strike!?
Why did Justin Trudeau and Rishi Sunak turn up to G20 wearing the same shirts?
I can't access pages 6-7
^^ Sorry, nor can I, I ripped that from the BBC website.lol
I did wonder that myself, the shirts I mean.
Loving the shirts. All the leaders were wearing different colour variations of them. Anyway... £450 shoes...?
Yup apparently the Chinese president and Russian foreign minister both turned up to G20 wearing near identical blue shirts.
I guess perhaps they felt they needed to lighten things up with a bit of a party atmosphere as the Russian attack on Ukraine must have undoubtedly cast a sombre cloud over the G20 summit.
kelvin
Full Member
Loving the shirts. All the leaders were wearing different colour variations of them. Anyway… £450 shoes…?
I'd that what Rishi wears for slumming around in? Semi serious question.lol
All the leaders were wearing different colour variations of them
They'll be Batik shirts supplied by their hosts.
Rishi Sunak wears freebie marketing apparel?
The shirts are part of the event. Shoes model's own.
Good shoes, I have a pair of those in cream.
The shirts are part of the event
LOL!
G20 is the "primary venue for international economic and financial cooperation"
It's not a bleedin festival ! 😂
Shoes probably from Flannels outlet at 60% discount.
The BBC just observed that it’s a mere 55 days since the Truss/Kwatang mini-budget which threw borrowed money around like a pissed sailor on shore leave and today their successors (part of the same government) will impose the total opposite with massive cuts to public services and tax rises across the board
Banana republic
will impose the total opposite
Which politically is extremely positive imo, despite the extremely negative economic consequences for millions of people.
The 55 days span of the political and economic somersault shows the sheer depth of the divisions within the Tory Party.
I have never known the Tories to be more fundamentally divided on direction and ideology than they are today, certainly not since they tore up the postwar consensus. They are ideologically rudderless and the current Tory Chancellor will today be arguing against the very arguments that he was making on taxation 4 months ago.
This is a far worse internal party crisis for the Tories than poll tax crisis which brought about the demise of Margret Thatcher. The poll tax was a crisis of policy and tactic, not idealogical direction.
Furthermore what will be announced today won't solve the problems facing the UK and consequently it won't settled the internal Tory political arguments. The Tories will remind idealogically divided and without a clear agreed and convincing narrative to offer to voters they are absolutely guaranteed to voted out of power in the next two years.
Luckily for Labour the crises within the Tory Party and the UK economy is so severe that all the focus is on the Tory Party. Which means no one is even interested in what alternatives Labour has to offer, let alone in scrutinizing them.
Never will there be a better example of the perceived wisdom that "opposition don't win elections, governments lose them".
If reports about them reducing the help on energy bills are true that's going to be the final nail in the coffin and an enormous open goal for labour. First the tories resisted providing help on soaring bills when Sunak was chancellor. Then under Truss they gave in and did what labour were asking for, now Sunak is back and they're going to remove that help which will increase everyone's bills at a time when interest rates and inflation are making everything else more expensive. You really couldn't make it up. It's like a scorched earth policy to destroy the tories chances at the next election and leave as much of a mess for labour as is possible.
Victoria Atkins (Tory MP) on QT now says that Brexit was 6 years ago and isn't a factor in the current mess we're in
Grab the back of her head and smack it repeatedly into the desk till she says otherwise, hope the rest of the panel and the audience put her right
Did everyone laugh at her??
Hunt has wrong-footed Labour. Reeves agrees with the nonsense about reducing the deficit and he's proposing austerity after the next election. Game, set and match.
on QT
Oof… tried a few minutes, and Kate Andrews is on it gaslighting Britain into making itself poorer… that the BBC (well a programme on the BBC) are still booking that shill as if she is a genuine contributor is depressing.
Reeves agrees with the nonsense about reducing the deficit
She says she agrees with it, because that's what voters will want to hear. Labour have always been linked with fiscal imprudence, and by agreeing with the Tories on the need to appear prudent they are attempting to neutralise that attack vector.
It's got nothing to do with whatever policies will get enacted.
She says that she agrees with deficit reduction when an economy is entering into a recession, which apparently the UK is, but doesn't believe it?
How does that put pressure on the Tories to minimize the effects of the recession on the lives of ordinary working people?
And the more devastating the effect of recession on the lives of ordinary people eg rising unemployment, falling wages and services, etc, the far greater challenge for the next incoming Labour government.
Labour shouldn't be opposing the Tories policy of deficit reduction during a recession simply for altruistic reason but also because the mess they will inherit will be even harder for them to resolve.
Also how does the shadow chancellor backing something which she apparently doesn't believe in inspire confidence in Labour's economic policies?
She says that she agrees with deficit reduction when an economy is entering into a recession, which apparently the UK is, but doesn’t believe it?
Currently reading the IFS quick response…
The Chancellor has felt obliged to relax his fiscal mandate. He is no longer looking to balance the current budget at all, and has pushed out to five years the point at which he says he wants debt to be falling as a fraction of national income.
But even in 2026-27 the total impact of new Autumn Statement measures is to reduce borrowing by ‘only’ £42 billion. This still leaves borrowing in that year being forecast to be £80 billion, compared to the £32 billion forecast in March.
But this still leaves borrowing at £69 billion in 2027-28. This is sufficient for the government to be on course for underlying debt to be falling as a share of national income. But only just. It now has headroom of just £9 billion compared to the £34 billion it had back in March and this is despite the target year for debt to be falling being pushed back two years. And even then the Government is on course to be still running a current budget deficit, contrary to the commitment made alongside its 2019 general election manifesto.
As ever, the forecasts are uncertain. The government’s finances could end up much healthier than expected. But if the outlook deteriorates further then Jeremy Hunt really has not left himself with much room to manoeuvre.
So I’m not sure the Chancellor is talking about deficit reduction as we enter this recession. Or when the process will really start, his story is likely to change when we discover how long the recession will be. As for Reeves, people seem to be adding 2 and 2 to get five, she’s said she recognises the figures of the OBR, nothing to do with what her targets would be as Chancellor… as it looks like it would be years away, why should she? We don’t even know how the “deficit” would be measured if Labour win the next election. I’m expecting more spending to be removed from the figures… including education, training and green energy infrastructure projects aimed at investing in the future seems unlikely to me. Labour will probably “borrow” more, but that doesn’t have to mean an increased deficit. Labour have said they will close tax loopholes (both historic and new ones created by Sunak while he was chancellor to benefit oil companies and banks) to increase the tax take, that doesn’t have to mean tax rises for all.
The BBC just observed that it’s a mere 55 days since the Truss/Kwatang mini-budget which threw borrowed money around like a pissed sailor on shore leave and today their successors (part of the same government) will impose the total opposite with massive cuts to public services and tax rises across the board
Facts are facts they didn't.
If you want to improve the country we live in - it requires we leave the neoliberalism mindset and flat out misrepresentation of the economy.
Cuts are needlessly hard wired in and nothing to do with the Truss fiasco.
There is no black-hole.
Your version of society can never function because you don't understand how the state finances itself.
You're not reading the correct BBC journalist's cheet sheets.
https://twitter.com/andyverity/status/1590605283050782720?t=RyZEzCwMQAnj2GphUpJvGg&s=19
Always remember a deficit 'hole' is a positive private sector balance.
Oof… tried a few minutes, and Kate Andrews is on it gaslighting Britain into making itself poorer… that the BBC (well a programme on the BBC) are still booking that shill as if she is a genuine contributor is depressing.
Lol. There is no more persistently stupid economic commentator than Kate Andrews.
Clearly has an agenda that fails the population.
BBC love her.
She says she agrees with it, because that’s what voters will want to hear. Labour have always been linked with fiscal imprudence, and by agreeing with the Tories on the need to appear prudent they are attempting to neutralise that attack vector.
It’s got nothing to do with whatever policies will get enacted.
Given their almost baked in lead maybe they could start giving it some?
Also I'm not convinced that just because Labour attain power their policies will be remotely strong enough.
Remember agreeing with the Tories on fiscal prudence and austerity lines will lead the electorate to believe the Tories are correct.
Labour will probably “borrow” more, but that doesn’t have to mean an increased deficit.
"Borrowing" more is the very definition of an increased deficit.
You make your spend; then look at the tax receipts - the difference is the deficit (positive contribution to the economy) then they match bonds to the deficit.
That's the increased borrowing or reserve drain as it's better explained.
The Tories and Labour are both in a circular mess, can't cut taxes can't increase taxes. This is the endgame for relying on the private sector (especially post-pandemic) to generate growth from crumbs.
None of this will ever change unless something significant is done and we move away from the the ridiculous economic orthodoxy that got us here.
Stop using the markets (undemocratic parasites) as the limiting factor (after all the BoE can and did control them.) And someone grow some balls and start putting a decent plan out there.
Remember agreeing with the Tories on fiscal prudence and austerity lines will lead the electorate to believe the Tories are correct.
Yup, a really important point imo. Saying publicly that you agree with Tory aim of balanced budgets and fiscal prudence whilst privately not believing in it and intended to abandon the idea as soon as in government is an appalling strategy on so many levels.
Including that not only does it strengthen the Tories in their false claims with regards to austerity etc but it also vastly undermines the counterargument. It gives even more ammunition to the Tories if a Labour government attempts to deviate from Tory policies. It also exposes a Labour government to accusations of dishonesty and hypocrisy. It forces them to behave as Tories.
Labour should have the confidence in their beliefs so that they can be open and honest about them, not publicly agreeing with the Tories whilst secretly planning different economic policies when in government.
The Tories are on the ropes like never before with regards to economic policies, and most importantly of all public support for them, now is not the time to agree with the Tories. Now is the time to change the narrative and offer an alternative agenda.
Unless of course a radical alternative to the Tories's agenda and challenging the status quo is simply too frightening, which I suspect is the case for many in the Parliamentary Labour Party. Life generally isn't too tough for Labour MPs, why upset the apple cart with radical stuff and make life difficult for yourself?
The big boast about Reeves was that she was on the BoE mpc and never rocked the boat (unlike, say, Blanchflower). The idea that she has a secret plan and an alternative economic perspective has not one iota of evidence to support it. Never has a government got elected by not wishing to frighten the horses then moved left. Starmer continues undermine democracy in the party to ensure rightwing appointments. Wishful thinking is understandable in such circumstances but is just that: 'vote Labour for some really good secret policies!'
Never has a government got elected by not wishing to frighten the horses then moved left.
Well, in terms of spending on public services, that's exactly what Labour did when they came into government last time.
Didn't they say 'education, education, education'? Can't continue, I'm afraid I've an appointment in Las Canteras.
"Starmer continues undermine democracy in the party to ensure rightwing appointment"
It's this kind of thinking that got us here in the first place. What the country needs is leadership, not the tail wagging the dog. The way that both main parties have extended democracy within their party structures by offering a 'special' vote for a small fee has helped to undermine democracy as a whole.
Training of the next gen going well I see
rone - are you an economist, financial markets expert or just an induvidual posting on an internet thread about a subject which interests/concerns you?
I think we should know.
Training of the next gen going well I see
Yeah, is seen that on the BBC website.
One of those caught jeering and hurling rascist insults is likely to be a PM one day.
What a school.
Training of the next gen going well I see
I imagine the next episode of The Rest is Politics podcast will be entertaining given Alastair’s previous attacks on Eton with Rory being a former pupil.
Those involved will be sanctioned. With Foreign Office jobs in slightly less nice places, or parliamentary seats in faraway northern towns rather than commuting distance to their club.
Best quote this week for me is Hunt during the statement pointing to the OBR information pointing to inflation being predominantly linked to Ukraine conflict, then the next day stating that the tax rises and service cuts will reduce inflation, it’s going to be a tough 2 years ahead.
Given their almost baked in lead maybe they could start giving it some?
Also I’m not convinced that just because Labour attain power their policies will be remotely strong enough.
Remember agreeing with the Tories on fiscal prudence and austerity lines will lead the electorate to believe the Tories are correct.
All fair comments. I'm not saying theirs is the right strategy, but that's what I think they are trying. On the other hand, maybe they think that if they're this far ahead the strategy is working?
Corbyn tried to do something different and much as I appreciated that it may have been what left Labour too vulnerable to attack.
The point rone is making is that Labour no longer has any excuse to ape the Tories's economic policies as it is now a well established fact that voter confidence in the Tories, and their handling of the economy, has totally collapsed.
Even Rishi Sunak/Jeremy Hunt save pairs of hands can't save them. The very latest opinion poll, fieldwork on the day of the latest budget, gives Labour a 27% lead over the Tories.
https://twitter.com/omnisis/status/1593613845226000385
It is all about the economy. It shows unprecedented lack of voter confidence in the Tories, even after changing their leader twice.
And I have lost count how many Chancellors the Tories have had in the last few months. Labour only had two in twelve years and the change only occured because the first one became PM, not because he was forced to resign or a disagreement over policy.
I have never (for various reasons) agreed with the claim that to beat the Tories you have to be more like the Tories, but how ffs can anyone still make that claim under the present circumstances? Especially when the Tories are 27 points behind Labour?
And in fact what is actually happening is that this current hard-right Tory government has recognised just how desperate the situation is for them that they are attempting to appear to be more like Labour - tax the wealthier, protecting pensions, hikes in NHS & social services spending, etc.
The Tories are panicking, they are desperately trying to shore up their collapsing support. Labour should be pushing them more and more to the left as happened when Labour forced Theresa May to announce the end of austerity.
If the current Labour Shadow Chancellor talks of "fiscal prudence" then it because she wants to, not because of an electoral strategic need to do so.
Labour no longer has any excuse to ape the Tories’s economic policies
Labour's policies do not "ape the Tories"... doubly true now that the Tories have had many quite different sets of policies within the space of a year. Labour have plans to invest in education, training and green infrastructure well beyond anything any of the most recent three attempts at Tory government have proposed this year, or any Tory government before them.
Labour should be pushing them more and more to the left as happened when Labour forced Theresa May to announce the end of austerity.
This is just not true. Labour have zero power to influence tory policy in any way. wishful thinking to believe they do?
Labour have zero power to influence tory policy in any way.
LOL! of course they do!
Why do you think they go the House of Commons, appear on the telly, give newspaper interviews, etc, when in opposition??
Are you seriously suggesting that Tories will never change their policies under pressure from opposition parties?!?!?
Get a grip.
Rishi Sunak is registered with a private GP practice that guarantees that all patients with urgent concerns about their health will be seen “on the day”. - Pippa Crerar, Guardian
[ unsurprised face ]
Ernie - of course the labour party have zero influence on tory policy. Public opinion might but the labour party - absolutly zero influence. they never have and never will
Rishi Sunak is registered with a private GP practice that guarantees that all patients with urgent concerns about their health will be seen “on the day”. – Pippa Crerar, Guardian
Given the chance of meeting him I’d make sure he made good use of his private healthcare
Public opinion might but the labour party – absolutly zero influence. they never have and never will
Blimey, I can't believe that you are still pushing that line.
Are you not aware that the Labour Party, and other opposition parties, can influence public opinion?
The current Tory government has to be acutely aware of what opposition parties are saying and how public opinion is reacting to it. Especially when they are trailing so far behind Labour in the opinion polls.
It has been suggested that the latest budget was an attempt by the Tories to park their tanks on Labour's lawn, with reference to pensions, NHS, and welfare spending. IE capture territory typically associated with Labour.
Labour can significantly influence a Tory government and all the more so a desperately weak and rudderless one like the present one. You can be certain that if Labour were currently arguing in favour of austerity and balanced budgets, or tax cuts, the Tories would be enthusiastically supporting those policies. And on the other hand a convincing argument in support of the NHS or a strong case for intervention in rising energy costs, which receives a ringing endorsement from public opinion, undoubtedly puts pressure on government policy.
Furthermore in recent years the Tories have become well-known for stealing Labour policies and rebranding them as their own.
This is a pretty scathing inditement of the current government
Ernie – of course the labour party have zero influence on tory policy. Public opinion might but the labour party – absolutly zero influence. they never have and never will
They've blatantly nicked Labour policies throughout the last 12 years, and continued to do so with that last budget. The only time in recent years they've gone fully out on their own was the mini-budget and look where that got them. Cameron's original manifesto was basically a bit of Blairs greatest hits with a smattering of blue paint on it
I used to have a boss like them. He'd rubbish any idea you brought forward, and then invariably a week later he'd propose the same thing as entirely his own.