So let's get this clear, the country isn't in a mess because the Irish, the carribeans, Indians ,gays, EU or lefties it's the people that turn up in the boats?
I really can't keep up with who's fault it is anymore.
Logan's Run...
I've said it before and I'll say it again, we have become a country dictated to by the elders. Asylum seekers and congestion causing cyclists dominate the news cycles because the average age of a Telegraph or DM reader, or viewer of Good Morning Britain is in their 60's, retired and has nothing better to do than sit at home and consume news all day.
They aren't employed or trying to run a business, they don't have kids in school, they don't really have an investment or stake in the Country's future yet the nation cleaves to their, (almost entirely irrelevant) concerns.
The truth is that they don't really have any concerns, (mortgage paid off, their kids will get a leg up with the inheritance etc) so the right wing media manufactures some concerns for them.
This is a new reality for Western societies, a generation or two ago the average voter (and media consumer) was much, much younger, likely economically active and very much invested in the Country's future.
I was reading an Owen Jones piece recently which touched on the demographic issue. Our only hope apparently is that the millenials are bucking the time honoured trend of gradually turning towards the Conservative party as they age, they simply aren't buying this bulls**t.
So in the interim, whilst were waiting for the millenials to come into demographic ascendancy, I'm giving up all hope.
take a look at your aggressive and condescending responses
Give over. If you're talking about me I'll admit to some mild sarcasm, but aggressive? 🤷♂️
giving people choice is what has got us into several messes….
Now that is condescending. Clearly you don't apply the same rules to yourself as you do to others.
so you think asking the populace about brexit was a great plan?!
and poly one your scenario about what I would do personally is I probably would stay in France...(though more likely I would have tried to head to scandavia)
I wouldn't risk my family in an illegal attempt trying to reach another country if I was safe where I was, no matter how uncomfortable. that's where it goes from safety to more about comfort / economics.
I would be confident in my ability to learn the language and do my best to contribute and make it work. I'd be focusing on that as a priority. if legal opportunities came up to move I would.
As I have a flavour of being a preper it is actually something I've thought about quite a bit.
I think the refugees are being sold a line as much as the UK public.
maybe the policy won't stop boats, but I do think the tories believe it will gain them votes
maybe the policy won’t stop boats,
I sincerely doubt even suella deville believes it'll work. they are just playing for daily mail headlines.
I wouldn’t risk my family in an illegal attempt trying to reach another country if I was safe where I was, no matter how uncomfortable.
You have absolutely no idea how you would behave in an extreme situation that you have never been in.
You might feel that you don't agree with their judgement but that is what it is - their judgement and what they feel is safe and best for themselves and their families.
maybe the policy won’t stop boats, but I do think the tories believe it will gain them votes
I doubt that the Tories believe it will gain them votes. There are local elections coming up, how many voters do you think are concerned about desperate people in small boats compared to voters concerned with rising council tax, failing services, potholes, etc?
It won't win them significant votes but it will push other stuff out of the news.
Just look at the Rishi Sunak thread on STW, it's the only thing being discussed.
so you think asking the populace about brexit was a great plan?!
I think asking the populace about anything and everything is a great plan. It's called democracy and we don't have nearly as much of it as we should. If we had properly functioning democracy, then the brexit vote probably wouldn't have happened. I also firmly believe that people would be more generous towards issues around immigration if we had more democracy, and we wouldn't have the cost of living crisis, the NHS crisis, the schools crisis, and god knows what other crises. The path to an enlightened, educated and mutually supportive society starts with people having the power to make decisions for themselves and their community.
The path to an enlightened, educated and mutually supportive society starts with people having the power to make decisions for themselves and their community.
Which is all well and good when the information that people are getting about it is factual and presented in a calm and reasonable way.
Nothing about Brexit was presented in that way - in fact what did it for the vote was Remain behaving in a calm and reasonable way pointing out why it was a catastrophically shit idea because of x law and y protocol and z funding and Leave going "take back control!!" and "sov-rin-tee!" and "stop the boats!".
News has long since stopped being anything calm and reasonable and fact-based, it's become a sensationalist free-for-all designed to get clicks and likes and shares. Print shite on the front page now, apologise for it 3 days later at the bottom of page 27.
Same here - you can publish all the facts you want around immigration and no-one will care; they'll go off the Dail Wail front page assuring them that every immigrant gets a room in a palace, unlimited benefits, a flatscreen TV and a phone and then simultaneously takes our jobs while also receiving millions in benefits.
I sincerely doubt even suella deville believes it’ll work. they are just playing for daily mail headlines
She knows full well it won’t work. It won’t even get that far and they know it.
The legal people are already saying that this whole thing will fall apart upon first contact with the real world, when it is challenged legally, as it clearly breaks international law
But… just detail, that.
It’s just more dog-whistle bullshit to appease their racist base and tickle the tums of Daily Telegraph editorial writers
The same as Rwanda. Nobody has been deported to Rwanda and nobody ever will be. It’s just then saying ‘we want to deport them all to Rwanda, but Labour/lefty lawyers/the liberal elite won’t let us’. Booooo hiss…. apparently we can’t even push them back into the sea either. Bloody go-gooders!
The question everyone needs to be asking is just how much money these pie-in-the-sky ‘policy’ announcements and legal challenges are costing.
Surely the whole Rwanda scheme must be well into the billions now and everyone knows it’s just unworkable bullshit that’ll never happen
Today is just more of the same
Which is all well and good when the information that people are getting about it is factual and presented in a calm and reasonable way.
Probably best to scrap general elections too in that case.
I'm liking Poly's approach on this. We need more pragmatism. Migration can't be stopped, that's futile. Getting people to work the menial jobs, for cash-in-hand when they arrive, just fixes so many problems.
Currently, lots of Albanian kids end up as drug runners, for example. It would be more sensible to at least know where they are and what they are doing.
Also, there has been an explosion in birth rates in some African countries recently, but those economies just can't handle the extra people. Sending people back/to Rwanda is effectively a death sentence. The illegality/danger of channel crossings pale in comparison.
If you want Albania, Bangladesh et al to fix their own problems and stop the exodus of people to the UK, at least put some effort into developing those countries via trade so the economy can support it's own population.
Definite non big hitter here!
Genuine question, can I ask what negative impact immigration has had on you and your families lives?
In my 54 years its not caused me one issue, the opposite in fact, perhaps I'm not representative though?
In more recent times and at a time I really needed the help with a serious diagnosis, most of the doctors and nurses that have helped me are either from a different country or likely the children of immigrants. Ditto the cleaners and the staff making and serving the hospital meals, oh, and the porters.
The social workers that were out today to review mum, first generation immigrants (going by accent).
But it's not just social care and NHS roles (massively important as they are to me and millions of others), the guys in my local shop, the taxi drivers (I'm not driving at the moment), our new neighbours etc etc are all lovely people and are contributing to society, not taking from it.
I'm honestly curious to hear what experiences in your lifes are different to mine? You certainly won't be getting an argument back from me either.👍
This is make or break for the Tories – an issue that can place clear blue water between the Government and Labour.
If Mr Sunak is serious about restoring his party’s fortunes, he can’t just roll out reams of legislation to convince voters he’s intent on stopping the boats. He must have the political will and moral courage to use it.
That ^^ is from a Daily Mail editorial, I find it hugely reassuring and heartwarming as it confirms that they are so politically/intellectually bankrupt that it really is the only thing that they have left in their armoury.
"Make or break for the Tories" LOL! 😆
If the Daily Mail editorial writers believe that UK voters are such rabid bigots that they will ignore everything else and rush out and vote Tory in the coming local and general election on just that "make or break" issue, then they have probably been spending too much time on STW 😂
Where did I say I was against immigration?
If I didn’t have kids and family ties I’d be out of this country like a shot and be happy to leave it to whoever wants it. It re ian’s a regular day dream about how the grass might be greener
(Brother in law has settled in NZ)
https://twitter.com/LouisaJamesITV/status/1633156203701485568?t=NmgCD8-Lz3Bmu9Z0LFwLCA&s=19
Gotta love a three word slogan... 😳
believe that UK voters are such rabid bigots that they will ignore everything else and rush out and vote Tory in the coming local and general election on just that “make or break” issue
It's only aimed at a small minority of voters... but without those voters these current Tories have no chance of staying in power. People voting against their own interests, because it is also a vote against immigrants... we've seen enough of that to know it happens. It's a small number of voters, but could be enough to swing results. Again.
So let’s get this clear, the country isn’t in a mess because the Irish, the carribeans, Indians ,gays, EU or lefties it’s the people that turn up in the boats?
I really can’t keep up with who’s fault it is anymore.
If we don't have the immigrants, they'll start looking back at tbe other groups
I just love how the Daily Mail leader writers believe it is the most important issue, a "make or break" issue on fact. It's not a minor issue like NHS waiting times, it's a major issue - a handful of desperate people risking their lives in tiny leaky boats.
Do they actually believe that shite or are they just having a laugh. Coz I think it's ****ing hilarious 😊
DT78
Free Member
Where did I say I was against immigration?
Sorry, I misinterpreted your posts then and cheers for replying to the "@".👍
"Stop the Boats"
I hope the first question the PM is asked when standing in front of that (assuming it's not photoshopped) is "PM are you releasing your post brexit fisheries policy today?"
Which is all well and good when the information that people are getting about it is factual and presented in a calm and reasonable way.
People can see through that stuff. Everyone knows the tabloids are full of lies. They know the news is owned by the likes of Murdoch. They probably know the BBC is full of shit (that's less certain admittedly). Yes the media influences the way people vote, but maybe that's because people don't take their votes very seriously? Being one person in 60,000 voting for an MP who has very little power doesn't motivate you to inform yourself or think about it too much, or bother to vote in the first place. Give people a vote on whether to close their local A&E dept though or increase funding for their kids school and they'll think for themselves and figure out what is in their best interests. The value of voting and having votes is proportional to the power people have of defending and promoting their individual and collective interests.
Genuine question, can I ask what negative impact immigration has had on you and your families lives?
It’s brought us the parents of Sunak, Patel, Braverman and some of Johnson’s recent ancestors!
How much of this headline grabbing stuff is cribbed straight across from Australian right wing politics? And who's in charge of the PR/messaging?
How much of this headline grabbing stuff is cribbed straight across from Australian right wing politics?
Well the Daily Mail isn't just stealing headlines from Australia, they are also getting an alledged Australian ex-Foreign Minister to right whole articles for them:
It's not even in the top ten most viewed pages on the BBC website, despite being the top story on the front page all day.
FFS. Three word slogans are back. You can tell which bit of the electorate they're pandering to.
Said it a few times, but the UK, and many western nations need immigration to continue to grow at the required rates, we just need to be able to weed out the criminals and so on, but it's bigger than just the UK unfortunately, there's a lot of nations in the EU and wider who are more preoccupied with keeping their right wingers happy that they're sacrificing their required immigration for balance.
It's the same story across all of it for me, look at drugs, we put so much effort and money into combating it all, instead of legalising certain ones, and then refocusing resources on the ones you want to crush, it's the same with many things unfortunately, and with the right, or the blue rinse brigade, change won't happen.
"How much of this headline grabbing stuff is cribbed straight across from Australian right wing politics"
All of it...
This was the Mail on Sunday front page two days ago:
https://www.tomorrowspapers.co.uk/weekend-front-page-2023-03-05/
The same day as Redfield & Wilton Strategies carried out an opinion poll which gave Labour a 26% lead over the Tories.
https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/latest-gb-voting-intention-5-march-2023/
So no bounce yet then.
Where did I say I was against immigration?
Ditto, our country is in dire straits after all the European immigrants went home, people who were culturally similar and net contributors to our society.
What I object to is the assumption all people in small boats are fleeing horrendous persecution, many are, many are fleeing economic hardship. I'd like an adult conversation about how many people and of what status we take each year. I'm also prepared to accept we probably don't take our fair share compared to many of our European neighbours.
I'd also like us as a country to be much more organised about how we deal with immigration, swiftly and fully dealing with each case on its merits, returning those who dont meet the criteria and supporting those that do properly. I don't want to see cases taking years to assess and people left in limbo.
Personally immigration hasn't had many negative effects on me and a lot of positives in terms of culture and food. However living in the North West of England I also see the negative impacts on societal values by some of the immigrant groups, the treatment of women, lack of tolerance of other cultures, failure to adhere to basic health and safety standards in business. For me though immigration is mainly positive.
I wouldn’t risk my family in an illegal attempt trying to reach another country if I was safe where I was, no matter how uncomfortable. that’s where it goes from safety to more about comfort / economics.
Nor would your average refugee, which is why, all of a sudden, post-brexit asylum seekers are statistically more male and "fighting age". I appreciate your empathy for their situation.
What I object to is the assumption all people in small boats are fleeing horrendous persecution
The few for whom this is not the case will have their asylum application rejected. This is not about stopping them, is is about refusing to allow people to come here to apply… knowing that most of them are genuine refugees that are still not wanted here by a minority of voters that the government are seeking to motivate to turn out to vote for them.
Surely the only thing this is designed to do is be another dead cat - possibly in the run up to May elections, maybe there's another scandal they're trying to cover or bury...?
It's not workable, it'll fail the moment it meets reality and then they'll blame lefties and woke liberals for "letting the country down", tell everyone that they're the only party that can be trusted with immigration and it'll be hack to normal levels of Tory grifting.
This is what happens when both parties feel they need to keep pushing right to 'solve' problems.
https://twitter.com/SKinnock/status/1633075254850379776?t=3yzrMVHZhcTxCd_ptlfVoQ&s=19
Ditto, our country is in dire straits after all the European immigrants went home, people who were culturally similar and net contributors to our society.
What do mean by culturally similar and net contributors to our society?
Are you suggesting that this proposed legislation is aimed at people who (ironically like our Prime Minister and Home Secretary) aren't from a white European christian culture, and apparently not net contributors?
I also see the negative impacts on societal values by some of the immigrant groups, the treatment of women, lack of tolerance of other cultures, failure to adhere to basic health and safety standards
What the hell has that got to do with what is being discussed here? Are you suggesting that the immigration officer who is processing an asylum claim at the Home Office should be considered these issues before granting asylum?
If the cultural background of those arriving in small boats is an important issue how come Rishi Sunak never mentioned it today?
I take it that you voted remain, with your apparent attitude I can see why.
I also see the negative impacts on societal values by some of the immigrant groups, the treatment of women, lack of tolerance of other cultures, failure to adhere to basic health and safety standards in business.
AS IF that has anything to do with race!
I can take you to plenty of places full of white people displaying all those characteristics. THIS is exactly what modern racism looks like. You see white people behaving badly and they're just gits, but you see brown people behaving badly and it's a race issue.
I found the core vote for this one:
Smell my cheese!
What do mean by culturally similar and net contributors to our society?
I would have thought that was relatively clear but given your Brexity tendencies obviously not.
What the hell has that got to do with what is being discussed here?
That was a direct answer to a question poopscoop asked which question how immigration had negatively impacted me. Nice of you to ignore the parts of my post where I said that immigration is generally a good thing.
AS IF that has anything to do with race!
Who mentioned race? I was referring to cultural and behavioural problems associated with some immigrant communities, nothing to, do with someone's race unless you assume (wrongly) that someone's skin colour defines their values and culture, now that is racist.
As I said before it's a bit pointless trying to have a grown up conversation about this when it's all about pint scoring.
Nice of you to ignore the parts of my post where I said that immigration is generally a good thing.
I am not ignoring that at all. I totally get that you approve of immigration into the UK. In fact the very first thing I did was to highlight your claim that "our country is in dire straits after all the European immigrants went home".
You obviously have no problem at all with immigration into the UK, just maybe if they aren't Europeans, and from a culture that you don't approve of. I suspect that Australians and white South Africans are just fine - obviously they would be "net contributors"
Thanks for confirming that you voted remain btw. You fit the profile of a few people I know, such as my cycling club captain who thinks the Rwanda policy is a great idea because "these people aren't genuine refugees like Ukrainians".
Going off piste. Wtf is a “cycling club captain”?
The captain of a cycling club. Have you never heard of one before?
Obviously nope, 400-500 people in my club, been going for nearly 100 years, no captain and no idea what one would do.
