[Closed] Random observaation, Scottish identity

highlandman - interesting reminisces about school. When I was taught, we had English history. We had a frieze round one classroom with all the English rulers since Roman times, we were taught about the Roman invasion (of England), of 1066 etc. Nothing to do with us of course. No mention of the founding of Scotland, of Picts and Celts. People laugh when I say that there was an institutionalised racism in Scottish education, but this wasn't confined to one school. Chatting with others of my generation, it was widespread.

Much of the Gaelic revival (and I'd include Runrig as a prime mover in this) has been to try to restore Scots awareness of their own past.

Lyrics for Fichead Bliadhna by Runrig
Running in the moors
Running in the hills
And then to school at the end of summer
Children,
Five years of age,
Without a word of English in my head

Here is your book,
Here is your pen.
"Study hard", that's what they told me,
"And you will rise up in the world,
You will get ahead."

Twenty years for the truth
I had to wait
I had to search
Twenty years of lies
They denied me knowledge of myself.

I learned many things
The English language, the poetry of England
The music of Germany
The history of Spain
And even that was a false history

Then on to further education
Following education, more education
Like idiots on the end of a string
Our heads filled with a sort of learning

Twenty years for the truth
I had to wait
I had to search
Twenty years of lies
They denied me knowledge of myself.

And I did rise in the world
I found my suit, I found my shirt
I found a place in the eyes of men
Well away from the freedom of the moor

But why did they keep our history from us?
I'll tell you they are frightened
In case the Gaels rise
With searching and penetrating questions.

Twenty years for the truth
I had to wait
I had to search
Twenty years of lies
They denied me knowledge of myself.

When I started searching
I could not believe my eyes,
evil works.

Interesting about history teaching Scotroutes. I went to comprehensive school in Glasgow in the 70s and I got no UK history at all ( I dropped it as 14 tho) We had pre Roman and Roman stuff then scots history Mary queen of scots, jacobites etc - nothing that I remember about 1066 , english civil war, english kings and queens.

and islanders definitely feel part of Scotland

having lived in Orkney I'm not sure this as true for Orkney & Shetland as it is for the western isles.

scotroutes - Member
Much of the Gaelic revival has been to try to restore Scots awareness of their own past.

Few pages ago, Duckman(I think) mentioned that that had changed somewhat in schools, since 2009. I can only take him at his word. Hopefully it has.

Any comprehensive history teaching of migrations/language/culture etc has to include, Irish, ****stani, Indian, Italian, Chinese, Polish etc etc etc history as well as the "native" history.

Gents I'd recommend a book by Alister Moffat The Fadded Map (the lost kingdoms of Scotland). For the lay person it gives the history of the development of Scotland as a country and the development of the various languages spoke. Also the cannot help but include the England and Wales. The gist being for a long time the most common laugh age spoken in Britain for a period is Old Welsh, the name of Edinburgh is a corruption of its old Welsh name.

It's right here on a bookshelf 🙂

yourguitarhero - Member
joshvegas » yourguitarhero - Member
scotroutes » tjagain » craigw
Leuchars / Luacharas (a place with reeds or rushes)
That makes sense as it's on the Eden estuary. I grew up the next village over
Balmullo or Guardbridge?
Grew up in Balmullo in the 80s/90s

Snap.

mt - Member
Also the cannot help but include the England and Wales.

Which is true even for modern day history, you can't escape it and would be wrong to do so, I don't think people are saying that though, just that it is/was too lopsided.

From a personal point of view, I think this book should be on the syllabus in Glasgow.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Irish-Remarkable-Saga-Nation-City/dp/1840188510

I am deeply conflicted by this topic.

I was brought up just outside Aberdeen in a decidedly rural setting on the estate of the last catholic seminary in Scotland. My parents (who were decidedly 'toonsers') who, in an effort to give their children a headstart in life by talking 'English' thus robbing me of my natural vernacular (i.e. doric). This was the sixties....

And to cap it all my father was a linguist and a teacher of gaelic, in fact he wrote a non-native learner Gaelic course book (and an o-grade interpretation book as well). If you tried to learn Gaelic in the late 70's or 80's chances are you used his book. If it was with Aberdeen college of commerce. It might even have been him.

I recall going to a single Saturday morning junior Gaelic class with my elder brother and sister (I was too young really) when they went for all of three or four weeks. That is it, my total effort to learn.... 😳 Kids, eh? Who'd bloody have them? None of the four of us speak a word (despite my sisters partner hailing from Brescliat on the west of Lewis).

The two local hills (too low to really call them mountains) are Bennachie and Clachnabeinn which are obviously gaelic in derivation (my dad had a great story about the derivation of Clachnabeinn). Sadly I only tapped into this repository of knowledge when I needed help with pronunciation...

There are some great local place names/pronunciations though;

Finzean - Fingin
Strachan - Stra'an
Aberchirder - Foggieloan

Mind you, one of my favourite place names has to be bridge of Bogendriep

Hearing the Proclaimers on the radio for the first time was a massive eye-opener for me. At last, people who spoke like me were able to make themselves heard without having to conform to some Anglo-saxon or mid-Atlantic generic accent.

Reading Trainspotting had a similar effect.

Things are slowly improving though. Peter Capaldi was allowed to retain his accent in Dr Who whereas David Tennant was told to cover his up.

That's twa mair books oan the reading list . Thanks Seosamh and mt

@scotroutes. You read any of his other books? Have read three now all great. The Reivors. Border History all brilliant and fantastically educational if you spend a lot of time in the north of England and Southern Scotland.

The people who always come out best to me are the Romans, everyone else is bobbins.

gordimhor - Member
That's twa mair books oan the reading list . Thanks Seosamh and mt

I haven't. The Highland Clans is on my list though.

If anyone wants to borrow The Faded Map, let me know.

How about The Summer Walkers (Timothy Neat)? That fair took me back to family holidays in the Highlands when we'd see the Tinkers with their carts

Any suggestions for good novels in Scots or partly in Scots. I m familiar with Welsh, Mccilvanney and to a lesser degree Kelman.
I'd also suggest Andrew Greig Electric Brae or Fair Helen being my favourites by him

Sunset Song by Lewis Grassic Gibbon.

Not strictly scots (anglicised) but very evocative of the Howe o the Mearns (and a powerful book if you've not read it).

If you read it out loud the rhythms are very authentic.

Here's a bit of Scots for mtbers... (lifted from FB)

TAMS MUCKLE TURD.
Intae the wids amongst the trees.
Tam bared his erse, his cheeks to ease.
Nae sinner hud his breeks gan doon.
Than shitty flees were swarming roon.
Intae the wind he bared his baws
and from his erse a big keech faws.
The reek it curled amongst the trees.
'twis enough tae make the birdies sneeze.
An' a' the bees on bended knees,
Got sick a fricht o' Tams big erse.
Big Tam wis in awfy pain.
It came oot his erse like a nine pund wean.
Thur wis a tear faw fi' his eee
For a bigger shite you'd never see.
Big Tams erse wis raw an sair.
Says big Tam I'll shite nae mair.
Yonder it lay amongst the grit.
A dirty stinkin' muckle shit.
Yonder it lay si saft, si fresh.
Nae een, nae teeth, nae bains, nae flesh.
I swear it never drew a breath.
Tams Muckle Turd.

For recent Scots books, albeit written in fairly plain English, I think Ian Banks was pretty impressive.

There's a wonderfully west Scotland feel to his stuff - less so the Ian M Banks stuff but that's well written too.

Favourite Runrig song - Recovery. Makes hairs stand up. And if you like Runrig (some don't) try Wolfstone. The Chase is good.

But N Ben A-Go-Go is pretty good, probably the only sci-fi novel in Scots.

Also a few of the Asterix books have been translated into Scots as well as Gaelic.

Cheers IGM and Metalheart I am a fan Banks with and without the M. Sunset Song is on the reading list too. Tried it before and couldn't get into it but I enjoyed the film.
I think Scotroutes nailed it for the Runrig songs but this one is a favourite of mine

TAMS MUCKLE TURD.
Intae the wids amongst the trees.
Tam bared his erse, his cheeks to ease.
Nae sinner hud his breeks gan doon.
Than shitty flees were swarming roon.
Intae the wind he bared his baws
and from his erse a big keech faws.
The reek it curled amongst the trees.
'twis enough tae make the birdies sneeze.
An' a' the bees on bended knees,
Got sick a fricht o' Tams big erse.
Big Tam wis in awfy pain.
It came oot his erse like a nine pund wean.
Thur wis a tear faw fi' his eee
For a bigger shite you'd never see.
Big Tams erse wis raw an sair.
Says big Tam I'll shite nae mair.
Yonder it lay amongst the grit.
A dirty stinkin' muckle shit.
Yonder it lay si saft, si fresh.
Nae een, nae teeth, nae bains, nae flesh.
I swear it never drew a breath.
Tams Muckle Turd.

This isn't aimed at you epic, well it is if you want to answer, but it's open to everyone.

But hows that a difrint langwij? I gen up struggle way the concept. Ye canny just fanny aboot way a cupla spellins, stick in a few lowkl wurds and caw it a langwij.

Ivrrybudy kin make inglish look funny if they spelit foanetiklay in thurr ain dialect.

no whit a mean? We might as well caw irvine welsh wan eh the great scoats langwij novlists.

Shall I call the above the Ruglonian language and apply for some government funding to promote it?

For example, look at this if i can read and understand just about every word, i'm sorry but it's not a separate language.

http://www.lallans.co.uk/

Gordi: please persevere with it, it's a very powerful book. I was introduced to it in 2 or 3 year English class. I still have the Longmans edition with a glossary explaining the meaning (and where the words are anglicised too, it bugged me that he wrote quean instead of quine but hey I'm over it 😆 ) pm me and I'll photo the glossary for you if you want.

My other favourite Scottish books are Young Art and Old Hector and The Green Isle of the Great Deep by Neil M Gunn, really beautiful stuff. First book is the relation ship between an old man and a young boy (think Hector is Arts grandfather but it's been a while, I could be wrong) in a highland crofter community. The second is about what happens when unexpectedly they slip into another (fascistic) afterworld, aye from Caithness!

Lallans / Doric / English.

Would you call Africaans and Dutch separate languages? native speakers of both can understand the other reasonably well - ( I believe it works better one way that the other). They diverged not that long ago. They are probably as close as Lallans and English

Or how about the varieties of Spanish? Whats spoken in Spain is somewhat different to the spanish spoken in south america.

Its a slippery concept whether its a dialect or a separate language

That reading list of mine is getting longer and longer metalheart . I've read a few by Neil Gunn two that stood out were The Silver Darlings and particularly Second Sight.

seosamh77 - Member
This isn't aimed at you epic, well it is if you want to answer, but it's open to everyone.
But hows that a difrint langwij?...

There is definitely a major communication problem if you run into a Doric/Scots speaker for the first time, so I'll leave the argument to the linguists. But it's more than just the accents, there's a whole vocabulary.

As for spelling, anything written in Scots in the past has had very variable spelling so I don't even know if there's a standardised version. However using the spelling as you have there does make it easier to hear the dialect/language as it sounds, so maybe there's some value to that.

Seosamh have you read Feersum Endjinn by Iain M Banks?
Takes what you have done in your post above to full length novel.
It left me grinning.

There is definitely a major communication problem if you run into a Doric/Scots speaker for the first time,

This, definitely this. In my work there are quite a few people (Scottish) who have come to work in Aberdeen and they talk about being completely flummoxed by doric. I was talking about this with people from Alness and Ireland just last week infact. There's definitely a whole vocabulary.

Div ye ken fit a quine or a cheil is? Fit sharnie beets are, or fit a full moch **** of a hoor is? Ahm fair affronted if ye dinna 😉

That reading list of mine is getting longer and longer metalheart

Ha, add Neil's Morning Tide to that list while you're at it too 😆

Gruffalo in scots is guid fur 'e weans.

metalheart - Member
...Div ye ken fit a quine or a cheil is? Fit sharnie beets are, or fit a full moch **** of a hoor is? Ahm fair affronted if ye dinna

I thought I did, then I visited Buckie...

I'm not meaning to offend anyone btw, just trying to understand the history.

If you look at Scotland, far as I can see over the years it's had lots of different language influences. And if you think about it, when these things happened literacy levels would have been vastly lower than we would know today and there wouldn't have been one single source to verify language as we know it, so the spread of language would have largely been oral and more natural.

If we go back to the beginning of what we know, Pictish was probably the first language of Scotland, but you then have the Bryonthic language of the ancient Britons influencing up from the south as well. After that you've the got Irish and the Vikings coming over and heavily influencing what was here(in the Irish case, completely dominating Pictish and Ancient Welsh). Now if you look at Gaeilge/Gahdlig, they are probably more different than you could class Scots/English but you wouldn't class them as different languages, just dialects(I'm speculating there, I know no Gaelic, I'll defer to the gaelic speakers on that one). The reason for this is probably literacy levels and the influence of previous languages and existing accents.

With regards to Scots, you can probably see a similar thing happening. When Scots first started to appear in Scotland it was actually called Inglis, so the source language is obvious. And as it's moved throughout the land people naturally switch from one language to another and develop accents different from the incoming tongue as their local languages dominate(guess we can see evidence of this in the accents of foreigners that learn English), and they also keep some words from the previous languages they knew, for I guess a variety of reasons.

So I don't really view these Scots words as a different languages, more just and expansion of the English language. The spread of Scots seems to have stopped as English becomes a more established and codifyied language. (I actually think that's the real source of it, attempts to properly codify language at the time, which would have probably been happening in a few places, one source would always go on to dominate in that sense.)

So perhaps, in isolation, scots would have gone on to be so different as to be classed as a different language. But as I say, I really struggle with this concept if I can understand it with very little effort. It's just English with an accent structurally, with some extra words that come from gaelic/viking sources.

As I say, not trying to offend anyone or belittle it, just an honest view( it's all pure speculation on my part). So, convince me otherwise, I'm not completely tied to this view, but it's where I'm at!

ps I got asked to speak English once in a hostel in Spain 😆 , so being unintelligible to other English speakers doesn't mean you are speaking a different language! I probably think of lots of example where people struggle to understand me. similarly I can struggle with some strong english accents at times.

I've always thought English wasn't a thing until it started to get written down for widespread purposes. At that point someone had to go about collating the many different but similar ways of talking and writing to come up with a standardised version. This of course would have been biased towards the bulk of the population where there was most commonality. The populations on the fringes would have continued longer with their existing versions, not entirely a separate language, it just never became standarsised with the rest of the variants. Who knows how many variants we lost during the process.

tjagain - Member

gordimhor - Member
Seosamh have you read Feersum Endjinn by Iain M Banks?
Takes what you have done in your post above to full length novel.
It left me grinning.

How about Spanish/Portuguese? From the outside, they look very similar with some differences down to not much more than another pronunciation

Its a slippery concept whether its a dialect or a separate language

Nail on the head. I've heard there is debate as to whether or not the Nordic languages are dialects or languages. As for mutual intelligibility - enough slang or idioms can do that in the same language. My (Welsh) Dad struggled when working in Yorkshire at times, but that's just dialect.

There are quite different dialects in North and South Wales, btw, which is recognised and appreciated. Unlike England where there is considered to be one proper way of speaking.

scotroutes - Member
How about Spanish/Portuguese? From the outside, they look very similar with some differences down to not much more than another pronunciation

I guess this is the crux of it, what is the defining line, Spanish/Protuguese/Italian/French(and I think Romanian) are all the same family of languages. But when do you get a dividing line that makes it a different language?

Is there a specific amount of vocabulary necessary or does there need to be structural differences etc?

As i say that, as someone that has only ever learned English(and a tiny bit of pidgeon spanish), I struggle with calling something I can understand, fairly comprehensively, a different language.

Anyhow, I've said enough, I'll let others continue this part of the discussion on for a while to get a different perspective.

I thought I did, then I visited Buckie...

Aye, it's weel kent there's fair some clatty hoors in Buckie...

Mebbe try Peterheed or the Broch next time 😉

Max Weinreich said "A language is a dialect with an army and a navy"

metalheart - Member

In my work there are quite a few people (Scottish) who have come to work in Aberdeen and they talk about being completely flummoxed by doric

Not proud of this but I was up in Aberdeen a while back and I thought the guy that showed me to my room was handicapped. Turned out, he was just speaking doric.

If you are wanting a good Scottish novel; try "His bloody project."

The problem is we're trying to apply lines on a map to languages and dialects. One town language would have been similar to its neighbours but not necessarily to the town 20miles away. Imposing borders and languages just complicates things.

This, definitely this. In my work there are quite a few people (Scottish) who have come to work in Aberdeen and they talk about being completely flummoxed by doric. I was talking about this with people from Alness and Ireland just last week infact. There's definitely a whole vocabulary.

I've had to translate for two Scots on a number of occasions. Never really 100% sure why I could understand each speaker, I'm guessing it's down to having to concentrate on what's being said most of the time in daily life. It's all barely intelligible rambling to me.

Not proud of this but I was up in Aberdeen a while back and I thought the guy that showed me to my room was handicapped. Turned out, he was just speaking doric.

I've done similar, albeit over the phone and the other way round. Just thought he just had a very strong Glasgow accent. 😐

It's all barely intelligible rambling to me.

Well, that certainly explains your facial expression when I'm speaking to you.... 😉

@duckman read it just before Christmas it's really excellent

It's all barely intelligible rambling to me.

Are you talking about Doric?

If so, that's a pretty loaded way to refer to someone's language. You may find it barely intelligible, but that's your fault not theirs. And calling it rambling is derogatory, don't you think? You probably didn't mean to be that way, I assume that you are just repeating phrases you've heard before. Which simply goes to show the negativity directed towards people of different backgrounds by everyone throughout history.

@molgrips: it was in reply to a post by me (and we've met in real life) so you need to think how that might affect things...

and we've met in real life

I have an absolutely terrible memory when it comes to real people's forum names... 🙁

But the post was more a general point about language.

"Unlike England where there is considered to be one proper way of speaking"

That is utter b.llocks lad. It maybe view of them there BBC types but here in Free Yorkshire we can tell tha's from Barnsley, Wakefield or Sheffield by way tha talks love. If tha's from Whitby thee's no chance of bein understood in Penistone.

There is no Gaelic spoken in Orkney and Shetland which surprises a lot of people. Both are heavily influenced by Norse. Orkney people are often mistaken for Welsh. I like this song on YouTube which is sung in a Shetland accent.

I have an absolutely terrible memory when it comes to real people's forum names...

Relax. It's metalheart and piemonster that have met in real life.

Also I am terrible at interpreting forum posts.

😆

Also I am terrible at interpreting forum posts.

But, yet big enough to admit when you're wrong...

😆 +1

Also, perhaps piemonster was right all along.... 😉

It's all barely intelligible rambling to me.

See tbh, regarding the Spanish/Portuguese question, I've been looking into that a bit more, and really it looks like a dialect! 😆 Apologies to any Portuguese on the forum!

Apparently Portuguese can understand Spanish much better than the Spanish can understand Portuguese. due to the accent mostly. there's also a Lingua Franca called Portunhol which I didn't know existed.

So are the Portuguese just the Scots of the Iberian peninsula? 😆 (I know they went independent about 800 years ago, but still)

The dialect with and army and a navy comment, does seem to ring true. (it did get me thinking that comment, so while I haven't completely changed my mind, it's an interesting thought.)

According to the census there are over 100 languages spoken daily in the UK. English changes over time; I wonder what we will end up with in a 1000 years.

If Castellan (Standard Spanish) and Catalan are different languages then English and Scots are too.

To be honest I'm not sure it really it matters either way but it strikes me as odd that we would agree that one is a language and not the other. I think there has been a degree of stigmatisation towards regional dialects / languages that is uniquely British almost as if standard English is the only way to speak properly

seosamh77 - Member
See tbh, regarding the Spanish/Portuguese question, I've been looking into that a bit more, and really it looks like a dialect! Apologies to any Portuguese on the forum

I think there has been a degree of stigmatisation towards regional dialects / languages that is uniquely British

Nah, happens all over Europe. At least we still have regional languages. The French almost succeeded in stamping theirs out as deliberate policy.

I generally don't indulge in poetry, but oddly much of what I like is best with a bot of Doric.

LORNA WALLACES POEM ABOUT DONALD TRUMP

A Scot's Lament fur her American Fellows (Oan their election of a tangerine gabshite walloper

America, aw whit ye dain?!
How could ye choose a clueless wain
Ti lead yir country? Who wid trust
A man sae vile?!
A racist, sexist eedjit
Wi a shite hairstyle?

Yet lo, ye votit (michty me!)
Ti hawn' this walloper the key
Ti pow'r supreme, ti stert his hateful,
Cruel regime.
A cling ti hope that this is aw
Jist wan bad dream.

But naw, the nightmare has come true,
A curse upon rid, white an' blue,
An' those who cast oot Bernie
Must feel sitch regret
Fur thinkin' Mrs. Clinton
Was a safer bet.

So noo we wait ti see unfold
Division an' intolerance, cold;
A pois'nous bigotry untold
Since Hitler's rule
As the free world' s hopes an' dreams
Lie with this fool.

Alas, complainin' wullnae change
The fact this diddy has free range
Ti ride roughshod ow'r human beings
That fall outside
The cretinous ideals borne of
His ugly pride.

Awch USA, we feel yir woes
An' pour oor wee herts oot ti those
Who ken this oarange gabshite isnae
Who they chose,
But jist sit tight;
Trump's cluelessness
Will time expose.

Fur sittin' there beside Obama
Efter the election drama,
Trump looked like reality
Had finally hit:
Aboot the role of president
He knew Jack shit.

Poutin', glaikit through this farce,
His mooth wis pursed up like an arse,
His Tangoed coupon glowin' like
A skelped backside.
Despite all his bravado
Trump looked keen ti hide.

Let's therefur no despair an' greet,
Or see this outcome as defeat.
Let's wait an' watch this bampot
Flap his hawns an' squirm
When presidential pressures
Crush him like a worm.

Hawd oan ti values you hold dear,
Don't let this numpty bring yi fear,
His chants of hatred don't speak fur
The human race.
Love will endure despite this
Oarange-faced disgrace.

So USA, in ma conclusion,
Know we Scots feel your confusion:
We are also chained ti those
Not of oor choosin' .
Stand firm fur unity will break
Through Trump's delusion.