Forum menu
And just to clear up the issue around whether you need to name the driver.
England and Wales is covered by provisions in the Protections of Freedoms Act (POFA) 2012. It is not in force in Scotland yet but I believe it is coming in this year.
POFA allows the private parking company to hold the keeper liable for any parking charge provided the PCN issued in line with requirements of POFA, most notable the PCN must be delivered with 14 days of the offence.
There is no legal requirement to name the driver in Scotland, England or Wales. tpbiker is correct in this regard. However the PPC can hold the keeper liable.
The PPC was banking on tpbiker not contesting the PCN, which if he had done in curt on the basis of no keeper liability should have been a slam dunk win, in fact as soon as he had entered that as a defence prior to the hearing the PPC would almost definitively have discontinued the case knowing they would not win.
Where POFA is applicable, if the keeper names a random 3rd party that doesn't get the keeper off the hook if the 3rd party isn't real or wasn't driving.
The law is all a bit of mess and believe it or not works in favour of the motorist. If PPCs took every unpaid PCN to small claims the system would collapse overnight. This is why they send out threatening letters if you don't pay, most PCNs are legitimate and enforceable, short of taking people to court all the PPC can do is try to frighten people into paying.
That said the appeals process needs tightening up, some PPCs take appeals seriously, others pretty much reject every one
The PPC was banking on tpbiker not contesting the PCN, which if he had done in curt on the basis of no keeper liability should have been a slam dunk win, in fact as soon as he had entered that as a defence prior to the hearing the PPC would almost definitively have discontinued the case knowing they would not win.
I don't think it's as clear cut, the case linked by IRC says the courts (correctly) found in favour of the PPC and saw the refusal to name as obfuscation.
Now, that was multiple tickets and a significant sum and SJ might well be right that for a single ticket they wouldn't bother with the process, but equally the OP did tell them he wasn't the driver which they have acknowledged and they have proceeded to court anyway.
And - "the value of the claim is £300* or less - there will normally be no award of expenses."
So while the parking company will be paying lawyers to have their day in court there will usually be no costs awarded to them.
OP said there is £140 in costs awarded against him, plus the £160 ticket.
But this was possibly because he failed to defend it which may be classed as unreasonable. Which obviously doesn't apply if he was never served properly.
As I mentioned there is a specific route to redress this kind of thing in scotland. It's called an 'application to recall a decree'. No lawyer required.
While fundamentally your right. You might as well be wrong. As the others have pointed out the parking co will have a field day with you.
By your own admission you haven't responded to any further attempts
They originally wrote me a letter with the charge. I appealed online saying i wasnt the driver, they responded by email rejecting my appeal saying they'd assume I was unless i told then who was driving.
This was clearly an attempt to bully me into giving out a name, tactics they are well known for. They even acknowledged i didnt legally need to give them the name. Assumption doesn't stand up in court. They have to prove i was driving, which of course they couldn't
I didn't reply after that, id fulfilled my obligation to tell them i wasnt the driver. Never heard from them again. That was over 14 months ago.
I was advised to not get into an endless back and forth with them about this. I did i what I was legally obliged to do. Nothing more, nothing less.
If I'd been invited to court I would have attended and that would have been that. 99% chance I'd have won. 1% chance I'd have lost, paid the fine and that woukd be the end of it
I was awarded against purely on a procedural technicality, ie i wasnt in court to oppose it.
Assumption doesn't stand up in court. They have to prove i was driving, which of course they couldn't
Or, they could ask in court who was and then you'd be obliged to say, plus run the risk that the court might look dimly on not disclosing earlier as per the other case.
I was advised to not get into an endless back and forth with them about this.
By who?
which as I see it is absolutely fair and proper no matter what the loophole says.
Whilst I take your point,
If the boot were on the other foot, you'd broken the law and were in court arguing 'fairness' as a defence, you'd lose in short order every time. Driven slowly a couple of metres past a camera-enforced red traffic light to let blues & twos through? Here's your fine and points sir, far more important than enabling an ambulance responding to a heart attack.
If this weren't the case then I'd be inclined to agree with you. But the law doesn't care about fairness, it cares about what the law says. If the OP is operating within the law then you can bleat about loopholes and elevate your spine as high as you like but you'll still be wrong.
... whilst I don't know anything about Scottish law, taking the OP to court and ruling against him in secret would seem somewhat "unfair," would it not?
As the others have pointed out the parking co will have a field day with you
On what basis exactly? Do tell?
The sherrif will decide if they recall, not the parking co or it's solicitors who don't get a say in the matter
If then it goes back to court and the parking co can decide whether to pursue me again or not. What exactly are those lawyers going to say exactly? 'He didn't give us a name, and whilst he isn't legally obliged to give use one, and it's clearly not him driving, we feel he should pay anyway as our client is out of pocket? '.
I doubt their solicitors were even there last time. If they were they'd have made a loss given the 300 quid total costs (which included the court admin fees) won't cover a solicitor travelling from Glasgow for the day
Nope..they'll have filed a speculative claim, and luckily for them I never showed up, hence they won on a technically
Either way, there is zero downside fir me in applying for a recall. Either I win, or I'm in no worse position than I am now
So that case IRC linked to. I'm no lawyer however asked chat gpt to summarise
Euro Car Parks Limited v Smaira Bilal Saleem confirms that in Scotland, liability for private parking charges rests with the driver, not automatically with the registered keeper. Euro Car Parks pursued Ms Saleem as keeper, but once evidence showed she was not the driver, the substantive claim could not succeed and was withdrawn. Although the first-instance Sheriff criticised her for not identifying the driver earlier and awarded expenses against her, the Sheriff Appeal Court overturned that decision, holding that she was not legally obliged to identify the driver and that it was inappropriate to penalise her for defending the claim. The appeal court ordered no expenses to either party, reinforcing that private parking operators must prove driver liability and cannot rely on assumption or keeper status.
So I fail to see how that case (which was for a claim of 6k) sets any kind of precedent as to why I shoukd be handing out a name just because a parking co asks me to. Quite the contrary.
The criticism from the judge about not handing over the name related to expenses awarded, and was overturned on appeal, specifically stating she had no legal obligation to do so.
OK, point taken about the Chat GPT summary, maybe you do have a case to defend yourself that way.
taking the OP to court and ruling against him in secret would seem somewhat "unfair," would it not?
Only have the OP's side that docs weren't served. I think it likely that PPC will have to have "proven" they were as part of the court docs, otherwise they could just not bother and then win everything by default (and equally people could just bin anything that came and then claim nothing was ever received).
Until we know that side of the story, maybe achieved by asking the court for a copy of the docs (or a link if they were online?) I'm sceptical it was some sort of 'secret'. It was an open court that for whatever reason the OP didn't turn up to.
Point taken about fairness, that's why the law is being changed (strictly has been, but is not yet enacted) which *might* have implications on how the Sheriff interprets the obligation to disclose. Rightly or wrongly, that's what the judiciary do, interpret the law and as I said earlier turning up (particularly as a layperson) and telling them they've got it all wrong may not be the best course of action, in my limited experience.
The OP’s girlfriend parked illegally. Pay up and move on with your life and you have non of these months of hassle. Not hard is it.
taking the OP to court and ruling against him in secret would seem somewhat "unfair," would it not?
That would. But normally in these cases (car park firms) If your appeal fails, or you don't appeal in the right time frame and you don't provide them with a name, or pay; they default to court automatically.
I'd imagine that's what happened here. As I mentioned before, Until/unless you get a letter from the CP firm telling you the fine's been cancelled, it's still live, regardless of what you think is going on.
Only have the OP's side that docs weren't served.
I'm not arguing they weren't served, I'm categorically saying I never saw them. Whether they went to the wrong address, or my dog ate them doent matter. Serving does not equate to recieved. hence one of the reasons the recall process exists
The credit update only occurs 30 days after the rulling if non payment. The fact I went to the court within days of this credit update to question what was going on woukd strongly indicate I wasn't aware of the ruling before hand.
Either way, you keep referring to the case irc linked to, but that does nothing but strengthen my case, not detract from it.
Edit.. i see you have acknowledged that
That would. But normally in these cases (car park firms) If your appeal fails, or you don't appeal in the right time frame and you don't provide them with a name, or pay; they default to court automatically.
I'd imagine that's what happened here
That's exactly what has happened I expect And if I'd been aware of the court case I'd have turned up and it woukd have been a slam dunk
There isn't going to be a team of hot shot lawyers there trying to trip me up. The law is black and white here.
The OP’s girlfriend parked illegally. Pay up and move on with your life and you have non of these months of hassle. Not hard is it.
So not "illegally" as parking on *private* land is a contractual matter, and a civil offence. If you breach terms of the contract (which you agreed to by parking there) you can be given a penalty charge.
But I'm of the same position - morally you shouldn't do something you know is wrong because you think you can get away with it. But an awful lot of people seem to take a different view when it comes to anything to do with driving/parking/speed limits.
The law is black and white here.
Yep, and has been used against you by folks who do this day in day out. The CP firm isn't interested in who's driving the vehicle beyond a name to send the bill to. So when you told them it wasn't you and you're not going to to tell them who it was, at that point they thought, winner winner chicken dinner. They can legitimately now allow this to proceed to court automatically, and at court the Judge/Sheriff can ask if the V5 and the driver match, at which point all the CP firm has to say is "They refused to say, M'Lud" and the Judge/Sheriff is entitled to draw the conclusion that the V5 and the driver match, and no one has lied or broken the law The CP firm aren't going to tell the Judge/Sheriff that you provided a reason why it couldn't have been you, it's not in their interest to do that. (they still haven't lied or broken the law)
Bang (as they probably don't say) to rights.
The OP’s girlfriend parked illegally. Pay up and move on with your life and you have non of these months of hassle. Not hard is it.
Well firstly it's not 'illegal'. That implies she broke the law. She didn't. She shoukd have paid the 5 quid, it was a genuine mistake . Either way im not legally liable for the fine. Morally...well if we were dealing with a company that had any morals themselves I may have acted differently and given them the name or just paid it
Paying up now is pointless. If they'd sent me the letter after the court case it may have been worth it, but after 30 days I have absolutely nothing to lose by holding out until my recall application is reviewed
Yep, and has been used against you by folks who do this day in day out. The CP firm isn't interested in who's driving the vehicle beyond a name to send the bill to. So when you told them it wasn't you and you're not going to to tell them who it was, at that point they thought, winner winner chicken dinner. They can legitimately now allow this to proceed to court automatically, and at court the Judge/Sheriff can ask if the V5 and the driver match, at which point all the CP firm has to say is "They refused to say, M'Lud" and the Judge/Sheriff is entitled to draw the conclusion that the V5 and the driver match, and no one has lied or broken the law The CP firm aren't going to tell the Judge/Sheriff that you provided a reason why it couldn't have been you, it's not in their interest to do that. (they still haven't lied or broken the law)
Bang (as they probably don't say) to rights
Except you are missing the fairly critical point that I have the right to defend myself and wasn't afforded it...all I had to say was 'it wasn't me driving' and the case is thrown out..
The irony is this could end up costing you a lot more than just paying the fine in the first place.
(regardless of if you're technically right/wrong)
What's more i work in a regulated industry. I'm fully aware of the consequences of a ccj (or whatever its called in scotland). There is no way I'd have ignored a letter from the court stating I owed cash, as I'd have 30 days to pay before it affected my credit rating.
Depending on who you work for, having a CCJ on your file could lead to bigger consequences and conversations with your employer.
(this would have been the case when I worked for HSBC)
Except you are missing the fairly critical point that I have the right to defend myself and wasn't afforded it.
Again, you're the one who has allowed it to proceed directly to court by not engaging with the CP firm.
They will hear the "It wasn't me and I'm not going to tell you who it was" excuse a hundred times a week, which is why you failed the appeal process, You should've at that point asked about what other forms of restitution there are, like Ombudsmen or a higher appeals process with a trades body. The fine would've stayed live, but wouldn't have gone to court, and you may even have got them to canx the fine, but you didn't do that, you just thought that would be the end of it.
They're not playing your game, you're playing theirs.
I will bet money to the value of TP's fine that the original letter/email they sent you asking you to pay up says something like "If you don't pay or tell us who it is driving, then it'll go to court". That's them giving you due warning of the process, at that point they don't have any responsibility to inform you of anything else. They can assume that if you're happy it's going to court that you'll pay attention to when that'll happen and show up accordingly. it's not their's or the court responsibility to do that for you.
I assume you didn't follow up the rejection ?
They originally wrote me a letter with the charge. I appealed online saying i wasn't the driver, they responded by email rejecting my appeal saying they'd assume I was unless i told then who was driving.
You should have followed it up as the 'computer' just said '**** him, the car didn't get there on it's own'. You need to follow things like this through until you get acknowledgement that the 'charge' has been cancelled - It's your car, your responsibility. Being 'pig headed' has ****ed your credit rating and now it's a pain to sort out.
It's surprisingly easy to miss a letter, given that it's mainly junk that arrives - I missed a speeding fine letter that my son acquired in a car that I was the registered keeper - only found out some months later when a 'reminder' arrived - I was very close to getting a large fine as I 'missed' the original note.
Fossy - yup this sounds like a 'I know i'm right so screw you' situation, except op screwed themselves by being an arse
All this thread needs is some appalling spelling and grammar and it would be just like Facebook...
this would have been the case when I worked for HSBC
I work for a bank. It'll make zero difference to me in my current role, and probably none if I go elsewhere. A ccj isn't reason to not employ someone , the context is ( I'm in a recruitment function so know about this). A 160 quid paid off fine isn't going to be an issue
It'll have an impact on my credit rating though
but you didn't do that, you just thought that would be the end of it.
Em nope. Don't presume to know what I thought.
I thought it would either be dropped or go to court. I was more than prepared to go to court. And in court I'd win, I'm 99% sure of that. The issue is I didn't receive the court invite as I should have
I suggest you read up on the application to repeal a decree rather than just spouting an opinion. It's there for exactly this reason, ie to challenge a judgement made in your absence.
I posted this thread hoping that a lawyer may chip in with some proper procedural advice. That's not been the case. Fortunately I've received some good direction elsewhere that has given me some reassurance I can remedy this through proper court procedure.
Standard process is:
Issue PCN
Issue reminder
Keeper appeals, appeal denied, code provided to take it to an independent appeals tribunal (POPLA is fairly independent, IAS is not.)
Regardless of how much the keeper engages, this is followed by letters from a debt collection firm.
That's followed by a letter of claim
Which is followed by court documents.
So either between issuing the PCN and rejecting the appeal tpbiker's address got changed at the PPC or for some reason those multiple letters somehow magically disappeared.
Bearing in mind the PPCs do a credit check before going to court to confirm they have a valid address (and to avoid sending letters to dead people which always guarantees bad publicity).
The PPCs don't want to go to court, it costs them money, they want you to pay up before that point hence the multiple threatening letters.
Anyway as others have pointed out, FAFO is served.
Fossy - yup this sounds like a 'I know i'm right so screw you' situation, except op screwed themselves by being an arse
Pipe down. I've not screwed myself. At worst I'll have a crappy credit rating until I pay off 300 quid. At best ill be able to come back to this thread and point out you are talking crap!
My opinion of parking charge companies is very low given previous experience. I'm not going to be extorted by them when legally I'm in the right.
You call it being an arse, I call it having a spine and refusing to be bullied
Let's see if the sheriff thinks I'm am arse before we start the online name calling..
So either between issuing the PCN and rejecting the appeal tpbiker's address got changed at the PPC or for some reason those multiple letters somehow magically disappeared.
Possibly at the exact time I sold the car
Although in scotland I don't think a debt collection letter can be sent before a court judgement
Either way I can guarantee that I haven't received multiple letters.
Good luck tp, and please keep us posted, if only to say I told you so.
At worst I'll have a crappy credit rating until I pay off 300 quid.
That you’ve had a CCJ will stay on your credit record for years - it won’t disappear when you pay.
That you’ve had a CCJ will stay on your credit record for years - it won’t disappear when you pay.
Yes it will you are correct and it's a minor inconvenience that I'll hopefully get sorted
It'll impact purchases that I use for interst free payments in the short term which is a hassle but hardly life changing.
Big ticket items like mortgages and car loans are not solely reliant on automated checks so as long as its not outstanding I should be grand. My credit history was excellent up until now ( tbf it's still showing as excellent on experian today despite the court order flagging) and I actually got a credit card approved about 5 hrs before I got a decline on a purchase I made.
So yeah, not ideal, but not end of world. Either way, there is a route to resolve this which I will take and hopefully sort it. If a recall is granted the record is wiped, and even if end up losing then I'd just pay and it wouldnt appear again
It might not be “illegal” (civil matter - sorry my lack of accuracy) but you are now in the one in the courts. That’s a legal matter.
So when you are in court and they ask “so who was driving” are you going to perjure yourself to deny knowing who was driving?
All this because the driver of your car didn’t pay a fine (which you don’t seem to argue was incorrectly issued). None of this seems worth the hassle.
We all make mistakes, forgot things or misjudge - whether it’s speeding or parking. Get a fine, pay it and move on.
We all make mistakes, forgot things or misjudge - whether it’s speeding or parking. Get a fine, pay it and move on.
The older I get the less hassle I need in my life. For the sake of a small fine, for a legitimate reason, I'd have paid it and "moved on". If I didn't want the parking company to have my girlfriends details then I'd have either just paid it myself or even subsequently got her to pay me back. However, it wouldn't have given us the drama/pram-toy ejection scenario that this thread has. It certainly seems like a lot of grief for no good cause.
So when you are in court and they ask “so who was driving” are you going to perjure yourself to deny knowing who was driving?
Of course not. My whole defense to the court is 'my girlfriend was driving'. Which she was. In scotland however, legally I don't need to disclose that information to a private company. If the court asks for it I'll give it, if the sheriff tells me to provide her details to the parking co (which is very unlikely given there is no legal requirement for me to do so) I'd tell them.
There is zero perjury required here. If I had been invited to the court this would be thrown out in minutes given I can absolutely prove I wasnt driving the car.
None of this seems worth the hassle.
Well if they'd invited me to court it would have been zero hassle at all, it's 5 min walk from my house and as nailed on a win for me as possible. It's only a hassle because I didn't receive the summons and I now have to go through the repeal process
So is it possible the dvla has provided the court with the address of the new owner? I'll check on Monday when it opens.
Unlikely given that they didn’t seem to have any problem attaching the claim to your name and address when it came to lodging it against your credit history.
I’ve read this thread and I’m baffled as to why you posted it in the first place. You kind of asked for advice but any time someone suggests something you just tell them they’re wrong and you’re right.
Seems kind of pointless to me.
Agreed. Skimmed a thread that started with a 'what are my options' and pretty much every subsequent post by the OP has been pretty chippy shouting down of folks attempting to contribute as requested. Odd.
Wow.... OP.... you're really not making friends here!
I'm struggling to understand why you didn't just pay the parking charge that was correctly issued.
First you say you wrote to them and then you say you've deleted all your sent emails*
An email can easily go missing or redirected so there's no way of you knowing that they got it.
If you had actually written [a letter] and done a recorded delivery you would know they had your response.
But given your existing low opinion of parking companies you probably didn't want to waste £2 on a written reply so thought you'd go the cheap route and may have paid the price.
I also can't see how you have not received any further letters from the parking company or the court.
* Who would do this??!
(Oh, and why are the parking company "absolute scum"?
They're doing a job, or do you think you have the right to park anywhere any time?)
I’ve read this thread and I’m baffled as to why you posted it in the first place. You kind of asked for advice but any time someone suggests something you just tell them they’re wrong and you’re right.
Seems kind of pointless to me.
Is this your first time here?
Oh, and why are the parking company "absolute scum"?
I'm not sure if I'd call them scum. But it's a business type that is largely "unregulated" which can cause issues.
I'm struggling to understand why you didn't just pay the parking charge that was correctly issued.
Once again, i am not liable for the ticket, the law is very very clear on that point
If you had actually written [a letter] and done a recorded delivery you would know they had your response.
But given your existing low opinion of parking companies you probably didn't want to waste £2 on a written reply so thought you'd go the cheap route and may have paid the price.
I also can't see how you have not received any further letters from the parking company or the court.
Or I could use the online application form they ask you to use..and if you'd bother reading the entire thread you'd have noticed I stated I have a response from them which outlines my appeal, so I'm completely covered on that front
Agreed. Skimmed a thread that started with a 'what are my options' and pretty much every subsequent post by the OP has been pretty chippy shouting down of folks attempting to contribute as requested. Odd.
In fairness the only advice received is folks chirping up with ' you should have paid' which, whilst maybe wise in hindsight, is entirely redundant advice now.
Not one person actually offered up advice on the the correct procedure to redress, which i discovered after I originally posted (from a friend who actually knows what they are talking about)
They're doing a job, or do you think you have the right to park anywhere any time?)
Once again, I didn't park anywhere hence why I shouldn't pay
you're really not making friends here!
I'm not on here to make friends! I was after useful practical advice. There have been about 2 posts of any use. The rest is just judgement on my choice not to pay up, false information, and folks that don't understand Scottish law.
So if anyone has any useful advice on the procedure to recall in a Scottish court bash on. If you just want to vent that I was an idiot for not paying then by all means carry on....just dont expect a civil response
Well that's the lay of the land.
Sadly I don't have any useful information for you. Sorry. But if I did, to be honest I think I'd rather shit in my hands and clamp than pass it on.
Happy New Year!