[Closed] Private ownership of firearms

And where do illegal guns come from?

The staggering hypocrasy of TandemJeremy beggers belief.

really? i thought it was a dead cert and pretty much guaranteed ❓

Elfinsafety - Member
I prefer the greater and far more macho thrill of fighting in pubs, rather than shooting something what can't fight back.

Go get a broken bottle, you don't know what you're missing.

You can prove yourself to be much more of a 'mayn' if you do so. Shooting animals is for pansies

OK

I get asked by the Police whether people are mentally fit for gun licences... and one of my colleagues previously lived and worked near Hungerford where.... etc etc...

[b]TJ's[/b] offensive and casual categorisation of all gun-users as Violent Fantasists and people who are only interested in killing has sadly obscured the fact that there are real issues in gun licensing...

In the past few years I have dealt with:

A bloke who was sane but blew his brain out with a shotgun when he found he had cancer... Not nice for his wife.
Someone who became suicidal and managed to access their partners gun cabinet and almost blew their head off...
Someone who still thinks that his threat to torch someone's house should not bar him from holding a licence..

In all these cases the holders were sane at the point of licensing.

I'm not sure what the answer is... but there is a real problem...

I assume this is irony because I doubt you have the back bone to do anything of the sort

You assume whatever you want. I genuinely, genuinely don't care. 😀

Don Simon- deffo the majority of criminal guns were never legal in this country they are either (smuggled) imports or crude modifications (and lots has been done to make modification of air weapons much more difficult recently)

Would this be a good time to talk about the shoot-'em-up video games which the Norvegian and German 'Colombine' shooters were fans of?

don simon - Member

And where do illegal guns come from?

Isn't there a failing in the system here? I would assume that all guns were once legal.

I assume this is irony because I doubt you have the back bone to do anything of the sort

In all these cases the holders were sane at the point of licensing.

I'm not sure what the answer is... but there is a real problem

Shorter periods between certification. Five years is too long, IMO. Not sure what interval would be "right", but I do think that five years is too long.

Isn't there a failing in the system here? I would assume that all guns were once legal.

all legal guns were/are effectively 'in the system' because of dealers registers (subject to yearly inspection), the application and granting (or refusal) of a 'variation' for a particular firearm and then the serial number being entered on the FAC by the police. so when handguns were banned they were either sold abroad with an export license or handed in to the police, logged then destroyed. so all firearms were traceable, you couldn't make them just disappear without having your collar felt by plod.

to become illegal they need to be stolen from a FAC holder or be illegally imported from abroad (the most likely source)

TJ's offensive and casual categorisation of all gun-users as Violent Fantasists and people who are only interested in killing has sadly obscured the fact that there are real issues in gun licensing...

Its the truth tho pretty much. Look at the people who are desperately defending gun use.

the only use of a gun is in killing things. IMO people who kill for fun are not mentally stable and should be banned from owning guns.

as for the violent fantasists - a few obvious ones on this thread and a couple of folk who know gun owners who fit the description.

IMO people who kill for fun are not mentally stable and should be banned....

Slightly tangential but does that mean that anglers are mentally unstable? (Nothing to do with whether a rod is an offensive weapon!!)

C'tain - I think you have a point about 5 years being too long.

Its the truth tho pretty much

No, it's not. It's your opinion. That does not make it the "truth", nor does it make it a fact.

Unless, of course, you have some FACTS to back up your assertion. (Rhetorical, BTW, as you don't)

TandemJeremy - Member
IMO people who kill for fun are not mentally stable and should be banned from owning guns.

as for the violent fantasists - a few obvious ones on this thread and a couple of folk who know gun owners who fit the description.

Aaaaaaand....... A professional, who's job it is to know these things, He's told you that you are talking bollx.

Yet somehow you know better ?

Mmmmm.

This is a pistol specifically designed for not killing things.

[IMG] [/IMG]

An exception that proves your rule wrong?

Stoatsbrother - I presume that you're a doctor from above comments.

I'm guessing here, but I suppose medical records become "tagged" in some way regards firarms - ie. when the initial approach is made by the police, and you're asked if there is any reason you know of [b]not[/b] to grant one regards mental health etc?

as such, I presume if someone who is a known SGC/FAC holder does come in discussing depression/MH problems etc, you are under a duty to inform Police of the issue [b]if[/b] you feel there is a risk?

is that the way it works, as if that is right, I wonder if even something like more regular renewals would make any difference?

do you think that the relationship between GP/firearms licensing deters FAC holders from coming forward if they are suffering from Mh problems, and is there a way round that at all?

"[i]the only use of a gun is in killing things[/i]"

Is constantly repeating things one knows to be untrue idicative of mental health issues? Is ignoring facts and information that don't support one's argument indicative of mental health issues?

Cant believe i missed this thread!

TJ is comedy gold, his trolling is so poor and obvious that it has become funny in itself, how dull must his life be?

I havent read all 9 pages so far but some thoughts:

The generalisation about 'violent fantasists' is ace....as others have said, certain 'right-on' posters on here will scream the place down if you make a generalisation about race, ethnicity, social class, wealth etc....but when they want to make a sweeping generalisation about something they feel strongly about then its all Kool and the gang.....you really couldnt make it up.

I also have a shotgun certificate, to be honest the gun doesnt get used much....couple of clay shoots during the summer and occasional rough shooting for birds when i can get a friendly land owner to let me use a field for an afternoon....i love eating meat and pheasant, pigeon, rabbit etc are great....virtually free when shot yourself and of course there's the satisfaction in being skilful enough to actually hit said animals while they are (usually) moving across the sky or field.

Being sensible for a minute i'm pretty sure that if you found out how many people held fire arms certificates or shot gun certificates and then found out how many of these owners end up shooting people then the likelihood of a gun owner ending up a homicidal maniac would be miniscule....but dont let the facts get in the way of a good knee jerk reaction eh?!

Finally, shoots can and do generate huge revenue....brother-in-law arranges them where he lives in Warwickshire and charges £1500 per person for a days shooting....8 guns per shoot, beaters to be paid, lunch at the local pub etc....its good money for him and some of it goes into the local economy too.

Ah, tags... Of all the people posting in this thread, I'm the only one that's tiresome

CaptainFlashheart - Member

In all these cases the holders were sane at the point of licensing.

I'm not sure what the answer is... but there is a real problem

Shorter periods between certification. Five years is too long, IMO. Not sure what interval would be "right", but I do think that five years is too long.

as for the violent fantasists - a few obvious ones on this thread and a couple of folk who know gun owners who fit the description.

If you're going to make such comments I think you need to start naming names rather than hiding behind generalisations. Doesn't reflect too well on you otherwise.
Obviously you run the risk of them being so mentally unstable that they will come round and shoot you though 🙂

Can't be arsed to read all this, but as usual TJ has an opinion which polarizes the posters. I have two shotguns and a .22 rifle. I'm sane, and I take the responsibility very, very seriously. I can see both sides. I think the chap who allegedly killed his family members would have done the same with a different weapon if his guns had been confiscated (which I think they should have been).

deviant - Member

Finally, shoots can and do generate huge revenue....brother-in-law arranges them where he lives in Warwickshire and charges £1500 per person for a days shooting....8 guns per shoot, beaters to be paid, lunch at the local pub etc....its good money for him and some of it goes into the local economy too.

Junkyard - Member

is your moral compass broken it takes backbone to attack someone with a bottle?

the only use of a gun is in killing things. IMO people who kill for fun are not mentally stable and should be banned from owning guns.

Maybe. But even your semantic pedantry can't get around the fact that plenty of people own guns with no intention of killing anything at all. Should they also be banned from owning them, or just the people who want to kill things with them?

SD-253

And you sound like the sort of person who would play that game as in I find hunting offensive ban it.....hypocrite

Is this your idea of debate?

You tell me what you think my response would be to a question you've not asked and then go one further by telling me that I'm a hyopocrite for holding that view?

As it happens I've no strong views either way on fox hunting, so would you like another go?

Northwind - Member

Ah, tags... Of all the people posting in this thread, I'm the only one that's tiresome

Not any more - but yo are both tiresome and awesome

TandemJeremy - Member

Not any more

😥

There is also a strong correlation between those who get pleasure out of harming animals and violent crime.

The very fact you enjoy killing should debar you from gun ownership.

THM

RPRT - you can have a difference of opinion without insisting on imposing your views on others and questioning the morality of those who disagree.

Which was the bit that "offended" you?

I had't really noticed that TJ has managed to "impose" his views yet.

So I guess you must be "offended" that someone might question the morality of gun owners.

Don't go listening to the moral maze any time soon - you might blow a gasket.

There is also a strong correlation between those who get pleasure out of driving motorbikes too fast and road deaths.

Anyone who rides a motorbike is mentally unstable and should be banned from owning one.

Or is that too much of a generalisation?

I had a number of firearms in my younger days, these were purely for target competition shooting.

Not killing things.

TJ can I ask how you can justify owning a crossbow? (If you actually do, or are you using it as a joke?)
Surely a crossbow is equally as dangerous with the added issue that they are relatively silent compared to firearms?
Can't be arsed to argue, just genuinely interested

Edit: Thought I would quote the bit just incase you wanted to deny it

TandemJeremy - Member

Northwind - the point about longbows is an interesting one and would require a bit of thought and you rightly pick up an inconsistency. It had never occurred to me before this debate. I think longbows are not attractive tot eh violent fantasists that like to own guns. I do have a crossbow tho
Posted 2 hours ago # Report-Post

Got as far as this,

TandemJeremy - Member

Yes

Recent gun murders like this have all been legally held guns.

there simply is no reason nor excuse for anyone to have guns except in some occasional circumstances such as farmers.

Everyone who holds guns without this sort of reason is the sort of person who should be denied a license

and already I've lost the will to live. How is it in your black white world TJ? Jeez yer a numpty sometimes!

TandemJeremy - Member
There is also a strong correlation between those who get pleasure out of harming animals and violent crime.

The very fact you enjoy killing should debar you from gun ownership.

Do you still enjoy driving dangerously on your motorbike? Should that bar you from haveing a driving licsense? Killed a kids lately?

RPRT - not looking for another pointless argument here. Re-read my original post - 'offensive to law abiding gun owners" not me. Its not necessary, simples!

No idea what the moral maze is, sorry!!

druidh - Member
That's a few highland estates going bankrupt then. I'll blame you when the deer population is further out of control and the resultant over-grazing denudes the land of the last vestiges of natural woodland.

Ask yourself this!
If after hungerford, all hobbyist types were banned from keeping guns. Would Hamilton have been able to kill so many at dunblane?
I believe he would'nt have, and if just one of those 'dead children' could have been saved by a ban, then a ban would be right and justified.

grahamt1980 - Member

TJ can I ask how you can justify owning a crossbow? (If you actually do, or are you using it as a joke?)
Surely a crossbow is equally as dangerous with the added issue that they are relatively silent compared to firearms?
Can't be arsed to argue, just genuinely interested

It was a souvenir from Malaysia my parents got in the 60s. Its not been pulled since the 70s. I suspect it would break if yo tried to pull it now - bamboo bow and rattan string So really a bit of a joke

SD-253

Tandem Tosser.

I don't know about anyone else, but I can think of one ban I'd impose on you.

Calm down dear.

steffybhoy - Member
Would Hamilton have been able to kill so many at dunblane?

Who knows? Maybe he would have made a bomb and done it that way?

You think it would be OK for a group of folk who've never handled a gun to come up to Scotland and take random potshots at the wildlife?

Fair enough

rightplacerighttime - Member
THM

So I guess you must be "offended" that someone might question the morality of gun owners.

Even if your argument holds up steffybhoy (which I doubt) where does your logic end? You would have to restrict large numbers of individual activities/possessions that in theory could cause the death of a child.

teamhurtmore - teh point is that guns are almost unique in their ability to kill easily from a distance and that there is very little justification for people to own guns - ie no utility for most gun owners.

No parallel that I can think of with anything else

rightplacerighttime - Member
SD-253

Tandem Tosser.

I don't know about anyone else, but I can think of one ban I'd impose on you.

On the bright side, there seems to be only one poster on this forum with obvious mental health issues and he, as luck would have it, doesn't own or want a gun.

THM

RPRT - not looking for another pointless argument here. Re-read my original post - 'offensive to law abiding gun owners" not me. Its not necessary, simples!

So you're not a gun owner, you just represent all of them?

Druidh, you sir are a genius! Bravo! 😆

Among people close enough to call friends I can count in tens those that have owned or still own firearms. Non has ever made inappropriate use of their firearms.

Among people close enough to call friends I can count in hundreds those that have owned or still own a car or motorcycle. Every single one has made inappropriate use of that vehicle at some time and #pause for a quick mental count# six have killed either themselves, somebody else or both. One I believe was a suicide.

Of course I should banned from this thread I disagree with the view of you and your fellow middle class "Liberal".

Why don't you try arguing the point instead of making wrong assumptions about "the sort of person" I must be?

the only use of a gun is in killing things.

Firstly - no it isn't. I know several (including one Olympic medal holder) competitive shots who have fired at nothing but paper targets for their entire lives and they are fine and happy normal people.

Secondly - those that hunt. Some hunt for food. The ability to kill your own food is something we have mostly forgotten how to do in this age of shrink-wrapped convenience. Those animals shot for the pot will have had a better life than the slabs of processed stuff you buy in your basket each week - or are you a vegetarian now?

thirdly - you are more than welcome to have your slightly scary isolationist flat earth fingers-in-ears opinion - but please, please stop going on about it. You are shamefully trolling and not even attempting to enter into any debate on the topic - you are relying on hyperbole and headlines rather than your normal desire for referenced evidence. You are the very worst in this thread that you despise most (when you have your other dogmatic head on)- one who can not and will not reason or be led to reason. Go out for a pint.

TJ - ok, some sense here. This is where the law makes an important distinction though. Shotguns are relatively short range weapons (poss less than your/other's crossbow). Rifles are very different and subject to much more stringent compulsion to demonstrate need of ownership to the police.

I can understand why the police make a distinction here but still feel that they are too onerous on those who have firearms for range shooting.

But TJ - put the 'real' danger of most legal guns against your story of the fast driving and ask yourself which is more likely to result in tragedy.

[RPRT - sorry weak attempt, not rising to that.]

guns are almost unique in their ability to kill easily from a distance

What exactly is the significance of "from a distance" which makes guns so unique? If you mean when not standing right next to somebody so that they're in a position to defend themselves, or being far enough away to have emotional detachment, then I can think of one obvious instrument which is used to kill several orders of magnitude more people than legally held guns which meets both of those criteria.

Zulu-Eleven - Member

I've got two guns, and permission for two more, and I've not shot anyone (yet) -

That should be more than enough information to form your opinions on

Note to self.
If I ever get into an interwebdingdong with zulu-eleven think twice before agreeing to a meet up 😉

the only reason for holding a gun that is not a tool is to fufuill violent fantasises. there is no other reason. People will attempt to justify its all about sport but its actually all about killing and blood lust.

How about you come round to my house and explain to my kids what their Dad, Auntie and Grandad are really like. Your ability to insult people with these broad sweeping and innaccurate statements is unbelievable.

Liberal as an insult - like it

Killing things is the only USE for a gun. shooting paper targets is just a pastime - there is no utility to it.

No one has given any good reason for anyone owning guns apart from a very small number of people who use them to kill vermin.

I do know and understand meat is animals. I have not lost that connection. I have butchered my own meat

Been away for a few hours and about seven pages. Do I need to read any of it or can I safely assume from the last few posts that the debates not really moved far?

I suggest you sign up for English lessons, TJ.

Killing things is the only USE for a gun. shooting paper targets is just a pastime - there is no utility to it.

Semantics! Woooo!

So, TJ, why am I mentally unstable? What are my "violent fantasies"? Do tell.

(Rhetorical, BTW, as you can't answer that with any conviction)

stevenmenmuir - Member
Your ability to insult people with these broad sweeping and innaccurate statements is unbelievable.

Killing things is the only USE for a gun

And despite asking, you've still not explained what exactly is wrong with killing things!

No one has given any good reason for anyone owning guns apart from a very small number of people who use them to kill vermin.

Weasely wording makes you look even more stupid.

Nobody has to justify their actions to you - you are coming over like Peter Dow, the Scottish Standard Bearer. You have the only view that is correct - you don't. I've not seen you this bad in a long time.

Of course I should be banned from this thread I disagree with the view of you and your fellow middle class "Liberal". I mean banning someone because they disagree with you is the definition of Liberal?

you are coming over like Peter Dow

hehehehe - I'm glad I'm not the only one who's noticed that similarity, I have posted it up a couple of times now without a bite 😀

[RPRT - sorry weak attempt, not rising to that.]

I was making a serious point (originally), which is that arguments about whether or not groups of people are "offended", or should be "offended" or might be "offended" at every opportunity doesn't do much to help debate, especially as the "offender" seems to be in a minority of one and isn't doing too bad a job of not taking offence himself.

What this thread needs is another bit of snappy analysis by overthehil.

And despite asking, you've still not explained what exactly is wrong with killing things!

Zulu earlier 😉
[img] [/img]

So - is anyone able to provide any actual justification or reasonable reason for owning guns other than killing vermin for the very few who have guns for that reason?

No one has done so yet other that "I like shooting things"

Violent fantasies are nothing to worry about if you're metally stable, or so the shoot-'em-up game sellers would have us believe. Like masturbation and an interest in "erotic art" it's not the kind of thing you'll admit to on a public forum but you won't find me taking offence if you call me a tosser.

So - is anyone able to provide any actual justification or reasonable reason for owning guns other than killing vermin for the very few who have guns for that reason?

No one has done so yet other that "I like shooting things"

Again...

So, TJ, why am I mentally unstable? What are my "violent fantasies"? Do tell.

(Rhetorical, BTW, as you can't answer that with any conviction)

Its not weaslly wording Tootall - its the pertinent point. NO one [i]has[/i] to justify themselves to me of course but to claim gun ownership as benign requires some explanation when people are regularly killed by legally held guns.

Other things that kill people such as cars have utility - it the vast majority of instances gun ownerships does not - the only think it is for society is a risk.

No one has done so yet other that "I like shooting things"

And that is not answer enough?

Don't try the utility bullshit

nobody needs to own a car - you've testified as much in numerous threads - you don't own a car do you TJ?
Similarily, nobody in the UK needs to eat meat, we could all happily survive on a vegan diet

your utility argument is utterly flawed, none of us NEED those things.

i think he may be saying there is no need to refer to someone as a tosser and no I was not being ironic earlier r eyou r moral compass. you said /implied it took back bone to attack someone with broken bottle still holding to this view? I just want to paint an accurate picture of your character ...I have rude and i assume admiration for senseless violence

I have rude and i assume admiration for senseless violence

regularly killed by legally held guns.

Again...

So, TJ, why am I mentally unstable? What are my "violent fantasies"? Do tell.

(Rhetorical, BTW, as you can't answer that with any conviction)

Oh CFH - you really want me to go into that?

1) fantasist - no one believes your persona and IIRC yo were pulled up on an invented military history for your self where you tried to big yourself up as having army exopereince you did not

2) violent - you get pleasure from killing whats more violent than that?

I don't know why you ar ementally unstable but eh evidence is that you invent tall tales about yourself and you enjoy killing. thatss anissue in my book

TandemJeremy - Member
So - is anyone able to provide any actual justification or reasonable reason for owning guns other than killing vermin for the very few who have guns for that reason?

No one has done so yet other that "I like shooting things"

Read my previous post along with TooTall post

Honestly, Get a Grip will you