I have generally had it with work, I have had one bad experience where employer "self-insured" and trying to get them to pay for things was a nightmare, they did all they could to avoid paying. I have had the chance to pay for it personally before but declined. The NHS is what we need to keep us alive but it's too overstreched to deal with all our ailments and requirements.
@aa why would you want to strangle me (or anyone else) because my employer offers something as part of my job ? In fact its a condition of employment, at the cr@ppy one above I tried to opt out and they refused.
I like the French system where most people in average jobs have top up private insurance policies and you pay at the point of treatment and reclaim.
All these people with private healthcare who are such big supporters of the nhs, make me want to strangle kittens with frustration.
Why does it bother you? Comprehensive NHS care is still "free" for everyone which I think is a good thing. But I don't see a problem with paying privately for additional cover. Obviously not everyone can afford it, but if the private system didn't exist, do you think the NHS would be any better as a result?
Anyway, it's not like you are opting out of the NHS completely by going private, it's just an additional resource if you wish to pay for it. So you can actually be a fan of both systems without being hypocritical. If I have a serious accident I'm off to A&E just like everyone else. If I need long term physio or a non-urgent op then I'll probably go private because I have chosen to pay for it.
Do you expect the private system to be laid on free for everyone and if so who is going to pay for it? Or would you prefer it not to exist simply because you can't personally afford it or have chosen not to spend your money on it?
For you socialists out there, my wife's family were brought up under a communist regime (mother-in-law is a Consultant) and the quality of healthcare in that system was largely dependent on who you knew. It was apparently great if you had good contacts in the healthcare industry and f****** dire if you didn't. Is that a more fair system than ours do you think?
@BoardingBob, yes interesting story. We don't trust someone to build an extension on our house without getting a few different quotes but we treat one visit to a Doctor as definitive. I make mistakes in my job all the time, I don't see why we think doctors are any different
@aa why would you want to strangle me (or anyone else) because my employer offers something as part of my job ? In fact its a condition of employment, at the cr@ppy one above I tried to opt out and they refused.
Readings not a strong point of yours is it.
Obviously not everyone can afford it, but if the private system didn't exist, do you think the NHS would be any better as a result?
Yes or if not better the political will would exist to tax more to pay for it. Obviosly this is a utopian dream and just like private education I would not be critical of an individuals choice I would prefer it if people who feel like they need private health care to jump the waiting list or companies feel they need to provide it to help employees made more of a political case for having equal healthcare for all.
Its makes me want to strangle kittens because people seem to add the "obviously I think the nhs is great" at the end of the post but the rest of the post shows that they are happy enough with it being a bit dysfunctional.
Yes or if not better the political will would exist to tax more to pay for it.
So you would be more than happy to pay more in tax for a better NHS system for all, but presumably you're not willing to pay for private health insurance on the principle that it's not fair?
Obviosly this is a utopian dream and just like private education I would not be critical of an individuals choice I would prefer it if people who feel like they need private health care to jump the waiting list or companies feel they need to provide it to help employees made more of a political case for having equal healthcare for all.
Writing is not a strong point of yours is it. If I read the above correctly are you saying I should be boycotting the private system and making a political statement instead? Well I don't want to be a politician, I just want the best medical care I can afford for my family. It's not even vastly expensive. Anyone in an average job could choose the same. Perhaps they might have to cancel their Sky subscription or cut down on beer and fags, but it's all personal choices. This is not some elitist system costing tens of thousands per year (private education is way more elitist in this respect).
You didnt read it correctly but the again I had three kids jumping on me when I wrote it so it doesnt make much sense.
to summarise I would be critical of anyone choosing whats best for their family I would just prefer it if people made more effort to support the nhs from a political point of view if they think its so good.
you would be more than happy to pay more in tax for a better NHS system for all, but presumably you're not willing to pay for private health insurance on the principle that it's not fair?
Willing to pay more tax yes, cant afford private healthcare though.
As for the rest I think your view of average may be somewhat incorrect. You were doing well until you started with the sky subscription crap. Always the right wingers master stroke of stupidity. Stick to reading the daily mail.
Willing to pay more tax yes, cant afford private healthcare though.
How much more tax? My PHI nominaly costs £600 a year, which I pay about £250 as tax.
I'd probably be happy paying the extra tax, trying to work out how much is making my head hurt as the £250 I do pay is tax, on top of the cost of the PHI to my employer.
I just think of it as another tax, like my student loan. I wanted more out of the system, so I'm paying more in. Everyone's welcome to make their own decisions.
Everyone is not welcome to make their own decisions though about paying for private health care if they cannot afford it. Not everyone can afford it.
I also dont follow how you pay for privaye healthcare through tax either. You've lost me there.
"obviously I think the nhs is great" at the end of the post but the rest of the post shows that they are happy enough with it being a bit dysfunctional.
Not happy with it being dysfunctional at all. What I am happy with is if I have a massive heart attack tomorrow, I'll be scooped up in an ambulance, taken to hospital and given excellent care.
I also dont follow how you pay for privaye healthcare through tax either. You've lost me there.
The premiums charged to an employer by the insurer are assigned a P11D value. You are then taxed on this P11D value as the private health plan is considered a taxable employee benefit.
I have it via work and it's compulsory (I think)
It's an insurance and if I didn't have it I wouldn't take it out. I would self insure put the same payments into a savings account and use it if I needed it.£300 per month over 5 years is £18k enough to pay for most things and you have the NHS to back you up anyway.
If you don't need to claim for a year or 2 you're better off.
£18k enough to pay for most things
Its really not. A complicated maternity will cost about 18k. Could be a lot higher and usually is. You also won't benefit from the discounts insurer gets and you'll be paying full price for treatment.
Everyone is not welcome to make their own decisions though about paying for private health care if they cannot afford it. Not everyone can afford it.
Yep, not everyone can afford everything. I for example cannot afford a Porche and a Ferrari, on my pay grade it's got to be one or the other.
Thankfully the NHS is great and free to everyone.
I also dont follow how you pay for privaye healthcare through tax either. You've lost me there.
What BB said, for whatever my employer pays for it, I have to pay more on top to HMRC,
Had it through work
Cancelled it 2 months ago after taxable benefit crept up to £1300
3 years before it was £600, company changed insurers and it started creeping up, whilst amount of cover decreased and excess rose.
The problem I had with it was work didn't tell you the value until it appeared on your P60 at the end of the year
I used it once to claim for some dental treatment, for that it was worth it but the revised policy effectively did away with it as it limited what you could claim for in a year and came with a £200 excess
What I'm saying is check the cover and excesses carefully
premiums charged to an employer by the insurer are assigned a P11D value. You are then taxed on this P11D value as the private health plan is considered a taxable employee benefit.
Blah blah blah...still have no idea what your are talking about!! Sorry.
I have it through work. Valued at c£500pa....get taxed on this via benefit in kind at the "appropriate" rate.
The NHS is like the spare ribs at a chinese buffet...there can never be enough supplied to cope with the demand of the needy who think that their £7 eat all you like contribution gets them all the prawns and fillet steak in blackbean sauce you can eat. It doesnt, someone has to pay if you want A* service. NHS is B- and thats still better than most of the world.
oh...I am a huge fan of what the NHS achieves with it limited resources despite being hamstrung by successive government policies.
anagallis_arvensis - Member
premiums charged to an employer by the insurer are assigned a P11D value. You are then taxed on this P11D value as the private health plan is considered a taxable employee benefit.
Blah blah blah...still have no idea what your are talking about!! Sorry.
Do you want pictures? Private health insurance through his employer means he pays more tax. Not a hard concept unless you are trying not to understand.
I have it through work for the family, initially through BUPA and now AXA. Wife had breast cancer last year and treated at the parkside in Wimbledon. Her initial diagnosis was via the NHS and that was super stressful. After surgery to remove the lump, the oncologist said no need for chemo as small lump with no lymph node involvement. BUPA however insisted she has the oncotype DX test, in the US to look further into the biological makeup of the lump. The test is not available on the NHS. Results came back as high risk of recurrence and she needed chemo.
The lesson here is that NHS is reactive, it fixes people at minimum cost and does not focus on prevention / cure. The private sector cannot afford to do that, as reccurrnces cost far more in the long term.
We will always have private, as long as it's available to us.
Oh, my P11D cost is nearly 3k! Has been even before the last got sick, but that is for all mod cons!
Do you want pictures? Private health insurance through his employer means he pays more tax. Not a hard concept unless you are trying not to understand.
NO just an explanation without any vitriol, obviously tough for you.
[quote=anagallis_arvensis said] Do you want pictures? Private health insurance through his employer means he pays more tax. Not a hard concept unless you are trying not to understand.
NO just an explanation without any vitriol, obviously tough for you.
Private medical insurance offered by an employer is viewed as a benefit by HMRC. As such they assign it a value which will be deducted from your annual tax free allowance. As your tax free allowance is being reduced then you end up paying more tax. That's it.
I get that thanks. Gping back to the original point, I didnt understand
How much more tax? My PHI nominaly costs £600 a year, which I pay about £250 as tax.
So his healthcare costs£350 but he pays £250 in extra tax? Does not compute.
There is no conflict between supporting the concept of "free at the point of delivery" healthcare and paying for an alternative. Of course, there is an obvious one if the suppliers of both are the same people, but my doctor friends have been playing and benefiting from that game for years.
Look on the supply side not the demand side if you want to spot conflicts and/or moral questions.
Does not compute
Ah, its the old STW classic "I have no idea what I'm talking about but I'll offer an opinion anyway"...
Most private clinics are too small to have an intensive care unit - so if even a standard operation has complications they ship you to a NHS hospital regardless..
its the old STW classic "I have no idea what I'm talking about but I'll offer an opinion anyway"...
I havent offered an opinion Ive asked for help in understanding something I dont know about.
There is no conflict between supporting the concept of "free at the point of delivery" healthcare and paying for an alternative.
A very sweeping statement and not one I agree with. The conflicts dont really lie with the individual but with how society see's the nhs. The more people have private health care the more its reason for existence is eroded. I would have no problem with people getting nicer rooms and better meals but better treatment for private patients undermines the whole thing.
The more people have private health care the more its reason for existence is eroded.
A very sweeping statement and not one I agree with. But one that supports adding economics, finance/tax (and justice) to the national curriculum?
😉
anagallis: In the example above, the cost (ie paid to the insurer) of insurance is £600.
This £600 is paid by the employer to the insurer.
The tax man sees this as payment...ie a cash value instead of actual wages of £600.
The tax man wants to tax this at the same rate as your income either 22% or 40% depending on income tax level.
He can't take this tax from the £600 directly, so they mess about with your tax code and claw it back over the year via PAYE income tax...ie out of your pay packet.
So for £600 a higher rate tax payer would pay £240 extra in tax over the year to allow for the benefit of £600 of insurance.
Understand now? 🙂
Yep got it, the way it was written didnt make sense to me I thought he meant 250 of the 600 was paid as tax not 250 was paid as tax on the 600.. blah blah
Private healthcare errodes why you need nhs ..... If anything it takes the burden off the nhs for the life threatening stuff id still want to be nhs for .....
I have nothing but good things to say about the nhs after the way they have treated my dad over the last 20 years - its very confusing being 10 and being told your 30 year old very active dad has had multiple heart attacks.
I view the private healthcare as for getting stuff fixed that is annoying or things nhs view as non time critical.
I had a frozen neck - went to see the doc , he said well by the time you get a physio on the nhs it will have sorted its self , i suggest you pay for private physio. I said oh i have bupa cover , he said great , your neck will be sorted by the end of next week , referral . Phoned , appointment made next day im in physio , 3 sessions and my necks fine.
But one that supports adding economics, finance/tax (and justice) to the national curriculum?
Its more relevant and useful than religion.
FWIW the it referred to the NHS so if you take the quote out of context it does look stupid.
The conflicts dont really lie with the individual but with how society see's the nhs. The more people have private health care the more its reason for existence is eroded.
I think most folk would agree that if you wish to erode the NHS what you do, and it is happening, is replace it[NHS] with private provision via creeping privatisation and more people using private healthcare. This is the conflict as we all know folk wont accept an absence of healthcare.
Free choice. I like the NHS but its limited resources dont give me the security and waiting times that I want/need. Is it wrong to pay extra to get into a separate queue? I am still paying for the NHS place, but am freeing it for someone else to take.
Some people on here really would have everything run from a politbureau with everything provided by the state.
Your choice is the entirely correct one. If I could get my family private health care I would. The problem is the nhs isnt providing a good enough service and I would rather that was fixed with more taxation than people needing private healthcare in order to get the care they need. If that makes me a dangerous socialist radical in your view I can live with that.
Is it wrong to pay extra to get into a separate queue?
Is it fair that you can better health care than someone else?
I am still paying for the NHS place, but am freeing it for someone else to take.
I dont think it always works like that and tbh you admit you are doing it for yourself rather than for society.
Some people on here really would have everything run from a politbureau with everything provided by the state.
Its much easier to make to beat that straw man argument than attack fairness. i assume that is why you made up that argument.
Likw a-a I would prefer we all get a better and equal service rather than just the wealthy.I am happy to listen to why this is unfair or wrong.
.I am happy to listen to why this is unfair or wrong.
So where do you draw the line? Everyone gets any and everything, private rooms for all, elective surgery. It would be great up the cost of bringing the system up to that level would be huge.
The NHS is being de-stabilised on a grand scale (for one thing, Parliament should pass an emergency act to revoke ruinous PFI contracts...) - and so it's hay-making time for private healthcare providers.
But they'll still ship you back into NHS acute care as soon as anything goes wrong.
I am still happy to listen so to repeat
Are you able to explain how it is fair that those with money get better health care or are you not able to explain why it is fair?
I dont think that has tried to answer this question tbh but it has side stepped it by posing questions.
FWIW i would imagine that any health care system, no matter how funded or delivered , would face the issues you raise so could you answer the question repeated above rather than distract with "questions"?
Comrade Junta-yard:
Yes I do think its fair that if I pay more I get more. Thats how economics works. You seem to believe that we could specify the "ultimate NHS" for all and somehow have the funds to pay for this as a country? I would support paying more into the NHS, but it will never have enough money put into it to be "the best there is", therefore it's free will if I and others (for the benefit of me, my family, not society) choose to spend some of the money we have earnt and paid taxes on for a better health care provision.
I put a lot into society and I believe in a civil society funded by a fair and progressive taxation system. I also believe that my family come first. No conflict of interest as I see it.
Interesting point about whether or not it is fair to get quicker access to health care if you are better-off. It's no more fair or unfair than the income differences between families. If you think about the health issues that poverty can bring, such as poor nutrition, inadequate housing (damp, lack of heating), etc, then surely we need to look at bringing people out of poverty as much as trying to fix the problem at the stage when the health problems have already developed?
I've been paying compulsory private health insurance through work for 13 years, and not always comfortable about being able to 'jump the queue' but I've just had a spinal fusion op done privately. My back problem was deteriorating, I was getting symptoms in my legs as well as back pain, but the nhs were not keen for a long time to even let me discuss the problem with a consultant. The surgeon told me that while the procedure was clearly not a medical emergency, I would have to curtail my sporting activities without it, so I went for it. This will keep me fitter, happier, and in better cardiovascular health in the long run.
'
Yeah, fairs a hard thing to define, but you sum it up well Vicky.
As humans I think we all have a self-interest streak, some more than others. For me thats why communism will never work, it goes against human nature to strive for better.
I also value the education and opportunities that society has given me. I earn my money from my own efforts, but its only possible for me to do that because society works. Therefore, if I take more out in salary etc then I think it fair that I pay more in for those less able to contribute. That to me is fair. Do I think it would be fair if everyone had the same? No. There will never be enough resources to give everyone everything, so give everyone a decent standard of living, good education and decent health from the state, but don't be deluded to think that the state can always give the best there is, and don't restrict free choice of those that want to pay themselves for something better.
When I 'signed up' to the NHS, I was not informed that there would be a 7 month wait for a shoulder op.
Is that fair?
Dont really understand why you think this country couldnt afford quality health care for all.
a-a: define what you mean by quality. Then tell me how much "quality" would cost more than current. Then tell me that "cost of quality"+x% would not be even better quality.
I support paying for a good NHS through taxation (and would support more funds going into it), but the reality is that there is always the +x% more that would make it EVEN better....and some people choose to pay this x% from their taxed income.
