[Closed] Posh and Posher: Why Public School Boys Run Britain

eh TJ?

try and keep up if you're going to join in.

Have any of the downtrodden masses here ever tried to enter the areas they regard as the exclusive domain of the 'toffs' and been refused because of their social status....

Yeah, and it pissed me right off.

Mind you, I never really wanted to go in ...........and I guess that if I'm honest, they [i]did[/i] have a point.

Im dying to know which St James club refused Ernie 🙂

They'd have a better idea than someone with a PPE degree from Oxford who's never actually been on a train.

Transport policy is more than just trains - I'd want someone in charge of transport who is capable of absorbing and processing a great deal of information from a large number of sources and then using that information to formulate policy.

I really should invite Ernie to lunch at my club sometime. Would be most amusing to see him have to put on a tie.... 😉

Transport policy is more than just trains - I'd want someone in charge of transport who is capable of absorbing and processing a great deal of information from a large number of sources and then using that information to formulate policy.

this argument is surely more about the social divide and the infrastructure that ensures that the gap remains in place..

accusations of inverted snobbery and prejudice may well fall on deaf ears as that gap provides a very effective barrier for empathy..

A professional politician is ONLY employable outside of westminster BECAUSE of cronyism* and the expectation of influence.

*note to TJ & Ernie: Cronyism =/ Eton Alumni, just for the avoidance of any doubt....

accusations of inverted snobbery and prejudice may well fall on deaf ears as that gap provides a very effective barrier for empathy.

Long may it survive. It's the only reason these arguments on STW can be counted on to while away a dull night on saturday TV...

Stoner - Member

but dont you see that's it's inevitable a_a?

TandemJeremy - Member

Ah - so its just "the natural order" is it now stoner. We need to bow down to our lords and masters and just accept the crumbs for their table?

I really think you do need a shovel - or is it a lifebelt by now

You keep contradicting yourself adn coming up with ever more ludicrous arguements.

Would be most amusing to see him have to put on a tie

Wouldn't be a wise move........the choking effect it's likely to cause, would probably make me gob on their carpet.

The accusation of inverted snobbery - politics of envy etc- gets mentioned whenever anyone complains about the lack of a meritocracy in this country. it is almost always made by people who support/defend this iniquity to people who have very little interest in joing the other group and want only for fairness to prevail.

TJ, you're foaming again.

How do you get to :
"We need to bow down to our lords and masters and just accept the crumbs for their table?"

from me saying "that [it's inevitable that] interest groups influence the political landscape?"

my club

No...it's just too easy.

I am coming round more and more to the idea that Ernie and CFH are actually the same person - and is called Charles Pooter

Stoner - your argument now seen me to be that its inevitable that the old boys network of public school educated rule the country, we can do nothing about it thus we merely have to accept it

Your comparison of the bullingdon club and its like and the tuc is laughable - whoo holds the reins of power?

I think this is a new high for STW - I have never seen such floundering

*cue personal attack on me - again*

it is almost always made by people who support/defend this iniquity

there's a word for that sort of person..

yo rarguemnet now seenms to be that its inevitable that teh old boyuys network of public school educated rule the country, we can do nothing about it thus we merely have to accept it

errrr, no.

You know it's no fun arguing with someone who invents one's own posts.

I could bore everyone else for your benefit by quoting the posts I made about "inevitability" and to what I was applying it, but you can get off your lazy arse and go read them yourself rather than make shit up again,

Play nicely (old) boys.

Direct quote from you in context Stoner

so its not inevitable then that the old boys network grab the power and the wealth?

So far you have tries to argue that the old boys network does not exist

That it exists but is everywhere including down the pub and in the unions

That its inevitable and we must accept it

That its not inevitable?

Stoner - seen earlier today
[img] [/img]

I shall just leave you to wibble away in your own brand of illogic.

Not at all Stoner. But only a deluded person would believe that there was no "Old boy network" between bankers, politicians, etc, who were formerly pupils of Eton.

I'd say there's more of an "old boy network" within social class, not school.

FFS TJ you are stealing my typo style I protest
EDIT; EDITING is cheating

You might be right TJ - This whole old boys network thing is nearly as deep seated as the international Jewish conspiracy 😉

You're fabricated post TJ

Stoner - your argument now seen me to be that its inevitable that the old boys network of public school educated rule the country, we can do nothing about it thus we merely have to accept it

My original post:

but dont you see that's it's inevitable a_a?

To be "in power" requires a machine to get you there. Whether it's based around the TUC, Notting Hill, the Fabian Society or the CBI.

Im referring to all interest groups managing the democratic landscape.

it has nothing to do with an "old Boys Network".

You will continue to think you're right. That [i]you[/i] think that [i]I[/i] think and say something different from what I actually type.

You are a silly Walter Mitty of a man.

It was enjoyable in here until you started being a tit.

Sorry a_a, ernie, et al. I was enjoying that.
Im out of here now.

I am coming round more and more to the idea that Ernie and CFH are actually the same person - and is called Charles Pooter

[i]Pooterism

noun

1.[b] taking yourself grotesquely seriously[/b].[/i]

Me in a nutshell really - innit ?

Wasn't binning Assisted Places (ie, getting the "poor" into the best schools) somewhere near the top of Labour's to do list in 1997?

I dare say a nice contribution to a new sports field or science lab goes quote a long way in getting you child accepted at such places...

I don't think it would. I know a few people involved in Cambridge uni admissions and I don't think they'd stoop to that kind of thing.

If anything it's the reverse - if you apply to Cambridge or Oxford [b]today[/b], and have good 'A' levels but come from some wretched sink estate, you've a better chance of getting in than some chinless wonder from a public school.

Ernie -you are not really a frustrated lower middle class middle aged clerk?

Stoner - no I read and understand exactly what you type - I just point out the inconsistencies in it.

That you think that I think and say something different from what I actually type.

Wasn't binning Assisted Places (ie, getting the "poor" into the best schools) somewhere near the top of Labour's to do list in 1997?

Ernie -you are not really a frustrated lower middle class middle aged clerk?

Well OK, but wouldn't you be frustrated too ........... if you were a lower middle class middle aged clerk ?

Too much "middle" and too much "lower" .........not good 😐

I want something a bit more on the edge, and maybe even higher.

🙂

Reading this has made me realise I'm really not using my background properly. Can someone tell me who I need to talk to to make full advantage of it. I've never got asked which school I was at. Should I wear a badge or did miss the class where they explained the secret handshake.

Seriously, politics - muppets on all sides with few scruples. What a suprise that they give jobs to their mates. Sort out education so all have access to good education and it'll still be networking that rules politics.

In real world jobs people care about what you can do for them performancewise, not where you went to school.

if you apply to Cambridge or Oxford today, and have good 'A' levels but come from some wretched sink estate, you've a better chance of getting in than some chinless wonder from a public school.

Official figures show that in 2008-9, 54.7% of Oxford's new undergraduates were from state schools. At Cambridge, 59.3% of new students were.

About 17% of sixth-formers in England are educated in the private sector

Students from private schools are 55 times more likely to get a place at Oxford or Cambridge University than state school students who receive free school meals, according to a report published yesterday.

At the most selective universities, including Oxbridge, less than 1% of the intake are pupils on free school meals, who made up 5.5% of the broader student intake – or approximately 10,000 students

fred using tags for personal attacks

I posted the 'Stoner pwned' one. Because it's actually true. And?

Stoner - Member
You're fabricated post TJ

I see someone obviously din't go to Eton....

I went to Eton once. A very nice lady looked after my bike while I nipped into a shop to buy a pasty. I then cycled over to Windsor and had a spliff by the Long Walk.

Which was nice....

Elitism is in the blood of the English. No sooner does a "commoner" earn a few bob more than his neighbours does he start to think himself better than them. It goes all the way to up to the Royals.

Christ, I'm turning into a socialist republican revolutionary. [b]Smash the system![/b]

I went to private school before leaving at sixth form to attend a far superior state sixth form college (Peter Symonds, Winchester).

LOLtastic class warrior types seem to think that Britain is the only country in the world with a private school system. I only attended private school due to the fact that my (working class) father was an army officer and moved jobs every couple of years, thereby rendering conventional schooling impossible.

For what it's worth I would have far preferred to attend state schools and live in one town/city throughout my childhood.

I met good and bad people in both the private and state school systems. I drive a Volkswagen Golf, but don't lose sleep over the fact that other people are driving around in an Audi RS4.

People can spend their post-tax income on whatever they like.

The British class system is like a cancer to prosperity. It stifles growth and prevents people from being socially mobile. It's a big demotivator.

I spent time at private school and because the regine was so harsh, much of the school rebelled. There weren't a huge number of proper toffs there, but it was a rubbish environment for learning and the management foisted all sorts of rubbish teachers on us. Many left and went to state school, myself included. It was a waste of money IMO.

The toffs that are closing off opportunity need to watch wha they are doing. If they aren't careful, people will see them for what they are: a bunch of useless supercislious arrogant upper class twits. There will be massive civil unrest and they will get their lights put out!

The UK need a meritocracy of hard working people who arent in control due to privilidge and class!

#
Spongebob - Member

The British class system is like a cancer to prosperity. It stifles growth and prevents people from being socially mobile. It's a big demotivator.

I spent time at private school and because the regine was so harsh, much of the school rebelled. There weren't a huge number of proper toffs there, but it was a rubbish environment for learning and the management foisted all sorts of rubbish teachers on us. Many left and went to state school, myself included. It was a waste of money IMO.

The toffs that are closing off opportunity need to watch wha tthey are doing. If they aren't careful, people will see them for what they are: a bunch of useless supercislious arrogant upper class twits. There will be massive civil unrest and they will get their lights put out!

The UK need a meritocracy of hard working people who arent in control due to privilidge!
Posted 24 seconds ago # Report-Post

Piss poor SPG. See me.

Elfin, yesterday:

[img] [/img]

I only attended private school due to the fact that my (working class) father was an army officer and moved jobs every couple of years

Those sorts of schools aren't really the ones under discussion here though are they?

Boarding schools that welcome working class forces kids are kind of the tesco value private schools no?
I went to visit one when I was 'between schools for an indiscretion..'

After interviewing my stepfather to see if he had the cash.. The Headmaster took us out onto his viewing platform.. where he luxuriated in his fifth glass of cheap scotch that morning as we watched a pair of youths administer a brutal beating with cricket bats to a third youth.. (on the rugby fives court)

Having come from a semi-rural state funded community college that was full of asbo kids.. farmhands and gypsies I was a bit horrified at his complete lack of concern..

'boys will be boys' he slurred with a grin as we watched the PE master saunter over to help the semi-conscious and badly bleeding victim indoors to get patched up by the matron..

EDIT: I got the place as it goes.. but got asked to leave after a couple of terms for being a disruptive influence 🙁

Come on someone tell me, firstly WTF is rugby Fives, and secondly just what does Stoner think an Old Boys Network is?

is it
a. Inevitable.
b. Non-existent
c. Nothing to do with if you went to a fee paying school.
d. Something to do with cronyism

fives is a bit like squash but without a racquet

bravohotel9er - Member

LOLtastic class warrior types seem to think that Britain is the only country in the world with a private school system.

And yet I can't see where anyone has said, or even suggested, that Britain is the only country in the world with a private school system.

Still don't let that bother you ......... carry on laughing at imaginary posts 🙂

Can you be working class and an army officer at the same time?

tron - Member

Can you be working class and an army officer at the same time?

Depends upon your definition of class but by most definitions no.

Depends upon your definition of class but by most definitions no.

I think most people wouldn't describe a Brigadier, which is what we are talking about in this case, as a "working class lad".

bravohotel9er tends to be fairly relaxed about the truth.

lol

Elfin, yesterday:

Is that seriously the best you can do? Post the inevitable, clichéd picture of Wolfie Smith, whenever someone presents 'left-wing' type views? 🙄

Can you be working class and an army officer at the same time?

Well, the Royal Air Force were very keen on recruiting me when I left uni, cos I is an Efnik, had a degree and was perfect for their campaign to try and recruit more Efniks. I was offered a CO position, after basic training and that. I turned it down as they wouldn't let me to photography.

So, I spose a working class person could become an ossifer.

Can you imagine me in't Air Force? I'd get a Chinook and fly down the Thames! 😀

[img] [/img]

I hear McDonalds are going to start selling degrees.

With fries and a large drink: £3.99!

Can you be working class and an army officer at the same time?

Possible. More to the point, how many Eton pupils do you find in the ranks ?

I was offered a CO position,

just curious whats a CO position?

working class and an army officer well depends on how you define working class but there are plenty of officers in all the services from council estates (if that is how you define working class ) maybe not in the blues and royals

CO = Commissioned Ossifer, as opposed to NCO = Non Commissioned Ossifer.

The difference being, as I understand, is that the armed forces will recruit graduates/those from 'good' schools into the ossifer ranks, whereas the highest rank someone can achieve coming in at the 'bottom' is that of an NCO. Well that's how it was explained to me anyway.

So yes, there is a class divide within the armed forces, and I'd hazard a guess that the top ossifer ranks are possibly slightly bereft of those form poorer backgrounds, who din't have the academic qualifications/good school credentials.

S'always bin that way really, hasn't it? Regardless of whatever waffle the likes of Stoner can come up with. Working Class = Cannon Fodder. Middle/Upper Class = those who order the Cannon Fodder to their potential deaths. Of course there are those from the Commissioned Officer ranks who have seen proper action, but I doubt very much that the armed forces risk losing their elite in the heat of battle.

Our Class system is what divides our society, for the worse. Public Schools, the Armed Forces, Religion, etc etc are all institutions which help perpetuate this divide. For good reason; those with wealth and power want to remain in their privileged positions, and will manipulate society in order that the Status Quo is maintained.

and I'd hazard a guess that

Which is all it is really, given your level of knowledge of the military rank system probably comes from a cursory glance at a cope of Flashman (before putting it down in disgust due to the severely racist and sexist overtones)

Perhaps instead of spouting forth about the class status within the armed forces, you'd be better to actually meet some soldiers? or perhaps consider reasons why the losses in pretty much every war the British army have ever fought in have been disproportionately high in officers?

I have done, Zulu. Some pretty senior officers amongst them, actually. Who've basically said more or less what I have. Y'know; people with [i]real[/i] experience, like.

given your level of knowledge of the military rank system [b]probably[/b] comes from a cursory glance at a cope of Flashman

There you go again; assuming stuff based on your own narrow-minded prejudices, as usual. 🙄

Next.

Who've basically said more or less what I have

Yeah, bet they did 🙄 - did they also discuss that that in two of the last three major campaigns fought by the British Army they've lost a Lieutenant-Colonel, a rank that commands over 800 men, in the field? you know, at that rank, one would have thought that the'd keep those elite commanders well clear of the cannon fodder, let alone discussing the fact that even in WW1, losses of British h'officers were roughly twice those of other armies, and proportionately 50% higher than losses of other ranks

(BTW Fred, thats pronounced [i]left[/i]tenant-Colonel 😉 I'm presuming they didn't teach etymology of ranks at scumbag college )

Blahty blahty blah.

Bored with you now. Bye.

Bored with you now. Bye.

caught bullshining and runs away, hardly officer material 😆

Not at all. Another one who assumes too much and knows f-all.

Zulu isn't interested in sensible discussion; he's only interested in satisfying his own ego by attempting to belittle others and making himself look clever. Which never really works tbh. Can't be bothered wasting my time justifying myself to someone who seldom shows others respect on here. Sorry, but that's the way it goes. If you don't like it, tough.

Hahahahaha! Is that your ball you're running off home with there Fred?

[img] [/img]

Blimey, some thick cut chips in here these days.

he's only interested in satisfying his own ego by attempting to belittle others and making himself look clever

😆

Another one who assumes too much and knows f-all

So you're not making any assumptions at all about the extent of my knowledge are you....

...doble pwned, tag that 😈

It's not funny HD. A bit sad, really. 🙁

Elfinsafety - Member
Is that seriously the best you can do? Post the inevitable, clichéd picture of Wolfie Smith, whenever someone presents 'left-wing' type views

No, it just seemed paticularly apt.

The difference being, as I understand, is that the armed forces will recruit graduates/those from 'good' schools into the ossifer ranks, whereas the highest rank someone can achieve coming in at the 'bottom' is that of an NCO. Well that's how it was explained to me anyway.

It was explained to you wrong. None of what you've just written is correct.

Working Class = Cannon Fodder. Middle/Upper Class = those who order the Cannon Fodder to their potential deaths

Also wrong.

There you go again; assuming stuff based on your own narrow-minded prejudices, as usual.

To be fair, you did give that impression with the duff information you gave up there. If officers have confirmed what you've said, they're either lying, or dense.

So yes, there is a class divide within the armed forces, and I'd hazard a guess that the top ossifer ranks are possibly slightly bereft of those form poorer backgrounds, who din't have the academic qualifications/good school credentials.

I would be intrigued to know how you intend to select people to undergo officer training?

Oh, and nothing to do with the old boy network in the armed forces. Certainly within the last 40 years recognition and rank is based on hard work and achievement.

Elfinsafety,

Congratulations, you've finally moved me to register and post. I am a serving RAF officer, and what you write is tripe. This bit

S'always bin that way really, hasn't it? Regardless of whatever waffle the likes of Stoner can come up with. Working Class = Cannon Fodder. Middle/Upper Class = those who order the Cannon Fodder to their potential deaths. Of course there are those from the Commissioned Officer ranks who have seen proper action, but I doubt very much that the armed forces risk losing their elite in the heat of battle.

is particularly offensive. Like Zulu says, junior officers top the casualty lists in percentage terms all the way from the Napoleonic Wars to the present day. Highest British rank KIA in WW1 was a Brigadier, IIRC. The tired old cliche of a cabal of extravagantly moustached upper class types in big trousers casually ordering thousands to their deaths from a posh hotel miles back is simply not true. Except for the moustaches and trousers. So don't go bandying your chippy prejudices around, it's an insult to their memories.

Modern Armed Forces recruitment is genuinely meritocratic, as far as any system staffed by human beings can be. There are academic requirements for commissioned entry for school leavers, but serving non-commissioned ranks can apply for commissioning and if they're good enough, they'll get it. About 20% (guess) of RAF Officer Training entrants come from the ranks. They do every bit as well as those who went straight for the commission. One of my Station Commanders, a Group Captain, was an ex-ranker. So

the highest rank someone can achieve coming in at the 'bottom' is that of an NCO.

There may be a few of the posher army regts where commissioning from less priveleged backgrounds is passively discouraged, due to posh blokes tending to enjoy the company of other posh blokes and likewise for the less posh. I don't have direct experience of this so I can't really comment, but I'm pretty sure that if you really want to be an Cav/Guards officer despite a poor background, nobody's going to stop you. You might struggle with the mess bills, though.

For the record, my background is (probably) lower middle class, I've got a degree, and I went to a mediocre comprehensive. I have had subordinates posher than me and superiors less so.

And CO=Commanding Officer.

Edit: And lots of other people have beaten me to it. If it's trolling, it's good trolling.

Congratulations, you've finally moved me to register and post.

every turd has silver lining. Glad you're joining in, hope to see more posts from you.

I am a serving RAF officer, and what you write is tripe

you get used to it. Most just ignore it now.

It was explained to you wrong.

Well it was a RAF officer at their recruitment place what used to be on the Strand. And it isn't actually wrong; the entry requirements for COs are A-levels standard or higher. The vast majority of COs in the British military are university educated. Is it possible for an NCO lacking such educational qualifications to rise to the highest echelons of the military? Wasn't the impression I was given.

Certainly within the last 40 years recognition and rank is based on hard work and achievement.

Oh of course. I mean, this chap rose up through the ranks from the very bottom, din't he?

[img] [/img]

Well it was a RAF officer at their recruitment place what used to be on the Strand.

He was wrong.

And it isn't actually wrong;

Yes it is.

the entry requirements for COs are A-levels standard or higher. The vast majority of COs in the British military are university educated.

Correct. Your problem with this is? Certainly most are university educated, although not all. Any university will do, and it has nothing to do with what school you went to.

Is it possible for an NCO lacking such educational qualifications to rise to the highest echelons of the military? Wasn't the impression I was given.

Again, wrong. It's possible.

I am a serving RAF officer, and what you write is tripe

Name the top serving officers of the British Military who rose up through the ranks from the very bottom. Go on.

Y'know, the Cheif Air Marshalls, the Brigadiers, the Admirals, the Commodores. That lot.

There may be a few of the posher army regts where commissioning from less priveleged backgrounds is passively discouraged, due to posh blokes tending to enjoy the company of other posh blokes and likewise for the less posh.

So Class [i]does[/i] have an influence within the Military then? Thank you for supporting my claims. 🙂

The class system "glass ceiling" does not exist.

Prove it.

Elf - stop digging.

The original point which brought the military and class into this was that bravohote9er claimed you could be an army officer and working class which is clearly wrong by any rational standard.

Like many professions entering it automatically makes you middleclass. You might be from a working class background but once you are an officer you are middleclass - unless you already were a member of the aristocracy

Same as teachers, doctors, lawyers and all sorts of professions

omg, it's like arguing with a brick wall!!

Time to talk to my 2 year old on skype now. I'll get more sense out of him and he uses a hair brush as a mobile. I'll check back in 20 minutes and see how deep this hole is you've dug elfin.

Elf - stop digging.

I'm not digging. In fact, I've been proven correct, that Class has an influence in how a person might progress within the Military (and indeed many other paths in life). It's just that no-one else seems to have the balls to say it. To say a person can rise to the top regardless of background is purely hypothetical; a myth sold to those who want to believe it.

If I were to join the military, I'd never rise to the very top, as people like that bloke above would always have a privileged path above me. This is a fact borne out by the truth; that the very top positions in our society are almost exclusively occupied by those from privileged backgrounds. I haven't seen any coherent argument against that, just a load of waffle. Believe the hype if you want; I'll choose instead to look at the reality.

This has nothing to do with 'class envy' or any other crap people might suggest. It's the reality of our class-driven society.

Anyone mind telling me what active service this lady has ever seen? (She's Head of the UK Armed Forces, in case you din't know...)

[img] [/img]

To get to the very top, you need to spend no more than 3-4 years in each rank, assuming promotion to Lt Cdr/Maj/Sqn Ldr aged 30. Therefore, if you commission aged 28 for example, having been a non-commissioned soldier/sailor/airman, you simply don't have time. This may well be a fault of the military command/promotion structure, it's widely criticised. It is, however, nothing to do with class.

Prince Charles is hardly a typical and representative example of a commissioned officer.

"Vast majority" university educated? Maybe, but an unscientific poll of my workplace = 9 officers. 4 came up through the ranks and don't have degrees, including the boss. 2 of the junior ranks have degrees. Is that meritocratic enough?

Her Maj was in the Army, in as much as a woman could be at the time. See also Princes Andrew, Harry, William. If you want to question the military credentials of an upper-clas family, you've picked the wrong one.

And CO = Commanding Officer.

I'm not digging. In fact, I've been proven correct

And that there, ladies and gentlemen, is proof that Elfin will never back down. Never admit he's wrong. That he will argue a futile point in the face of overwhelming evidence and experience to the contrary. He is either trolling 100% of his time on here, or he is 100% convinced of his own magnificence.

On that basis, I'm out. You win Elfin.

And that there, ladies and gentlemen, is proof that Elfin will never back down. Never admit he's wrong. That he will argue a futile point in the face of overwhelming evidence and experience to the contrary.

But the thing is, I haven't bin proven wrong. where is this 'evidence to the contrary'? Hmm? Where is the [b]proof[/b] that a proportionate number of top military officers came from 'ordinary' backgrounds (IE, not public shool/Oxbridge type thing)? The overwhelming majority, if not all, come from 'privileged; backgrounds. And you know I'm right on that. The idea of a 'meritocracy' in the Military etc is little more than just that, an idea. There is little evidence to support this as 'fact'.

Name the top serving officers of the British Military who rose up through the ranks from the very bottom. Go on.

Y'know, the Cheif Air Marshalls, the Brigadiers, the Admirals, the Commodores. That lot.

Answer this question please, before slagging me off.

Thing is, you all know I'm right, ultimately. It's an inconvenient truth.

You're right on one point elfin - if you were to join the military you would never rise to the top.

Elfinsafety - Member

Anyone mind telling me what active service this lady has ever seen?

You're out of order Elfinman..........bringing Her Majesty into your silly argument.

..........begging Your pardon Ma'am

Prove it.

I don't have stats to hand, I don't know if they exist, but given that I'm a non-posh bloke, in the military, I think my instincts on this can be trusted, no? Whereas you're not in the military, so you're trading on the equivalent of what some bloke in a pub told you years ago.

And you've ignored my point on time constraints.

Elfinsafety - Member
If I were to join the military, I'd never rise to the very top

wouldn't last a year, not made of the 'right stuff' 😆