You can get into fee paying schools if you are poor. You have to be exceptional though to get a scholorship.
Hmmm, used to have Assisted Places which I benefited from, not sure what the criteria was for getting one of those though.
[i]You can get into fee paying schools if you are poor. You have to be exceptional though to get a scholorship. [/i]
Yep, I had the Assisted Places scheme as well. It was the incentive for me to work/study as best I could to ensure I got a place at a school that, as I mentioned in my first post, gave the most opportunities and the best education. Demand for the limited Assisted Places and Scholarships on offer was incredible so the school naturally selected on ability.
Also, +1 for what Mikeypies says ^^, there's a lot more to this than just comp vs public.
Elfinsafety
Rather than pick on private schools why not put your efforts into ensuring that the state school system is improved - and its not more money - as has been seen, its more a appropriate education.
In the small town that I grew up in we had the Grammar School for those that past their 11+ and the Modern School for those that didn't. The Modern included the usual subjects plus had extensive workshops and 'technical' lessons, while the Grammar still taught Latin.
This enabled the bright kids to climb the ladder get to Oxbridge etc and at the other end of the spectrum, gave the kids a chance to get a decent education and life-long skills.
There wasn't a private school nearby, and why did we need one?
Now go forward 30-40 years... depressing isn't it?
Oh, and the only one who has a 'choice' is the one paying the bill.
Surely the issue isn't that they are 'posh' or went to public school, it's the fact they are crap! Any decent alternatives to be voted for?
Can't help thinking this obsession with people perceived as 'posh' is unhealthy and a red herring.
I don't see any sense in abolishing the private schools. Why would you do that ? Why abolish a system that produces fantastic education.The problem lies with access to it. I went to an inner city comp after taking and passing the entrance exam for the King Edwards public school in B'ham. Sadly for me I got a more than good enough score to enter but not quite good enough to win one of the few scholarship places. I left that comp five years later without a single CSE let alone an O' level. Comps drag down - not pull up. A few ( 6 IIRC )of my contemporaries in the class of 81 made it to uni. ALL of them came from middle class homes with proffesional parents who had also been to uni. The rest of us, shafted by Labour's disasterous education policy, left to join the Tory dole queues. Marvelous.
Grammar schools and the meritocracy they create are clearly the way forward along with more funding for a massive increase in scholarships at the top public schools.
There are too many state schools who do not push their students and many teachers,heads,deputys etc who are just going through the motions they claim to be professionals but arnt instead they just do enough.Some staff in schools are superb and are worth everything they get paid.
Not saying this isnt the case somewhere but what evidence do you have for this?
Those talking about Grammar schools and secondary moderns seem to me to not understand how streaming works in schools or have a handle on the wide range of subjects and courses taught in most comps, I teach 3 different courses to 3 different types of kids of GCSE age and thats just in science. How would a Grammar school be better unless of course its able to be better funded which implies the secondary moderns would suffer?
I left that comp five years later without a single CSE let alone an O' level. Comps drag down - not pull up.
Its a fact that as everyone has been to school everyone thinks they are an expert. Your experience may just be a tad out of date!!
Can't help thinking this obsession with people perceived as 'posh' is unhealthy and a red herring.
I agree. Unfortunately most of the electorate has a predisposition to prefer their politicians to have received privileged education.
Someone who has received private education is much more likely to be selected as a Labour candidate than someone who hasn't. The reason for this is quite simple - people are more likely to elect a Labour MP if he or she has been privately educated. I have no doubt that Tony Blair would have been less popular had he not sounded like what he was - the product of a highly privileged boarding school education. A Scottish comprehensive educated Tony Blair would have stood zero chance imo.
Of course people are then bewildered as to why their politicians appear to be so out of touch with them.
Its a fact that as everyone has been to school everyone thinks they are an expert.
no, just relating my experience, is that OK Sir ?
Hope you're not that condascending with the kids.
Unfortunately most of the electorate has a predisposition to prefer their politicians to have received [s]privileged[/s] education.
A well educated politician is always a preference.
Hope you're not that condascending with the kids.
Nope I've taught them to think logically, or if not I treat their views as those of kids, not an adult.
Oh right, just condascending on here then.
[u]condescending[/u]
point proven
No Flasheart. Someone who had achieved exactly the same academic qualifications as Tony Blair, but had gone to a Scottish comprehensive school, would have stood no chance, as far as the electorate is concerned.
Besides, educational achievement is no guarantee of political competence, as STW illustrates spectacularly on a daily basis.
.
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😉
Besides, educational achievement is no guarantee of agreeing with my own political beliefs, as STW illustrates spectacularly on a daily basis.
FTFY
😉
Not saying this isnt the case somewhere but what evidence do you have for this?
Simple having lived with 2 teachers for 6 years and thus been exposed to all the moans and the politics esp about shocking management and poor teachers who manage to stay on. Also I spend time every week in numerous schools, state schools from nursery to six form and public schools as well.
Obviously I'm not proffessionaly qualified just a layman but it was quite an eye opener going into schools after a 18 year gap and seeing what gos on.
Without doubt if I had children and the cash they would go to a public school or a Catholic school and I'm an atheist. I would rather they went to a state school but most are shockingly poor
I think the point is being missed here. It's not the education of these people, it's the fact that they have risen to the top of the political parties.
Someone who had achieved exactly the same academic qualifications as Tony Blair, but had gone to a Scottish comprehensive school, would have stood no chance, as far as the electorate is concerned.
I would disagree. The reason why there are a large number of Eton/Oxford/Cambridge graduates in the parties is simply down to the "old boys" network. An example would be Cameron and Osborne, friends before politics and now one giving the other one a job.
Also, when candidates are selected to fight for constituencies, a lot of the time the local hopeful is cast aside in favour of a candidate who's been "parachuted in". Naturally this candidate will tow the line of a political party more than someone who puts local issues first.
These people do not represent the majority of people in this country. It's almost mafia like.
It's [s]almost[/s] mafia [s]like[/s].
FTFY
I would rather they went to a state school but most are shockingly poor
So you've observed most schools closely have you?
Catholic schools are no worse or better than any other type of school, infact take god out and they are pretty much the same.
getting back to the original question I want the brightest and most capable people to run the country,that they come from a wide section of society would be good.
The current situation needs to be changed
It was not the "old boys network" which got Tony Blair through the Labour Party until he became Prime minister El-bent. It was that private boarding school charisma which came shinning through. A Tony Blair who had sounded as if he had gone to a Scottish comprehensive school would not have made it.
And quite right too - I don't want my Prime Minister to sound like a grunting sweaty sock.
getting back to the original question I want the brightest and most capable people to run the country,that they come from a wide section of society would be good.
and are Grammar schools a way to achieve this and if so how?
The "old boys network" these days is no more than a construct of envy. A fabricated excuse.
You cant use an "old boys network" to get yourself into Oxford or Cambridge, no more than you can use one to get most jobs. Its more common that there's those who so desperately wish that there was some dark forces at work than it actually happening. Something to point at and say "that's why Im not successful, I dont have access to the Old Boys Network". Load of hooey.
It also patronises the achievements of anyone else who has graduated from a good university and gone on to be successful regardless of how they got there.
Political relationships, dynasties and chosen scions exist independently of academe. They surely do exist, as in the case of Osborne, Johnson and Cameron. But dont confuse their ability to get to a good university on the back of an expensive private education with some kind of string-pulling, plummy accented, [i]opus dei[/i]
Political relationships, dynasties and chosen scions exist independently of academe.
Indeed. The Kinnock clan, for example. Far more of a "Network" at work there than the "Old Boys network"
or the wedgewood-benns....
or the milldulls...
You cant use an "old boys network" to get yourself into Oxford or Cambridge
But you can use a better education paid for by daddy to do so, isnt that the same? Sure if your as thick as mince then you have no hope but it certainly isnt an equally playing field. The Oxbridge club is the reserve of those with money by and large, to ignore this fact is to bury your head in the sand.
Stoner - MemberThe "old boys network" these days is no more than a construct of envy. A fabricated excuse.
Bullshine.
It is clearly still in place.
[img] 
?w=468&h=420[/img]
1) the Hon. Edward Sebastian Grigg, the heir to Baron Altrincham of Tormarton and current chairman of Credit Suisse (UK)
(2) David Cameron
(3) Ralph Perry Robinson, a former child actor, designer, furniture-maker
(4) Ewen Fergusson, son of the British ambassador to France, Sir Ewen Fergusson and now at City law firm Herbert Smith
(5) Matthew Benson, the heir to the Earldom of Wemyss and March
(6) Sebastian James, the son of Lord Northbourne, a major landowner in Kent
(7) Jonathan Ford, the-then president of the club, a banker with Morgan Grenfell
(8) Boris Johnson, the-then president of the Oxford Union, now Lord Mayor of London
9) Harry Eastwood, the investment fund consultant
The "old boys network" these days is no more than a construct of envy. A fabricated excuse.
In some cases maybe, but not all. The effect of who you know rather than what you know works at all levels.
[img] 
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(1) George Osborne, now the Chancellor;
(2) writer Harry Mount, the heir to the Baronetcy of Wasing and Mr. Cameron’s cousin;
(3) Chris Coleridge, the descendant of Samuel Taylor Coleridge, the son of Lloyds’ chairman David Coleridge, the brother of Conde Nast managing director Nicholas Coleridge
(4) German aristocrat and managing consultant Baron Lupus von Maltzahn,
(5) the late Mark Petre, the heir to the Barony of Petre;
(6) Australian millionaire Peter Holmes a Cour;
(7) Nat Rothschild, the heir to the Barons Rothschilds and co-founder of a racy student paper with Harry Mount
(8) Jason Gissing, the chairman of Ocado supermarkets.
Two figures on left of (6) and (7) were blacked out before the photo was released, causing wild allegations. Their identities are yet unknown. My top contenders (based on the influence in the City, the Athenaeum and their Oxford prominence) include:
(1) the Hon. Michael Gove, Shadow Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families, former president of the Oxford Union and “one-man think-tank”
(2) the Hon. Adam Bruce, the son of the Earl of Elgin and incumbent Unicorn Pursuivant of Arms
(3) the Hon. Edward Vaizey, the son of Lord Vaizey and the Shadow Minister for Culture
(4) the founder of Think Tank Policy Exchange, and conservative activist Nicholas Boles
(5) Steven Hilton, the director of strategy for Cameron and godfather of Cameron’s children
But you can use a better education paid for by daddy to do so, isnt that the same?
it's nothing like the same. at all.
An "old boys network" implies unequal treatment, selection indifferent to ability or achievement. Illogical preferential treatment.
No matter how an education is paid for academic and intellectual achievement is itself unblemished.
No matter how an education is paid academic and intellectual achievement is in itself unblemished.
erm:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2010/dec/03/state-school-pupils-university
Pupils from comprehensive schools are likely to do better at university than children educated at private or grammar schools with similar A-level results, according to research carried out for the government and published today.
now is this showing that comps are shit or that they give more rounded kids?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2010/dec/06/oxford-colleges-no-black-students
Figures revealed in requests made under the Freedom of Information (FoI) Act by the Labour MP David Lammy also show that Oxford's social profile is 89% upper- and middle-class, while 87.6% of the Cambridge student body is drawn from the top three socioeconomic groups. The average for British universities is 64.5%, according to the admissions body Ucas.
THE Kinnock family have made a fortune from the European gravy train.
Former Labour leader Neil, 67, was an EU Commissioner until 2004 and now gets a £63,900-a-year pension.He also had a £270,000 payout.
MEP wife Glenys, 64, gets a £57,000 salary plus about £100,000 a year in expenses.
She steps down this summer.
Daughter Rachel, 33, was her researcher. And son Stephen, 35, spent eight years working for the British Council in Brussels.
Anything to add to that TJ? Of course, the chap behind Ocado didn't work his socks off like the Kinnock children, did he? Glenys, I am sure, was worth every penny of that as well.
Bullshine.It is clearly still in place.
bravo TJ. You have just illustrated my point about the envious left very nicely.
How about you go through each of those people's cv's and make the case against their ACHIEVEMENT and EMPLOYMENT (not inherited wealth, that's a completely different argument) with reference to networking over academic results.
Your prejudices make you look woeful.
An "old boys network" implies unequal treatment, selection indifferent to ability or achievement. Illogical preferential treatment.No matter how an education is paid academic and intellectual achievement is in itself unblemished.
that's a bit rose tinted or perhaps biased surely..?
the mafiosi thing for me stems more from the way that I imagine these kids at elite establishments to have been conditioned to view the world..
The "old boys network" these days is no more than a construct of envy. A fabricated excuse.
'Tis you who is deluding themselves Stoner..........if you do indeed believe that. Politics, and the dark and mighty art of political lobbying, has everything to do with contacts - including the contacts forged at Eton and the Bullingdon club.
So you really think Osbourne is there on merit not because he knew Cameron from uni? Get real
🙄
This is how it works - these people rely upon their friends and only live work and appoint from "one of us"
its a very clear and well known phenomenon occuring all over society - hence unrepresentation of women in the boardroom and in senior posts, hence teh oxbridge elite in politics
Its a complete mistake to attribute that to better education - its all down to the contacts you make at school and uni. You do not get as better education at feepaying school. Going to one does not make you cleverer. it just gives yo useful contacts.
This does not happen in more egalitarian societies where these bastions of privilege do not exist.
a_a - you dont appear to have made any point with that post.
As I said: how an education is paid for is irrelevant to the existence or not of an old boys network.
various stats on state/public school exam results is nothing to do with the argument.
So you really think Osbourne is there on merit not because he knew Cameron from uni?
No.
So, what's your point about my original post again? Because I think you appear a little lost.
Stop digging, TJ.
You do not get as (sic) better education at feepaying (sic) school.
Now THAT is funny! 🙂
You really are ridiculous Stoner - envy? What says I am envious of these guys?
Just for your information I had the opportunity to go to public school and the academic achievements to go to Cambridge. I didn't want to. I am content with my life.
ernie_lynch - Member"The "old boys network" these days is no more than a construct of envy. A fabricated excuse."
'Tis you who is deluding themselves Stoner..........if you do indeed believe that. Politics, and the dark and mighty art of political lobbying, has everything to do with contacts - including the contacts forged at Eton
erm, did you watch the programme linked to at the start of this thread... numerous ex MP's talked of how they got to where they wanted to be due to the old boys network. I expect the current crop will too, in time, they cant now of course.
(5) Steven Hilton, the director of strategy for Cameron and godfather of Cameron’s children
But who's shoulder is he resting his arm on ? (second pic btw) .........they've been airbrushed out !!!
Stoner - Member"So you really think Osbourne is there on merit not because he knew Cameron from uni?
No."
So, what's your point about my original post again? Because I think you appear a little lost.
So you agree he is where he is 'cos he knew Cameron from Uni ie old boys network in action. Good.
As I said: how an education is paid for is irrelevant to the existence or not of an old boys network.
surely the Old Boys network is directly related to the fee paying school you went too or have I missed something? Isnt theat what the words mean?
Networking is pretty much everything. Look at the Labour party head honchos. They all fit the same mould. Right uni, right course, right start in the political machine etc. Networking is crucial in business too. Your personal contacts are vital to success.