[Closed] Posh and Posher: Why Public School Boys Run Britain

So you really think Osbourne is there on merit not because he knew Cameron from uni? Get real
🙄

This is how it works - these people rely upon their friends and only live work and appoint from "one of us"

its a very clear and well known phenomenon occuring all over society - hence unrepresentation of women in the boardroom and in senior posts, hence teh oxbridge elite in politics

Its a complete mistake to attribute that to better education - its all down to the contacts you make at school and uni. You do not get as better education at feepaying school. Going to one does not make you cleverer. it just gives yo useful contacts.

This does not happen in more egalitarian societies where these bastions of privilege do not exist.

a_a - you dont appear to have made any point with that post.

As I said: how an education is paid for is irrelevant to the existence or not of an old boys network.

various stats on state/public school exam results is nothing to do with the argument.

So you really think Osbourne is there on merit not because he knew Cameron from uni?

No.

So, what's your point about my original post again? Because I think you appear a little lost.

Stop digging, TJ.

You do not get as (sic) better education at feepaying (sic) school.

Now THAT is funny! 🙂

You really are ridiculous Stoner - envy? What says I am envious of these guys?

Just for your information I had the opportunity to go to public school and the academic achievements to go to Cambridge. I didn't want to. I am content with my life.

ernie_lynch - Member

"The "old boys network" these days is no more than a construct of envy. A fabricated excuse."

'Tis you who is deluding themselves Stoner..........if you do indeed believe that. Politics, and the dark and mighty art of political lobbying, has everything to do with contacts - including the contacts forged at Eton

erm, did you watch the programme linked to at the start of this thread... numerous ex MP's talked of how they got to where they wanted to be due to the old boys network. I expect the current crop will too, in time, they cant now of course.

(5) Steven Hilton, the director of strategy for Cameron and godfather of Cameron’s children

But who's shoulder is he resting his arm on ? (second pic btw) .........they've been airbrushed out !!!

Stoner - Member

"So you really think Osbourne is there on merit not because he knew Cameron from uni?

No."

So, what's your point about my original post again? Because I think you appear a little lost.

So you agree he is where he is 'cos he knew Cameron from Uni ie old boys network in action. Good.

As I said: how an education is paid for is irrelevant to the existence or not of an old boys network.

surely the Old Boys network is directly related to the fee paying school you went too or have I missed something? Isnt theat what the words mean?

Networking is pretty much everything. Look at the Labour party head honchos. They all fit the same mould. Right uni, right course, right start in the political machine etc. Networking is crucial in business too. Your personal contacts are vital to success.

networking isnt an Old Boys network though is it?

The "old boys network" these days is no more than a construct of envy. A fabricated excuse.

That's quite a defence there stoner, all that came out when I don't seem to remember criticizing the "posh" universities, or all the graduates. I was actually putting the point across that it wasn't where they went to get educated that mattered, it's what they did when they got there and beyond.

You called it a load of "hooey", but then admit it does happen citing Cameron/Osborne. Considering that everyone "networks", do you not think that the future politicians and future business leaders who sat the political and economics courses did not network with each other?

Networking is pretty much everything. Look at the Labour party head honchos. They all fit the same mould. Right uni, right course, right start in the political machine etc. Networking is crucial in business too. Your personal contacts are vital to success.

I'm agreeing with 5th elefant( 😯 ).

hence teh oxbridge elite in politics

deleted incredibly witty but slightly offensive remark.

TJ. Yes I agree.

But its not because he WENT to oxford or cambridge.

I said in my OP, relationships are always there. political links and families. Im not naive, I think you and Ernie have jumped a bit to quickly.

What I said was that success by an oxbridge graduate is NOT primarily down to an Old Boy Network.

Your personal contacts are vital to success.

Sroner - so Osbournes is there because he knew Cameron at Uni but

But its not because he WENT to oxford or cambridge.

Want to borrow a shovel?

TJ - for someone who apparently "had the academic achievements to go to Cambridge" you're displaying more the intellectual level of someone who could have gone to Oxford. 🙄

There are opportunities everywhere to better yourself.
If you choose not to yourself, don't ctiticize those who do.

not sure anyone is really just pointing out that those opportunities you speak of are vastly more open to those at the top of the economic scale than those at the bottom.

hey Stoner can you answer the question I posed?

surely the Old Boys network is directly related to the fee paying school you went too or have I missed something? Isnt theat what the words mean?

The Old Boy network exists, Daddy is MD in company X and will either provide a job for sonny's friend or the opportunity to get the job

I sincerely doubt that's anything like as prevalent as the Guardian would have you believe. certainly no more likely than a shop steward getting his pals son on the shift is it?

[s]a_a which one?[/s]

edit: that one. hang on

you said:

how an education is paid for is irrelevant to the existence or not of an old boys network.

I said:

surely the Old Boys network is directly related to the fee paying school you went too or have I missed something? Isnt theat what the words mean?

I sincerely doubt that's anything like as prevalent as the Guardian would have you believe. certainly no more likely than a shop steward getting his pals son on the shift is it?

a_a: yes Old Boys Network comes from old school relationships. And it's so out of date it's laughable.

To try and use it seriously in an argument is akin to using the word "toff". A nostalgic construction used lazily without really thinking whether it's even remotely relevant or contemporary. Trying desperately to emotionalise something far more mundane.

In real life, most "old boys" couldnt give a monkeys about their alma mater or others that come from it. Thats not the same as using friendships that have endured from school - afterall would you not help an old school friend out, whether you went to Eton or Scum Comp?

The "Old boy network" implied that you could waggle your old school tie and get a leg up from an unknown, older alumni, regardless of your personal relationship with them. I can think of no occasion that that could have happened in my experience.

right OK, it doesnt exist because you said it doesnt despite all the evidence to the contrary, I'll ask again have you watched the programme linked to at the top of the thread?

I can think of no occasion that that could have happened in my experience.

Clearly you are the arbiter of fact. If it hasnt happend to you it doesnt happen!!

If there was a national boarding grammer school where only the brightest students from the state system could apply and was manned by the best teachers and was run by an inspirational head,with ties into industry, commerce and politics(at a high level).

Would the exstudents have a chance ?

Should be in with a chance getting to the top uni's
but how would they fair from afterwards

Stoner - still digging? Cameron and Osbourne are an obvious example that you admit is true of the "old boys network" in action.

Its real. it happens today.

then where's your corollary?

Who's had a leg up at your work from an old school contact?

TJ - define "Old Boy Network" for me.

The "Old boy network" implied that you could waggle your old school tie and get a leg up. I can think of no occasion that that could have happened in my experience.

A regular question on introductions was an enquiry to which school you went to, from that point on the future of the relationship is determined.
Friends got jobs for and from friends' families.

It isn't as base as flashing the tie, it's networking but you are deluded if you say it doesn't exist.

Who's had a leg up at your work from an old school contact?

Dont know I aint in any Old Boys network, I didnt go to a fee paying school, which is what the word means.

Not sure North Bromsgrove High Old Boys exists, it would have girls in if it fdid though so that may just discount it.

Oxford dictionary:

an informal system through which men are thought to use their positions of influence to help others who went to the same school or university as they did , or who share a similar social background.

wiki:

An old boy network, or society, can refer to social and business connections among former pupils of male-only private schools.

don "A regular question on introductions"

job interviews?

Be daft if they didnt ask which school you went to.

What do you think the odds are of coming across someone interviewing you from your old school by chance?

Dont know I aint in any Old Boys network

So in spite of having no experience of it, you think it's rife?

networking isnt an Old Boys network though is it?

men are thought to

OED not known for being flippant with their use of words.

job interviews?

No, social. Most people were known by name and school. I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm saying it exists.

So even in the definitions there's no claim of widespread nepotism.

The vernacular implies nothing more than the kind of networking relationships cultivated at any comprehensive school, red brick university, shop floor, sunday league football club, church congregation, masonic lodge or sewing circle.

I'm saying it exists

spain or UK?

UK? who on earth asks which school you went to in social conversations?

Nepotism? Old Boys Network? Step on the ladder?

Sorry chaps, thought you were talking about these two:

[img] [/img]

The "Old boy network" implied that you could waggle your old school tie and get a leg up from an unknown, older alumni, regardless of your personal relationship with them. I can think of no occasion that that could have happened in my experience.

Well the Global Forum on Public Governance, run by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) reckons it certainly exists between the banks and the government :

[url= http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/latestnews/Study-reveals-true-extent-of.5230278.jp ]Study reveals true extent of 'old boys network' between Government and banks[/url]

[i]"Britain has a greater culture of cronyism than Europe or the US, according to the study, which identified key individuals who have moved jobs between politics, financial institutions and the bodies charged with regulating the banking industry."[/i]

Is the OECD also plagued by socialist/left-wing envy ?

But of course you didn't mean [i]that[/i] did you Stoner ?

The "Old boy network" implied that you could waggle your old school tie and get a leg up [u]from an unknown, older alumni, regardless of your personal relationship with them.[/u] I can think of no occasion that that could have happened in my experience.

Have I spied a crafty edit?

So in spite of having no experience of it, you think it's rife?

Well as said at the risk of getting repetitive the programme linked to at the top of the thread had lots of people from, at and working in fee paying schools who seemed convinnced it exists. I have never been to or worked in or even visited the grounds of a fee paying school so wouldnt know.

I have seen ex PhD students of ex PhD students of get jobs with certain people myself included. Thats networking and different from an old boys network (although not much different). The key difference is the fact that I (or my mum) didnt have to pay to get into that network

TJ - for someone who apparently "had the academic achievements to go to Cambridge" you're displaying more the intellectual level of someone who could have gone to Oxford.

Is this some sort of Toffs' in-joke that I don't understand to to my scrotey plebesence?

Old Boys Network comes from old school relationships. And it's so out of date it's laughable.

You keep believing what your Tory heroes keep telling you eh Stoner?

Ha ha! You once tried to convince us you weren't a staunch Tory supporter. What a joke. Not that you had anyone fooled, you little Thatcherite you!

See, the Tories see people like you as very useful; they pull the wool over your eyes, convince you there's something in it for you, indeed may even throw you a few scraps to make you believe, then once they're done with you, will discard you like yesterday's rubbish. Meanwhile, they'll use the power you've given them, through your deluded sycophancy, to shaft everyone, and leave a right mess for everyone else to clear up. They'll be lording it up in secure gated mansions, while you try to avoid getting mugged on your way home from work. You're just a resource to be exploited and used as they see fit, nothing more.

Do you truly believe [i]all[/i] those who come through the Eton/Oxbridge style system are truly there purely on merit? Course they're not. Some are, but many are there simply because of the wealth of their families. I dare say a nice contribution to a new sports field or science lab goes quote a long way in getting you child accepted at such places...

Interesting how any mention of the fact that the education system is weighted in favour of those with money, provokes responses from people believing this heralds a call for the destruction of high quality education. No-one's actually mentioned scrapping private education, just that in a fairer and more just society, there would be little need for it. None of the little Tory Boys have bothered to offer any idea how the inequalities and discrepancies in the education system are actually going to be tackled and resolved. Perhaps cos the Tories have absolutely no intention of ever doing so; keep the proles in intellectual darkness, and they will pose little threat to the institutionalised power of the privileged few.

The other thing that program touched on was the 'special advisor' entry to politics, and the politics degree at oxford. Common to all parties.

I'd much rather someone worked their way up through a proper job, then into the union and eventually an MP. Equally I'd be very happy for the eton old boys to work in any job (even banking) for 30 years before becoming an MP. The professional politician - someone who only knows about politics? Politics is the least useful qualification for a politician. They should actually be able to do something useful, or at least be successful at something other than being a backstabbing, lying git.

UK? who on earth asks which school you went to in social conversations?

who on earth asks which school you went to in social conversations?

When I worked at Newcastle Uni and taught on a very "posh" agriculture course I was asked loads of times, one of those doing the asking was the Duke of Northumberlands son who I believe is quite well off and may have gone to a fee paying school.

The OECD didnt use the phrase "old Boys Network" in their release to describe the very mundane act of cronyism now did they. That was the scotsman. And they very kindly did it in "quotes". How sweetly leftist 🙂

And since when was cronyism the sole preserve of Eton's alumni?

And since when was cronyism the sole preserve of Eton's alumni?

so it does exist amongst the Eton Old Boys? Your confusing me now

TJ, given that you had the academic excellence required and have an obvious affinity for making your point, did you ever consider trying to enter politics ?

honest question and not an 'attack'

I was being facetious a_a

Ernie is confusing evidence of cronyism with evidence of a right wing public school conspiracy 🙂

When I worked at Newcastle Uni and taught on a very "posh" agriculture course I was asked loads of times, one of those doing the asking was the Duke of Northumberlands son who I believe is quite well off and may have gone to a fee paying school.

and just which life advantages did you (and don simon) subsequently miss out on for not saying "Harrow"?

Elfinsafety - Member

None of the little Tory Boys have bothered to offer any idea how the inequalities and discrepancies in the education system are actually going to be tackled and resolved.

I don't recall any significant effort by the Labour Party to make radical changes to education when they had an overwhelming Parliamentary majority....

I'd much rather someone worked their way up through a proper job, then into the union and eventually an MP.

+1. [b]Elfinism[/b] would see those who have worked their way up through an industry or service in positions of authority over matters relating to them. Like, a former train driver in charge of transport, not some chinless wonder who's only knowledge of such things is to say 'Home James'.

But then, putting workers in charge of the factories might see reduced profits for the factory bosses, and a greater distribution of the profits/rewards amongst all the workforces.. Which is probbly why we're stuck with the system we have now. The ruling elite don't want others to enjoy the wealth and privilege they have become accustomed to, and rigorously defend their positions through the manipulation of institutions such as Law and Order, Education, Healthcare etc. Keep all the best stuff for yourself, just throw the proles a few scraps now and then, and they'll be subservient and grateful, and willing to do your bidding.

And since when was cronyism the sole preserve of Eton's alumni?

Not at all Stoner. But only a deluded person would believe that there was no "Old boy network" between bankers, politicians, etc, who were formerly pupils of Eton.

and just which life advantages did you (and don simon) subsequently miss out on for not saying "Harrow"?

Dont know.
I expect in the case of those students they were trying to asses if I was worth listening to or not.

So why were all these people from Eton, former Eton Old Boys and people working at Eton convinced it exists and was. is or will be helpful?

(and don simon) subsequently miss out on for not saying "Harrow"?

But then, putting workers in charge of the factories might see reduced profits for the factory bosses, and a greater distribution of the profits/rewards amongst all the workforces.

[i]But only a deluded person would believe that there was no "Old boy network" between bankers, politicians, etc, who were formerly[/i]
pupils of Eton,
pupils of Tower Hamlets Comprehensive,
Burlington Squash club,
Thursday night drinking crow in the Dog and Duck, Balham South
etc
etc

you get my point.

If you (or TJ etc) [i]assume[/i] that much cronyism is to down to public schools it's clear signs of a prejudice.

I was being facetious a_a

I keep forgetting to use this when I trip up. Thanks for the reminder.

But only a deluded person would believe that there was no "Old boy network" between bankers, politicians, etc, who were formerly
pupils of Eton,
pupils of Tower Hamlets Comprehensive,
Burlington Squash club,
Thursday night drinking crow in the Dog and Duck, Balham South
etc
etc

you get my point.

no, but then you clearly dont get mine either

I keep forgetting to use this when I trip up.

Surely as one who never trips up, this [s]excuse[/s] will be surplus to one's requirements?

I keep forgetting to use this when I trip up.

I blame uneven wooden floors.

TJ et al, is it OK to have an unfair advantage when that is gained a la Kinnock? Or is it only those who went to that well known Slough Comp that are using an unfair advantage? You seem to have glossed over that example.

Or, is it that inverse snobbery and prejudice is acceptable in your happy little utopia?

Thursday night drinking crow in the Dog and Duck, Balham South

you get my point.

Yes I get your point, and it is absurd. Having connections with people who drank at the Dog and Duck in Balham on a Thursday night, will not give power, privilege, and influence, in any meaningful way. Having been a former pupil of Eton will.

Why do you think people spend vast amounts of money to send their sons to Eton, when all they have to do is send them down the Dog and Duck on a Thursday night ?

because it's Youngs beer.

TJ et al, is it OK to have an unfair advantage when that is gained a la Kinnock? Or is it only those who went to that well known Slough Comp that are using an unfair advantage? You seem to have glossed over that example.

Or, is it that inverse snobbery and prejudice is acceptable in your happy little utopia?

No its the same and the Islington set of Blair et al is the same and seems to be continued today. Having said that I know very little about Kinnock. The probelm as I see it is that power in this country is not controlled by a group that are even close to being represntative of the population in terms of economic background and this applies to all the main parties.

Just for a bit of balance.... My wee brother went to the same (good) comprehensive that I did and went on to win a scholarship for Cambridge, where he gained a good degree. He's now pursuing further studies in the US.

My point is that if you're a brainbox, your background may be irrelevant, if you're lucky enough to have pushy and caring teachers / parents. Many fee paying schools also have scholarship schemes.

It's still a long way from ideal, granted; Cambridge highly recommend that their students do not take on part time jobs, so spending money is expected to come from the parents - mine worked several years past their expected retirement to fund my bro's education. But it can be done.

Elfinism would see those who have worked their way up through an industry or service in positions of authority over matters relating to them. Like, a former train driver in charge of transport, not some chinless wonder who's only knowledge of such things is to say 'Home James'.

What does a train driver necessarily know about running a railway, let alone about wider transport issues? I can understand that input from train drivers could form a part of any transport decision making process, but I can't see that having driven a train necessarily makes one best placed to make the decisions.

2 rational posts in a row? Shome mishtake shurely!

because it's Youngs beer.

The facetious faeces is flying thick and fast tonight Stoner 🙂

I blame uneven wooden floors.

*runs off to check liability insurance policy*

but dont you see that's it's inevitable a_a?

To be "in power" requires a machine to get you there. Whether it's based around the TUC, Notting Hill, the Fabian Society or the CBI.

Have any of the downtrodden masses here ever tried to enter the areas they regard as the exclusive domain of the 'toffs' and been refused because of their social status....

To be "in power" requires a machine to get you there. Whether it's based around the TUC, Notting Hill, the Fabian Society or the CBI.

Or the Communist Party, those well know champions of social equality. Well, for some anyway....

but dont you see that's it's inevitable a_a?

right really confused now, is this you being facetious again or have I chamged you mind and its gone from non existant to inevitable?

What does a train driver necessarily know about running a railway, let alone about wider transport issues? I can understand that input from train drivers could form a part of any transport decision making process, but I can't see that having driven a train necessarily makes one best placed to make the decisions.

no, a_a

Im referring to all interest groups managing the democratic landscape.

it has nothing to do with an "old Boys Network".

Ah - so its just "the natural order" is it now stoner. We need to bow down to our lords and masters and just accept the crumbs for their table?