doean't explain why he was still there 22 days later.
Was he though? Is it clear that he died in hospital? I missed that if so.
We've reached the point these sorts of threads always hit eventually, which is Guesswork World. Always remember the Four Fs. Ernie seemingly knows (somehow?) why he was admitted to hospital and exactly where and when he "later" contracted covid, a disease particularly dangerous because of its long asymptomatic gestation period.
What was he admitted to hospital for? Did he already have a Cov-2 infection before admittance, did he contract it in hospital, did he contract it back at the home post-discharge (assuming he was sent home again)?
The actions of the police were deplorable, but holding them accountable for his death is moon logic. Even if he did contract Cov-2 in hospital, that's surely a "the hospital" problem. If someone got hit by a car whilst going to the shop to buy milk, would we blame the shop because if it was closed then they wouldn't have been going there, or blame the milkman for missing a delivery?
Ernie seemingly knows (somehow?) why he was admitted to hospital and exactly where and when he "later" contracted covid
If you are going to comment on what I wrote at least try to be honest 💡
I said very clearly that I was "speculating" on why he was admitted to hospital based on this particular sentence in the article :
Mr Burgess was taken to hospital after the incident and later contracted Covid. He died 22 days later.
Plus my limited medical knowledge which leads me to suspect that a 92 year old who has just 50,000 volts discharged through his frail body probably needs to be checked by a doctor.
We've reached the point these sorts of threads always hit eventually
Yup, we certainly have.
I said very clearly that I was "speculating"
You said "He caught the covid which he died from the hospital and my understanding is that he was only in the hospital as the consequences of the action of a couple of coppers." That's not speculating, it's a direct statement of fact that he caught Cov-2 at the hospital followed by a belief - not a speculation but a belief, it's "my understanding" - that the police hospitalised him.
You also said "Maybe I am speculating too" - so maybe you aren't? That's hardly "very clearly" now, is it.
And you challenge me to keep it honest. Sheesh.
it's a direct statement of fact that he caught Cov-2 at the hospital
Yeah based on what the article claims the court was told.
But ffs get a grip, I am not claiming to know anything beyond what is reported in the article. I am assuming that he went to hospital after the incident in which the 92 year old was peppered sprayed and tasered because that is how I read the news report.
You are free to speculate differently, as you are that butter knives can't be serrated, or whatever other weird thing you appear to want to get wound up about.
a belief - not a speculation but a belief, it's "my understanding" - that the police hospitalised him.
It's beyond debate that the police hospitalised the 92 year old man in question.
"The confrontation was treated as a medical incident...Mr Burgess had to be taken to the Conquest Hospital to have the Taser barbs removed."
https://www.theargus.co.uk/news/25180738.man-thought-dying-tasered-sussex-police/
To be truthful, neither BBC nor Sky say or don't say when he got Covid. Just that it was later.
BBC: Mr Burgess was taken to hospital after the incident and later contracted Covid. He died 22 days later.
Sky: Mr Burgess was taken to hospital after the incident and later contracted COVID-19. He died 22 days later at the age of 93.
[The similarity of the reporting makes me think it's a PA syndicated report with a bit of editing]
There's an implication but no actual statement that he caught it in hospital, or how much later.
If we want to play at speculating, what damage would be caused to a frail 92 year old by being hit (on the hand or lower arm) by an modern extendable baton? Could that be why he was taken to the hospital after the incident? Is a tazer and pepper spray possibly a safer option for a pensioner who may have brittler bones than the usual recipient of a baton strike?
I get UTI/bladder/kidney infections all the time, increased temperature leads to irrational behaviour and confusion can follow.
Failure of the care home to successfully treat his symptoms as sepsis can rapidly set in with uti infections and is a major cause of deaths in care homes, failure on the police officers who attended as they were woefully ill equipped/trained for such a situation and their behaviour was utterly unacceptable and certainly contributed as a major factor leading to his ultimate demise in hospital.
TBF the baton seems to the only reasonable part.
Not that simple. As the theotherjonv says (to paraphrase) ****ting a 92yo with a baton hard enough to disarm them stands a reasonable chance of giving them a broken/fractured/severely bruised arm needing hospital attention.
All of the choices can have outsized problems depending on the health of the victim eg pepper spray someone with lung issues and its problematic whereas someone else with a dodgy heart might shrug that off but not do well with a taser.
I've never wrapped my head around the former getting through the process, I don't think the 'standard' is as high as people think it is, or would like.
I am guessing both of these were in the army? So both got through army selection before the army found out one of them was a muppet?
Given the restrictions nowadays on giving an honest reference especially when not doing so might make a "you" problem a "them" problem it seems to be a general recruitment issue. Some people are great at bullshitting.
Having had to do some interviews recently its always a relief doing it for contractors where if I know if we are fooled its far easier to bin them off.
In Sept 2019 Boris opened police recruitment up to a target 20,000 new officers
Or rather Johnson as opposed to his popular name (by all accounts he uses his actual first name Alexander or Alex for his friends) and it is replacing the 20,000 officers sacked during tory austerity.
Phrasing it how you have buys into the Johnson myth making and hides the damage caused by the tories.
I am guessing both of these were in the army? So both got through army selection before the army found out one of them was a muppet?
Aye, but the bar is very low. With 8ish years of opportunity and development one was a ****wit, the other quite exceptional.
Unfortunately testimonials are very generic unless you got yourself into trouble or were exceptional.
I wouldn't trust the former to find his own arse with a map.
If he appeared on a BBC news segment tasering an disabled OAP, it wouldn't shock me.
Phrasing it how you have buys into the Johnson myth making and hides the damage caused by the tories.
That's me told. Enlighten me with a source evidencing "20,000 officers sacked during tory austerity."
Maybe they retired/resigned/transferred/were sacked with good reason, which is a somewhat different thing.
Recruitment didn't match leavers in England and Wales for many years:
2010 (Conservative Y1) 6,912 recruits 6,825 left
2011 (Cameron) 2,197 recruits 6,664 left
Recruitment stayed below leaver numbers until:
2019 (Boris Y1) 9,428 recruits 8,727 left
2020 (Boris Y2) 14,518 recruits 8,546 left
what damage would be caused to a frail 92 year old by being hit (on the hand or lower arm) by an modern extendable baton? Could that be why he was taken to the hospital after the incident?
No.
"The confrontation was treated as a medical incident...Mr Burgess had to be taken to the Conquest Hospital to have the Taser barbs removed."
THEARGUS.CO.UK
Police officers found not guilty of assault.
I would like to hear the reasoning!
Police officers found not guilty of assault.
I would like to hear the reasoning!
Well its enshrined in law that juries don't have to justify their decisions. All they needed was a reasonable doubt that it was assault, or to believe on the balance of probabilities that it was reasonable force.
Whilst we heard all the prosecution evidence things dried up a bit when we "should" have heard the other side, so its always hard to know what was said to the jury. However there is some expert witness evidence here in support of them acting in line with their training: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce80z8zy339o this report https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/uk/im-not-trigger-happy-tearful-officer-tells-court-after-tasering-amputee-92/ says the male officer hadn't seen the wheelchair and was fixated on the knife.
But the jury heard ALL the evidence and saw the accused in court, they heard the judge's instructions and spent 2 hrs discussing it and were UNANIMOUS. I think it is entirely possible for Jurors to think they overreacted but don't deserve to be criminalised for it. Jurors are always reluctant to convict police officers who are faced with snap decisions on courses of action.
Jurors are always reluctant to convict police officers
I remember many many years ago a copper being interviewed on the telly saying how even with overwhelming and indisputable evidence jurors were reluctant to find coppers guilty. He was explaining how frustrating it was when so much work had been put into providing evidence against a dodgy copper.
I expect things have changed in recent years but that the bar is still set pretty high for coppers.
Jurors are always reluctant to convict police officers
I remember many many years ago a copper being interviewed on the telly saying how even with overwhelming and indisputable evidence jurors were reluctant to find coppers guilty. He was explaining how frustrating it was when so much work had been put into providing evidence against a dodgy copper.
I expect things have changed in recent years but that the bar is still set pretty high for coppers.
I guess that depends on the type of "dodgy" - taking bribes or fabricating evidence, I can't see a jury being sympathetic. Overreacting (not trying to downplay this incident) in the heat of the moment, when you might need a copper to overreact at some point to protect you from someone with a knife, I can see greater leeway.
Not suggesting either is right, but I can see how it could affect a jurors view
By dodgy I mean any copper who shouldn't be a copper.
Like Constable Savage
Although I have no doubt that coppers like Constable Savage are now a far greater rarity than they were when that sketch was made. Likewise there isn't the level of police corruption that there was during the time of the West Midlands Serious Crime Squad or the Porn Squad.
Why aren't they trained to deal with that sort of confrontation? I would have thought that it is very much part of their job, certainly more so than the average copper.
Control and restraint is a specialised role requiring specialised training. A tiny moinority of nurses are trained in control and restraint Folk with the training have to be retrained every year ( IIRC) Its time consuming and expensive to train staff in C&R. I would expect policy to be to call in police if the nurses cannot talk the person down if they have a weapon
Tackling someone with a weapon to disarm them is probably outwith the training anyway
Its far more a coppers role than a nurses
Just because he is 92 and in a wheelchair does not mean he is incapable of hurting somone. I have seen a nurse get a tooth knocked out by a old man in a wheelchair.
Or even wait till he got thirsty and give him a drink with a cheeky sedative in it?
Illegal and unethical
Well exactly... I'm not professionally trained in this kind of thing at all... But I'm 100% confident I could have just grabbed his arm with one hand and put a pressure hold on his hand and simply taken the knife off him with pretty much zero fuss.
I am professionally trained including high level control and restraint and I doubt I could have done. Its absurd for you to be that confident - thats how people get hurt. Have you ever tried to restrain an adult who is fighting mad? I have. Its not easy at all even if they are old and have impaired mobility.
3 staff minimum to attempt this all of whom need specialist training
I am professionally trained including high level control and restraint and I doubt I could have done. Its absurd for you to be that confident - thats how people get hurt. Have you ever tried to restrain an adult who is fighting mad? I have. Its not easy at all even if they are old and have impaired mobility.
This.
There was an old woman across the road who my gran - no spring chicken herself - used to check in on and help out, she must have been in her 90s. She lost her marbles and started turning up on the doorstep at 3am complaining that my gran had stolen her teacup or some such nonsense. One time I thought, "right, I've had enough of this" and tried to escort this 'frail old lady' from the hallway. It was like trying to shift a pillar box, I was shocked at how strong she was.
It's easy to react emotionally with "poor 92-year old man in a wheelchair being abused by the pigs," not least of all because some people want it to be true because they're predisposed to hating the police (and sometimes with good reason), but looks can be deceptive.
Cops not guilty of assault.
Gross misconduct hearing to follow.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0r1pyxy09zo
Well that ^^ link finally shows what the weapon looked like, not exactly the most fearsome looking murder weapon I have ever seen.
I guess it could have caused someone a bit of damage, had they approached the one-legged disabled 92 year old wheelchair user. But then he could probably have also hurt someone had he grabbed pretty much anything from the kitchen, such as a bottle of ketchup.
I am still struggling to believe that dialing 999 was the most appropriate course of action. It will be interesting to see what the gross misconduct hearing decides.
I do know theres a multitude of ways a situation like that can be easily handled more humanely before resorting to battons, pepper spray and tazers.
such as? I have been in very similar situations and once on my unit the staff had to call police to deal with a patient in a very similar state.
I do love all the folk on here with zero experience of these sort of situations saying there were other avenues
There is policy and proceedure to follow and a weapon is a weapon. could easily take an eye out with a blunt knife for example
I am still struggling to believe that dialing 999 was the most appropriate course of action.
Well it was. the police may have over reacted but a patient with a weapon that you cannot talk them out of waving around is a police matter not a nurses job.
I was trained to train folk in the basics of management of aggression / control and restraint and even at the intermediate level i was trained to disarming someone with a weapon was not something I was taught. Policy would be to isolate them and call the police.
Most nurses have no training in control and restraint
What do you think the care home staff should have done?
but a patient with a weapon
I am not convinced that it was a weapon. Yes I know that he was claiming that he would take great pleasure in murdering people with it but it was an easy grip knife for elderly disabled people with arthritis or Parkinson's
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/315420412290
What do you think the care home staff should have done?
Well I was thinking along the lines of probably nothing and waiting until he had fallen asleep whilst making certain that he was left alone in the meantime.
What do you think that the care home staff should have done after the police had hit him with a truncheon, pepper sprayed him, tasered him, and got the dinner knife off him?
After bidding farewell to the coppers who had helpfully wrestled the knife off him what did you expect the care home staff to do with the old man?
I am not convinced that it was a weapon. Yes I know that he was claiming that he would take great pleasure in murdering people with it but it was an easy grip knife for elderly disabled people with arthritis or Parkinson's
Having now seen it I would agree, I'm not convinced either.
Well I was thinking along the lines of probably nothing and waiting until he had fallen asleep whilst making certain that he was left alone in the meantime.
New headline, "care home staff lock confused old man in room without access to food or water."
What do you think that the care home staff should have done after the police had hit him with a truncheon,
Did they hit him or try to hit the knife? That wasn't clear to me, the video cuts out before the strike.
Gross misconduct is probably a reasonable charge, along with a training "opportunity" to ensure that it's handled batter - uh, better next time.
New headline, "care home staff lock confused old man in room without access to food or water."
Who suggested doing that?
Is it standard protocol for a care home to dial 999 if they have a confused old man?
I am professionally trained including high level control and restraint and I doubt I could have done. Its absurd for you to be that confident - thats how people get hurt. Have you ever tried to restrain an adult who is fighting mad? I have. Its not easy at all even if they are old and have impaired mobility.
I'm not, I have zero training or experience in the sector, but 100% convinced I could have taken the butter knife off the 92 year old wheelchair-bound amputee without pepper spray, taser or baton. I'm equally open to the idea that I'm wrong but on the evidence as presented - not a problem.
Is it standard protocol for a care home to dial 999 if they have a confused old man?
I've no idea. What is the standard protocol for a care home when faced with a confused old man wielding a knife and saying he wants to murder people or hurt himself?
100% convinced I could have taken the butter knife off the 92 year old wheelchair-bound amputee
... only after first ascertaining that it's a "butter knife." Excuse me chief, can you not be murderous for a minute whilst I get close enough to check whether the weapon you're waving about is dangerous or not? Thanks.
Of course it's a factor, don't be silly. We're three pages in on here before we've discovered the nature of the knife, let alone started to assess it.
People keep using the word "amputee" I presume to add emotion into the equation, but the loss of a leg doesn't hinder the ability of someone to suddenly try to shove it through your eyeball if you get too close. At which point, whether it's a butter knife or whatever else it was you said may suddenly become quite relevant.
I too condemn the actions of the police, based on the evidence provided it seems heavy-handed. I'm less sure than you are though that a civilian such as yourself with (I assume) zero training could safely remove a knife from a murderous pensioner. If it were that simple, the care home staff would've already done so.
Is it standard protocol for a care home to dial 999 if they have a confused old man?
It is if he has a weapon and cannot be controlled by the care staff
but I maintain I could take that weapon from the 92 year old wheel-chair bound amputee without taser, pepper spray or baton, what's more with less harm caused to me or him than there actually was.
Whereas I who has been trained in this area and has actually been in very similar situations know that is not so
I've no idea. What is the standard protocol for a care home when faced with a confused old man wielding a knife and saying he wants to murder people or hurt himself?
Call the police.
Whereas I who has been trained in this area and has actually been in very similar situations know that is not so
Get in the sea with your real world qualified experience, that has no place here ................
Call the police X 3 TJ, yeah we’ve got that, but this reminds me of my late dad’s American wife who justified the LAPD’s handling of Rodney King. It’s ****ing procedure she cried! They got away with it as well.
Get in the sea with your real world qualified experience, that has no place here ................
Oh but real world qualified experience is really interesting. Another person with 30 years experience as a care worker has suggested :
You generally have to retrain every few years. Sadly the training/ retraining people get for that has deteriorated over the last 10-12 years.
And of course just because something is the correct existing protocol it doesn't automatically make it the best protocol. Dialling 999 to deal with the consequences of an elderly disabled man with a UTI doesn't sound like the best use of scarce police resources.
Maybe care homes should have their own trained rapid deployment teams to deal with incidents of confused elderly residents, and a ready access to pepper spray and tasers?
If we are saying to leave it all to the qualified staff to deal with it then why the hell are we involving coppers?
The police clearly massively over-reacted in this case, but TJ is right, care staff - and I'm including GPs and receptionist in this case are trained to a degree in defusing these situations, but beyond a certain point, the training is to call the cops - which normally brings things to an end. Violent patients infrequently threaten staff, but it happens probably more often than folks would assume, and the consequences can be devastating.
This guy nearly killed a GP and some receptionists because he couldn't get an appointment.
Always amazes me when we have experts in a field on this forum being told they are wrong by keyboard butter knife warriors.
If we are saying to leave it all to the qualified staff to deal with it then why the hell are we involving coppers?
Because beyond a certain point the coppers are the only qualified option. Care home staff will be very unlikely to be trained in control and restraint at all and certainly not to the level of disarming a man with a weapon
We can only speculate on the level of risk to staff here but over my career ( and I never worked in secure psychiatric units) I have seen multiple nurses be injured by patients very similar to this and have been left bleeding myself
I just do not get why you think nurses should put themselves at risk in situations they have no training for
I'm predisposed to taking the opposing view to both Ernie and TJ so this thread has me spinning like a dropped cat with buttered toast strapped to its back... 🤣
Maybe care homes should have their own trained rapid deployment teams to deal with incidents of confused elderly residents, and a ready access to pepper spray and tasers?
Coming soon to UK Gold ‘Care Home SWAT’ starring Troy McClure as Tazer O’Pepperspray?
Because beyond a certain point the coppers are the only qualified option. Care home staff will be very unlikely to be trained in control and restraint at all and certainly not to the level of disarming a man with a weapon.
So you have repeatedly pointed out, I am not sure that anyone has suggested otherwise. However I am suggesting that it might not be the best use of scarce police resources and emergency call handlers.
If the police can be trained to deal with confused elderly disabled people then why on earth can't care home staff? It seems to make little sense.
And btw I wouldn't describe the very small easy grip knife for elderly disabled people with arthritis as "a weapon", I think "an object" would probably be a better description, although granted any object can be a weapon, including a sink plunger.
