I read through the article thinking...ok care staff are not trained for confrontation and it's not their job, may need to call police on occasion, but this is just indescribably cruel, and how the hell did they get hold of a knife if they were in care?
So you just have to watch the video in the article... I'm just speechless... 🤮 🤬 🤢
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cp8dv60dygro
...ok care staff are not trained for confrontation and it's not their job,
Why aren't they trained to deal with that sort of confrontation? I would have thought that it is very much part of their job, certainly more so than the average copper.
According to the article :
He had not been diagnosed with dementia, but the care home specialised in support for people with the condition.
I honestly don't know why they needed to call the old bill. The knife is described as being similar to a butter knife ffs
I don't have any answers.
I do know theres a multitude of ways a situation like that can be easily handled more humanely before resorting to battons, pepper spray and tazers.
Especially when he was 92 years old, and only had one leg.... I doubt he could even get out of his chair unaided by the looks of it...this is the kind of thing I'd expect from USA or Israeli police, not British police.
To be fair the accused are in court before a jury so no it is presumably not what is expected from British coppers.
Good, I hope it's a manslaughter charge.
EDIT: I didn't read the full article as I was seeing red after watching the video..seems like the bent coppers are only facing assault charges, not manslaughter.
Well their victim died of covid so difficult to pin manslaughter charges on them
Well hopefully they will see some jail time, so the inmates of the jail can 'look after them' I'm sure...
I honestly don't know why they needed to call the old bill.
Whilst I agree staff in a home dealing with dementia should have specialist training and be capable of handling confused older people I suspect that since that would cost extra so most arent. Easiest to palm off on the cops as in many other mental health cases.
I honestly don't know why they needed to call the old bill.
Whilst I agree staff in a home dealing with dementia should have specialist training and be capable of handling confused older people I suspect that since that would cost extra so most arent. Easiest to palm off on the cops as in many other mental health cases.
Well exactly, I'd hazzard the care home staff will be on minimum wage with no special training, it really is a case of 'not my problem' so what are they suposed to do, they won't be qualified to sedate the old boy, or try to take the knife from him, so for them it's either call an ambulance or call the police to deal with it.
Hell, even if they'd have shot him with a tranqillizer dart like they do with zoo animals it would have been more humane, or the pigs could have just taken the knife off of him, its not like he was much of a threat, bloody cowards hiding behind a badge. 🤬
Some of the police have always been heavy handed. I was involved in a peaceful protest which the police decided to break up. The nice policeman initiated the the arrest attempt with a punch in the face.
I just legged it round the corner and hid in a pub.
Given the difficult job they have to do, the fact that relatively few cases get so out of control as to result in this reflects quite well on the majority of Police officers.
Incidents like this highlight the few officers who shouldn't be serving.
Some of the police have always been heavy handed. I was involved in a peaceful protest which the police decided to break up. The nice policeman initiated the the arrest attempt with a punch in the face.
I just legged it round the corner and hid in a pub.
A pub?
You are Stephen Yaxley-Lennon and I claim my five proud british pounds 🏴
ok care staff are not trained for confrontation and it's not their job, may need to call police on occasion, but this is just indescribably cruel, and how the hell did they get hold of a knife if they were in care?
Care homes are not prisons. He was not diagnosed with dementia, he was suffering from confusion associated with a urine infection (a common symptom in older people). The knife he was using was described as being like a butter knife, but with a modified handle for those with dexterity issues. I can see how that would give the impression to the officers that it posed a greater threat*. I don’t see what threat he posed sitting down in a room separate from others. Will be interesting to see what the jury conclude with all the evidence.
Bodyworn cameras are increasingly common and likely to highlight issues where people are hung up. Ultimately that can be a crime - but it’s potentially as much a training issue as one of evil intent. Did the training cover a disabled pensioner with a butter knife or assume that every time these things are deployed is for an angry young person potentially on drugs or with MH issues who poses a real threat.
*clearly it is 100% the officers responsibility to determine how and when to deploy pava/taser but it seems like something else is wrong with either the officers or the care home where they did so with no briefing about who/what/why.
I honestly don't know why they needed to call the old bill.
Probably in part because if they use force they risk allegations against themselves, and a butter knife and an angry patient can probably still do some harm. I assume the staff tried to reason with him before calling cops. Although clearly given the reported timescales the cops didn’t try to understand the situation.
i wonder who reported it for investigation? Did the care home immediately believe they were heavy handed or did they get the response they expected?
Its the timescale of this which is insane. Police arrived, received no briefing and within 1min 13sec they Taser him. He wasn't mobile so posed no immediate threat. Police just seemed bored and impatient. Appalling conduct.
I assume they tried to reason with him first.
From the Beeb report -
Mr Jarvis KC, told the court Mr Burgess was suffering from a urinary tract infection on the day of the incident, a condition that can make a person confused, agitated, or even aggressive.
He told the jury Mr Burgess was asked to hand over the knife after he had used it to flick food and poke a member of staff in the stomach.
Mr Jarvis said managers had spent 30 minutes trying to get him to put the knife down.
So their choice was to leave him where he was and everyone just keep their distance until he eventually dropped the knife, or call the Police. So they called the Police. This is f__d up all round.
i wonder who reported it for investigation? Did the care home immediately believe they were heavy handed or did they get the response they expected?
I assume there's some sort of inquiry/report every time a Taser is used, and in this case someone in the chain of command essentially said "are you joking...?"
I'm a care worker with 30 years experience. Over the years I have had some really good training about how to deal with situations that have the potential to become violent. You generally have to retrain every few years. Sadly the training/ retraining people get for that has deteriorated over the last 10-12 years.
The priorities would be the safety of the individual, people nearby and yourself. So you try to de-escalate, by talking to the individual reassuring them and also make other people safe by moving them away etc and to keep yourself safe.. Any person no matter how frail can be dangerous to themselves and others if they are suffering a delusion.. Any physical intervention with the person is a last resort.
In all the time working in care I have only once had to physically intervene, I hope I never have to do so again.
You can find a decent summary of what is involved by googling CALM training.
You would also have to take into account that when a person moves into a care home that care home becomes their home. It should therefore be as much as possible like an ordinary home where people can have access to things like cutlery etc or can make themselves a cup of tea. Obviously people do lose some of their capabilities over time and this needs to be continuously assessed to ensure their safety and others safety.
I assume there's some sort of inquiry/report every time a Taser is used, and in this case someone in the chain of command essentially said "are you joking...?"
@IHN - that would make a lot of sense. In terms of the post title, if that was the case it would suggest that it is not "police brutality" but individual fault. However if it got a "you better hope nobody complains" that might be a more alarming culture. It would also be interesting to see (and I guess we may hear evidence) how those who called the police felt they dealt with it.
The officer would also have known this would happen when they pulled the trigger so in that instance they presumably didn't think they were going to get a serious internal bollocking never mind a trial? Does that mean they thought they were acting 100% properly or that they thought the system would protect them. They've both pled not guilty so presumably think there's a chance they can convince at least some jurors that their actions were reasonable in the circumstances. We have of course only heard the prosecution version of events and seen a few seconds of video. They should be allowed to present their account.
(Slopes off to listen to ACAB by The 4 Skins)
i wonder who reported it for investigation?
Didn't he end up in hospital as the result of being pepper sprayed and tasered?
I would assume, or at least hope, that the correct protocol when someone ends up in hospital due to an incident in a care home and/or police action an investigation into what went wrong is immediately launched.
Hard to believe this could happen anywhere, let alone in the UK. Having worked with (not for) the Met and a police force in Oz, my feeling has always been to have absolutely nothing to do with them if you can possibly avoid it. I would have to be in a pretty desperate situation before I would even considering calling the guards for help!
Tbh my initial reaction when reading the article wasn't simply to question whether calling the police was an appropriate response to the "crisis" but also whether the police aren't already very stretched without having to deal with trivial incidents which should be dealt with by trained care workers.
We have of course only heard the prosecution version of events and seen a few seconds of video. They should be allowed to present their account
Why would that matter. The op has already convicted them.
The op has already convicted them.
There is a difference between convicting someone and accepting evidence provided under oath before a jury, and commenting on the video provided in the article.
The OP is giving a personal opinion based on the evidence so far provided, which seems perfectly reasonable to me.
I would assume, or at least hope, that the correct protocol when someone ends up in hospital due to an incident in a care home and/or police action an investigation into what went
You would be correct care workers would be required to record this for internal use and to report it to management. Management in turn would be required to report to the Scottish Social Services Council or the Care Inspectorate. If the worker is not satisfied with what their manager does they can go to either SSSC or the Care Inspectorate directly. I'm sure there will be a similar process in England
I believe hospital staff are also obliged to report any concerns they might have when a person presents with injuries and I know that police are required to report any injury they cause to someone whilst carrying out their duty
I will of course defer to @gordimhor's extensive experience, but people in care homes can turn on a dime. My dad was in one for a couple of years.
My mum was visiting him one time. They had a - I don't know, "support animal" I suppose - visiting, a dog. Everyone loved it. Then one old boy suddenly grabbed its collar and twisted. The dog's eyes rolled into the back of its head, tongue lolling out... pop quiz Hot Shot, what do you do? Tick tock.
As for the OP,
That's just nuts. They could've just put the brake on the wheelchair and left him in the corner until he worked it out. Or walked over and pulled it out of the 92-year old's hand. Using the baton to dislodge the knife, sure, why not (which it looks what may have happened after the video stops, it's not clear exactly where that landed). But pepper spray and a taser, seriously? Training issues aside that's a catastrophic failure of common sense.
Tbh my initial reaction when reading the article wasn't simply to question whether calling the police was an appropriate response to the "crisis" but also whether the police aren't already very stretched without having to deal with trivial incidents which should be dealt with by trained care workers.
Some of it could easily depend on HOW the police were called. Was it:
a) we've got this doddery old bloke who's a bit confused and he's got a knife, we're not trained to handle it, can you come over and have a word?
b) OMG, there's a guy with a KNIFE, help, help!!
Can see that if the latter call was put in, the police might be more likely to rush in, act first and ask questions later. In that report there's nothing about how the care workers handled it.
I've seen weird moments in care homes too when my grandma was in one. Some folk would be fine one day, chat to the staff as they have their medicine. Next day they'd slap the bottle out of the hand, accuse the staff of trying to poison them, demand to see the squadron leader...
Some of it could easily depend on HOW the police were called. Was it:
a) we've got this doddery old bloke who's a bit confused and he's got a knife, we're not trained to handle it, can you come over and have a word?
b) OMG, there's a guy with a KNIFE, help, help!!Can see that if the latter call was put in, the police might be more likely to rush in, act first and ask questions later. In that report there's nothing about how the care workers handled it.
I know what you're saying, but looking at the video (and I know that's all we have, there may be more we don't know), regardless of how the call came in it wouldn't seem to need much policing experience to read the situation and realise he was very much not an imminent threat to anyone.
The OP is giving a personal opinion based on the evidence so far provided, which seems perfectly reasonable to me.
Despite the full daily Mail headline suggesting the outcome is a forgone conclusion despite there being no defence case made yet.
https://www.pressreader.com/uk/daily-mail/20250520/281964613628555 apparently that's exactly what they did - wheeled him to his room and tried to calm him down for 30 minutes.They could've just put the brake on the wheelchair and left him in the corner until he worked it out. Or walked over and pulled it out of the 92-year old's hand.
Some of it could easily depend on HOW the police were called. Was it:
a) we've got this doddery old bloke who's a bit confused and he's got a knife, we're not trained to handle it, can you come over and have a word?
b) OMG, there's a guy with a KNIFE, help, help!!
Today's evidence is somewhere between the two: "He is stating that he wants to murder and that it will give him a great deal of pleasure... [The knife] has a serrated edge and it could cause damage if he was to use it. He still has the knife. I'm concerned if we leave him on his own he's going to hurt himself. We've removed him from other residents but he's not given in. He still has the knife. I'm concerned if we leave him on his own he's going to hurt himself. We've removed him from other residents but he's not given in. He is a wheelchair user so for him to approach the residents would be difficult. It's unlikely he would approach another resident but it's quite likely they could approach him without realising the danger."
of course how much of that was relayed to the officers who responded is a different question. I assume that if there is no immediate risk to life, their training is not to go rushing in, but assess the situation and the risks first. Neither accused looks like they are just out of police college.
There is a difference between convicting someone and accepting evidence provided under oath before a jury, and commenting on the video provided in the article.The OP is giving a personal opinion based on the evidence so far provided, which seems perfectly reasonable to me.
I don't think there was any evidence led under oath yesterday - it seemed to be the prosecution's opening statement.
The OP is giving a personal opinion based on the evidence so far provided, which seems perfectly reasonable to me.
Despite the full daily Mail headline suggesting the outcome is a forgone conclusion despite there being no defence case made yet.
It wasn't a Daily Mail headline it was the BBC and the headline didn't suggest a foregone conclusion. The headline claimed that the individual was tasered, I am not aware that anyone is questioning that.
I can't see the problem with the OP expressing a personal opinion based on what has been revealed so far, he not a jury member.
The case sounds remarkably similar to this case, where a New South Wales police officer tasered a 95 year old woman and killed her. He was convicted of manslaughter. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-03-29/kristian-white-sentencing-clare-nowland-legal-experts-surprised/105104826
I haven't had time to read decent coverage of this case yet. Can I assume the police officers' colleagues responded by creating accurate written records of events in a fully transparent way...?
I can't see any justification for use of force here as he was not a threat to anyone else. Had he started to self harm then some force would have been justified to protect him from self injury as it wasn't a butter knife he had.
"The court was told Mr Burgess had a knife with a sharp serrated edge."
I can't understand what the rush was. He wasn't a danger to anyone at that time and wasn't harming himself. Wait him out.De-escalate
According to that Sky link
"The court was told there was only one minute and 23 seconds between the officers arriving and Mr Burgess being shot with the Taser."
And I have been in a somewhat similar situation. Resolved with no baton/taser/pepper spray used.
Of course I wasn't there. I will be interested to see what the defence evidence is.
The internet must have desensitised me as I was expecting more violence.
I assumed police were called as the old boy had lost it and is holding a knife and threatening people, being in a wheelchair doesnt matter when he's in a care home with other vulnerable people in various states of mental or physical conditions IMO, I then saw this transcript posted earlier up the thread:
He is stating that he wants to murder and that it will give him a great deal of pleasure... [The knife] has a serrated edge and it could cause damage if he was to use it. He still has the knife. I'm concerned if we leave him on his own he's going to hurt himself. We've removed him from other residents but he's not given in. He still has the knife. I'm concerned if we leave him on his own he's going to hurt himself. We've removed him from other residents but he's not given in. He is a wheelchair user so for him to approach the residents would be difficult. It's unlikely he would approach another resident but it's quite likely they could approach him without realising the danger.
Police Brutality, not IMO, a bit heavy handed sure, but look at the call in, they would have been passed the pertinent points of that like he's armed and wants to kill others in a place full of vulnerable people.
I would also assume the police are trained to take everything into account but not to underestimate the scene, yes he was wheel chair bound with one leg, but he's still got two arms and from a seated position can still pose a threat, threats which were made and have been continued to be made for the duration of the event.
He is stating that he wants to murder and that it will give him a great deal of pleasure..
Yeah he was a one-legged wheelchair bound 92 year old with a butter knife and a urinary infection, he was never going murder anyone. However scary he might have appeared
Shocking as this story is, the thread title is a little clickbaity. If you were expecting evidence of planned and consistent campaigns of violence, a shitshow at an old folks home isn't it!
The police have a long tradition of heavy handedness. Remember the Battle of the Beanfield where pregnant women were beaten with batons? Or The Battle of Orgreave where the police used a heavy horse and riot baton charge into massed pickets? All Cats Are Beautiful!
In my job as a firefighter I was once, many years a go, sent to a care home where a resident was committing acts of arson, a poor old lady with dementia was wondering around with a lighter setting fire to anything she could (completely naked as well, and that's one of many sights I'll never forget) we just followed her around with a bucket of water dowsing anything we couldn't remove from her path until she calmed down and became more lucid. We were there about 40 minutes. One and a half minutes would barely covered our information gathering phase. This incident actually occurred not to far from me and the police force involved is my local one, sadly I'm not surprised, some of the officers I've interacted with over the years on a professional basis do seem to be either poorly trained or just lacking in common sense.
I'm not condoning the tasering of a one-legged pensioner with a butter knife, but conflating that with Orgreave and BotB, both of which happened 40 years ago is stretching the already click-baity headline somewhat.
Let me counter with the fact that the people of East Sussex are well known for being rather fighty, there's a document in Northern France confirming that they're reknowned for loving a skirmish, and the police probably had this in mind as they moved in 😉
It's not Sussex Police's first rodeo when it comes to the free and easy use of weapons. Shooting a naked unarmed man...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-12424005
look at the call in, they would have been passed the pertinent points of that like he's armed and wants to kill others in a place full of vulnerable people.
The pertinent info of "he's been removed from other residents" is missing there. As is the pertinent observation that any normal person walking into the room would have made - the man being quite elderly, one-legged, and in a wheelchair.
It's not Sussex Police's first rodeo when it comes to the free and easy use of weapons. Shooting a naked unarmed man...
Back in 2011. It's a regular event
People keep saying "butter knife." Last I checked, a butter knife isn't serrated.
