If the police can be trained to deal with confused elderly disabled people then why on earth can't care home staff? It seems to make little sense.
Because this is not just a confused elderly disabled person - thats within our remit and training. this is a man with a weapon ( and yes it is) threatening staff.
To train all care home and nursing staff to the level that they are able to disarm someone would be extremely onerous and expensive and for some staff not practicable. Its a fortunately very rare situation - one I have seen once ( other incidents did not involve weapons). Many staff would go their entire careers without seeing this. Police are trained to deal with violent people brandishing weapons, nurses are not
The training I did was 3 days full time and that still was not to a level where I would be trained to tackle someone with a weapon. If you operate outside your training and are hurt you have no comeback on your employer, If you hurt the person you would be liable for that.
To train all care home and nursing staff to the level that they are able to disarm someone
Who suggested all staff? I am suggesting that instead of dialling 999 perhaps phoning someone else, ie, not the police.
You do realise that the two coppers involved are facing gross misconduct charges don't you? Which suggests that even if they were not guilty of assault using pepper spray and a taser might not have been appropriate.
It's fine for you to say this is the correct protocol but it doesn't seem to have worked very well in this case does it? Don't you think that it might be worth looking at it again?
Who suggested all staff? I am suggesting that instead of dialling 999 perhaps phoning someone else, ie, not the police.
So you want some sort of rapid response unit that is on call 24/7? Whoi is going to train and supply these people? How many teams would you need?
NO I don't think its worth looking at again.
I don't know where my post has disappeared to - I can see it's been responded to!
I'm less sure than you are though that a civilian such as yourself with (I assume) zero training could safely remove a knife from a murderous pensioner. If it were that simple, the care home staff would've already done so.
That's fine, we don't have to agree on this. But I maintain, based on that short video, that I could take that knife from that man without inflicting anywhere near the damage on him that the police did. And please don't think this is a dissing of the care home staff - it's more a condemnation of the officer involved.
I am explaining from real experience that calling the police would be the correct action from the care staff.
I totally acknowledge your training and experience, I don't doubt what you're saying for a second.
Always amazes me when we have experts in a field on this forum being told they are wrong by keyboard butter knife warriors.
Please don't include me in that - I'm saying I think I could take the knife from the man, that's not a criticism or contradiction of anyone saying the correct thing to do was call the police.
Pondo - have you ever had to disarm or even restrain someone who is fighting mad? Its not easy at all. I had to do this once with a frail old lady ( not armed) I ended up bleeding, one of my colleagues got a punch in the face, she ended up with bruising and that was with 3 properly trained staff doing the restraint
NO I don't think its worth looking at again.
Why not ? Two coppers ending up in court on assault charges and then facing gross misconduct charges suggests that the system might be flawed, I am assuming that your expertise doesn't extend to policing ?
Unless you think it all went absolutely fine because the old man was successfully disarmed and that was the goal?
What I am saying is this is a rare event that police are required, even rarer that it goes wrong and that there is no one else available to deal with situations of violence beyond what the nurses can cope with
Who do you think should be called out? How are you going to organise this service? Who is going to pay for it?
You would need thousands of these control and restraint teams on standby for these very rare instances
Pondo - have you ever had to disarm or even restrain someone who is fighting mad? Its not easy at all. I had to do this once with a frail old lady ( not armed) I ended up bleeding, one of my colleagues got a punch in the face, she ended up with bruising and that was with 3 properly trained staff doing the restraint
Nope, I never have, zero training, zero experience, and all I can base it on is that horrible video. If he's mobile, different story, but based solely on that, I still think I could have taken it from him. Again, I'm not saying that the staff were wrong to call the police, I think more that pepper spray, taser and baton were hideously over the top for the scenario.
This is NOT me saying I think I could beat a gorilla in a fight! 🙂
"Which suggests that even if they were not guilty of assault using pepper spray and a taser might not have been appropriate"
The issue with use of force here was not it's use IMO but the fact it was used rapidly when there was no immediate threat.
If I can compare with firearms standoffs I was at an incident where a guy with a sawn off shotgun in a close was contained in the close for around 5 hours because he wasn't either shooting it or trying to exit the close. No immediate threat no force used.
Thereafter when he approached the armed officer covering the front door and aimed at him from 5 yards he was shot and killed
The parallel here is there was no threat. They could have waited as long as it took until he cooperated, dropped the knife, or fell asleep .
I did training for using shield to subdue violent individuals in rooms. A team of 3. Two with shields. The protocol with knives was if anyone saw one. You shouted knife and retreated out the room and shut the door.
We never trained for dealing with 92 year olds in wheelchairs but it isn't much of a threat when all you need to do to be safe is stand where you are or if he wheels slowly towards you close the door.
Okay fair enough TJ, if issues concerning confused elderly patients in care homes who become aggressive is extremely rare then sure, the occasional incident involving poorly trained coppers isn't such a big issue.
Dunno, maybe I have an unrealistic idea of how common confused elderly people with UTIs are in care homes based on my elderly mum's reoccurring UTIs whilst she was in a care home, and how despite having normally a very sharp mind it caused her to have quite spectacular hallucinations?
Okay fair enough TJ, if issues concerning confused elderly patients in care homes who become aggressive is extremely rare then sure, the occasional incident involving poorly trained coppers isn't such a big issue.
Dunno, maybe I have an unrealistic idea of how common confused elderly people with UTIs are in care homes based on my elderly mum's reoccurring UTIs whilst she was in a care home, and how despite having normally a very sharp mind it caused her to have quite spectacular hallucinations?
Confusion is common (including hallucinations and maybe aggression). Doing it whilst holding a knife (even a pretty blunt one) and threatening to murder staff does not appear to be common. For that to last over 30 minutes and the staff not to be able to talk them down appears even rarer. If this was a regular thing you would expect (1) the cops to have some specific training in it; (2) the prosecution to have brought evidence that they had this training and didn't follow it; (3) that these situations are common and easily resolved without force. The prosecution didn't do that, in fact from what has been reported the only expert witness evidence on what the cops would be expected to do seemed to support their actions.
There is a huge difference between a confused / delirious old person and someone with a weapon threatening staff. Mo9st of these incidents are well within the skills of the staff to manage - the occasional rare one isnt
Oh but real world qualified experience is really interesting. Another person with 30 years experience as a care worker has suggested :
You generally have to retrain every few years. Sadly the training/ retraining people get for that has deteriorated over the last 10-12 years.
That was me and I would just like to say that I was referring to "Crisis and Agression Limitation and Management " (CALM) which I received .The purpose of this training is to avoid any physical intervention. It did not include restraint. My employer does not allow the use of restraint,none of my employers over all my time working in social care ever have.
The original training was a full two day course with two instructors teaching a small group of roughly eight workers. It was expensive but imo worth every penny.
Social care is skint these days and there is a shortage of staff. So refresher training of all kinds is mainly done online.
I don't know much about TJ other than he's a nurse and he rides bikes, but I agree with him on this.
If I can compare with firearms standoffs I was at an incident where a guy with a sawn off shotgun in a close was contained in the close for around 5 hours because he wasn't either shooting it or trying to exit the close. No immediate threat no force used.That does seem like it would have been the best course of action in the circumstances as we now know them, I'm not sure that the officer's own evidence even contradicts that.Thereafter when he approached the armed officer covering the front door and aimed at him from 5 yards he was shot and killed
The parallel here is there was no threat. They could have waited as long as it took until he cooperated, dropped the knife, or fell asleep .
Male officer's evidence was he didn't see the wheel chair as was focussed on the knife (oddly the prosecution don't seem to have asked - "if you were so focussed on the knife was it not obvious it was not very sharp?"). Clearly we can criticise them for rushing in too quick, but to some extent is that not what we actually want from ordinary beat officers? We want people who are told there's a guy gone crazy waving a knife around threatening to kill staff who head towards it rather than stand outside waiting for someone more experienced?We never trained for dealing with 92 year olds in wheelchairs but it isn't much of a threat when all you need to do to be safe is stand where you are or if he wheels slowly towards you close the door.
but I maintain I could take that weapon from the 92 year old wheel-chair bound amputee without taser, pepper spray or baton, what's more with less harm caused to me or him than there actually was.
What harm do you perceive they actually caused? They were charged with assault to ABH or GBH. Your approach may look less dramatic, and certainly makes less impressive headlines, but on a 92 yr old might still cause injury.
but I maintain I could take that weapon from the 92 year old wheel-chair bound amputee without taser, pepper spray or baton, what's more with less harm caused to me or him than there actually was.
What harm do you perceive they actually caused? They were charged with assault not ABH or GBH. Your approach may look less dramatic, and certainly makes less impressive headlines, but on a 92 yr old might still cause injury.
but I maintain I could take that weapon from the 92 year old wheel-chair bound amputee without taser, pepper spray or baton, what's more with less harm caused to me or him than there actually was.
What harm do you perceive they actually caused? They were charged with assault not ABH or GBH. Your approach may look less dramatic, and certainly makes less impressive headlines, but on a 92 yr old might still cause injury.
Whatever-it-was they took him to hospital for, I guess. I don't know if that's been detailed.
Male officer's evidence was he didn't see the wheel chair as was focussed on the knife (oddly the prosecution don't seem to have asked - "if you were so focussed on the knife was it not obvious it was not very sharp?").
We don't seem to be dealing with Sherlock Holmes here if his whole assessment of the situation was 'ARGGGGH, a knife, where's me taser?'
Clearly we can criticise them for rushing in too quick, but to some extent is that not what we actually want from ordinary beat officers? We want people who are told there's a guy gone crazy waving a knife around threatening to kill staff who head towards it rather than stand outside waiting for someone more experienced?
No, we want clear headed police who can assess a situation properly and use the correct response. I think that if we opt for your level of policing then the victim of a stabbing is likely to be tasered if they pull the knife out of the wound and these two geniuses are on call. Thankfully the few police I've ever had dealings with weren't like that, otherwise I may have been tasered myself. 😀
And of course just because something is the correct existing protocol it doesn't automatically make it the best protocol. Dialling 999 to deal with the consequences of an elderly disabled man with a UTI doesn't sound like the best use of scarce police resources.
Technically correct is the best kind of correct.
Whilst I agree with you, if the care staff went off piste, didn't follow established procedure and then something went wrong then the question would be asked "why didn't you follow procedure?" Whereas if they stick to what they've been told to do - even if it might be an overreaction - then their arse is covered.
And btw I wouldn't describe the very small easy grip knife for elderly disabled people with arthritis as "a weapon"
In the UK it is illegal to carry a fixed/locking blade knife with a blade longer than three inches. It is - as defined in English law - a weapon. The fact that it's rather blunt and has a rounded tip doesn't factor into it. If he walked - sorry, rolled out of the home waving it about then he (probably wouldn't be but) could be arrested for it.
And as I said earlier, you'd have to potentially put yourself into harm's way in order to ascertain precisely what he had. It's easy to scoff when there's a big picture of it lying next to a ruler.
Whatever-it-was they took him to hospital for, I guess. I don't know if that's been detailed.
Given they weren't charged with manslaughter or even ABH the hospital trip was likely as much about getting the UTI sorted as the taser barbs removed. Would you have removed the knife, handed it to the staff and walked off?
Whatever-it-was they took him to hospital for, I guess. I don't know if that's been detailed.
Given they weren't charged with manslaughter or even ABH the hospital trip was likely as much about getting the UTI sorted as the taser barbs removed. Would you have removed the knife, handed it to the staff and walked off?
Male officer's evidence was he didn't see the wheel chair as was focussed on the knife
This is interesting. If the copper didn't realise he was in a wheelchair (plausible or lying, I have no way of knowing) then that puts a different slant on things. I watched a martial arts video once on knife defence (not generally my thing, it was a random YouTube suggestion), someone able-bodied with a knife can cover ground remarkably quickly. The advice - from a sensei - was to move away not towards.
Given they weren't charged with manslaughter or even ABH the hospital trip was likely as much about getting the UTI sorted as the taser barbs removed. Would you have removed the knife, handed it to the staff and walked off?
I don't think we'll know until it's detailed. And yes, unless the staff wanted a big lump to help restrain him.
Pondo would have quite likely ended up injured and having injured the patient.
Control and restraint is not something for the amateur. Its much harder than you seem to think
I think restraint done properly is a real skill that needs a lot of training. The only thing I'm claiming here is that, based on the video, I could have disarmed the old boy without the use of pepper spray, baton and taser, and I freely (and multiply) admit I have zero experience or training in such things. I'm not challenging anything that anybody did or says other than the actions of the officer who tasered him.
Coming up next: Pondo on an assault charge for manhandling a 92-year old amputee in a wheelchair.
"Could" is one thing, "should" is another. When my dad was in hospital he kept trying to get out of bed and walk around unassisted when he wasn't able. I brought this up with the staff, I said I was concerned that he's going to have a fall. (He subsequently proved me right and broke his hip.) The staff replied "what do you expect us to do, we're not allowed to restrain him."
Thats rather poor from the staff Cougar. There are steps they can take but its time consuming and onerous and quite possibly if its a general ward they were not aware
I have been thinking about this a little more. I think it would be a 4 person restraint to get the knife off the chap. There is no way one person could do it without serious risk to both.
3 staff to pin him - one to each arm as an arm restraint needs two hands. One to secure his head and one to remove the knife from his hands. Possibly one for his leg as well making 5 staff to do it
As someone who was in the police for 30 years, perhaps I can offer some perspective.
Police officers are trained in control and restrain techniques based an a principle of 'force continuum'; a rising scale of response to increased threat. If they observe or are instructed to attend an incident involving aggression or verbal abuse, the appropriate initial response is verbal instruction to establish control. If the individual fails to comply or kicks off, open handed techniques (taking hold of wrists and elbows) and / or handcuffing is appropriate. If they are boxing or rolling around the ground fighting, they can be struck with batons, sprayed, handcuffed, fast strapped to the legs and pinned down to achieve application of said cuffs / fast straps and to facilitate searching. This can be dangerous if there is a prolonged struggle to achieve control, they are drugged up and go into excited delirium.
If they are carrying any kind of bladed weapon, have issued grave threats and are non compliant, that automatically elevates the response to, at a minimum, drawing batons and/or spray and, if suitably trained and equipped officers are present, drawing taser. Indeed, for large bladed instruments like swords, axes, machetes etc, a firearms response would also be considered. Further warnings are issued with the baton / spray / taser drawn. How it goes from there is dictated by offender compliance. Surrender weapon = de-escalation to verbal control and handcuff to search for secondaries. Fail to comply and its spray to the eyes. Still fail to surrender weapon, taser deployed. It matters not if the subject is mad, bad or sad, 9 or 92, has two, one or no legs. If the knife isn't dropped following verbal instruction, the force continuum applies and matters are escalated, as above, until they are disarmed. What officers should not do, is walk into the 'fighting arc' of the individual, even if blinded by spray. A flailing blunt knife can take an eye, a screwdriver can intrude into the brain, any serrated edge can lacerate an artery.
My own force, Strathclyde, introduced formal officer safety training and modern kit; side handled batons, rigid cuffs and (eventually) body armour, after an officer was stabbed to death by a male with mental health issues. One of the officer safety trainers was only in a training role as he had to be removed from operational duty. He had attended a call of an elderly bus passenger refusing to get off at the terminus. The passenger, while still seated, pulled a knife and severed the tendons in the officer's hand, leaving him permanently debilitated. We were taught that there is no such thing as no risk, only known risk or unknown risk. Bit late for the trainer.
If care home staff have tried to reason with a confused old man far half an hour but he not only refuses to surrender the knife but issues threats to kill, it's hardly their place to surmise, 'nah, he's harmless' and go in to remove the thing. As others have said, old people can be astonishingly stubborn and strong. (I drive emergency ambulances now and while most elderly patients are lovely and happy to see you, UTIs, meds imbalances and dementia can cause them to behave very irrationally and aggressively.) So the police were called, they followed procedure and a tragedy unfolded. His conveyance to hospital would be automatic to flush out the spray, remove the taser barbs and of course observations given his age and vulnerability. Contracting Covid and dying thereafter completed the tragedy and sealed the deal for the utterly terrible optics for the officers and police force concerned.
The officers will have automatically been reported to the CPS (PF up here) as any suspicion of criminality may not be internally investigated by their own force and must be passed to an independent body for investigation; IPOC or PIRC up here. CPS / PF then consider the case and, if there's any possibility that there's substance in the allegation, it goes to trial. I didn't follow the trial but I'd imagine the force continuum would have featured in their defence.
Why so quick to spray / taser? Dunno. None of us were there or party to the info given by staff to the cops. He'd had half an hour and seemed pretty determined not to play ball, perhaps that brought matters forward, who knows? I'd probably have given him a few mins of my own explanation as to how nasty spray and taser are and it would very much have been in his interests to comply. He may have responded positively but he really didn't seem to be listening. As for a longish standoff akin to a firearms siege, these are shift cops with several more calls of a similar or possibly more urgent nature to attend. They're always under pressure to be four places at once. All the more reason to attempt to talk him down I suppose but as I say, none of us was there.
Anyway, that's the Force Continuum, which they seem to have (rather quickly) followed. Unless there's a witch-hunt, I doubt the internal misconduct hearing outcome will be much different from the trial.
Ta downshep
Seems to me that like many incidents there is not one failing here but multiple each one of which is not dangerous but taken together are
Starting with the patients condition not being escalated quicker and ending with poor infection control in the hospital leading to him getting covid
He'd had half an hour and seemed pretty determined not to play ball, perhaps that brought matters forward, who knows? I'd probably have given him a few mins of my own explanation as to how nasty spray and taser are and it would very much have been in his interests to comply.
The 92 was actually given the knife by staff to cut his food, when he made threats to murder people he was relocated to his bedroom, it doesn't sound as if he was very much in control of the situation so his unwillingness to play ball doesn't seem to have been hugely relevant, they could apparently wheel him around the care home!
Upon their arrival, Donald had been relocated to his bedroom by care home staff and was sitting in his wheelchair holding a round-pointed adapted cutlery knife. The officers entered Donald’s bedroom without attempting to gather contextual information about the preceding events or about Donald’s condition from the care home staff. They did not take any steps to explain their presence to Donald, nor did they employ de-escalation tactics but instead immediately threatened, and then executed significant force against the elderly man.
The officers’ interaction with Donald lasted only 80 seconds, during which PAVA incapacitant spray, a baton and a taser were used on the 92-year-old.
Donald was handcuffed by officers and thereafter conveyed to hospital, where he died three weeks later, then aged 93, on 13 July 2022.
https://www.inquest.org.uk/donald-burgess-sussex-police-officers-acquitted
I am surprised that after all that they still needed to handcuff him.
It will be interesting to hear what the gross misconduct hearing concludes.
Really interesting, thank you @downshep.
"Could" is one thing, "should" is another.
Fortunately, I don't think I've claimed anywhere that, before calling the police, care home staff should "Deploy Pondo". 🙂
Thats rather poor from the staff Cougar. There are steps they can take but its time consuming and onerous and quite possibly if its a general ward they were not aware
It's rather more complicated than that. It's probably off topic for here, I'll take it to FB once I've eaten.
I'm massively out of date, which is one of several reasons for me not taking a deeper dive into this. TASER wasn't on general release in my day but was confined to firearms officers and a couple of other units and I've never handled one. I'm of the CS and Captor generation.
The officers will have automatically been reported to the CPS (PF up here) as any suspicion of criminality may not be internally investigated by their own force and must be passed to an independent body for investigation
The only difference in E&W is that the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) will either supervise an investigation by police investigators or will conduct the investigation completely.
In the case of the Manchester Airport assault I was confident in the outcome and the exoneration of the police officers concerned when the shortened video was first reported.
I've struggled to see the proportionality of some actions throughout this one, but I haven't heard all of the evidence that the jury heard. I also don't have the benefit of understanding modern policy and training.
The disciplinary hearing will shed further light on parts of this case that didn't make it to Court. There's a sliding scale on the burden of proof depending on the issue under investigation; some will require a lower threshold
2.6.5
Occasions will arise where it is necessary to use incapacitant spray on persons whose violent behaviour is due to a mental disorder or illness.
In such cases, where it is practicable, advice should be sought from mental health professionals present at the scene. In pre-planned joint activities such discussions could form part of the briefing and risk assessment for the event.
Consultation with friends, relatives etc. who are likely to know the person well may also assist in deciding on the most appropriate use of force response.
The final decision to use the spray in these circumstances will rest with the officer concerned.Chief officers are encouraged to consider local protocols with health authorities/social services in this respect.
(ACPO Guidance on the use of Incapacitant Spray Dated: 04/11/2010 V2) Still freely available online and contemporaneous to me, unlike newer versions that are secure
