That is because Southwark Crown Court were told that he was holding cutlery similar to a butter knife.
Presumably that refers to the distinctive shape and size of a butter knife.
What do you think the significance of the serrations on the knife might be...... that he could have sawn someone's leg off with it?
Edit : Here's a serrated butter knife
People keep saying "butter knife." Last I checked, a butter knife isn't serrated.
cutlery connoisseurs will know that butter knife’s are blunt, usually smooth sided with no discernible point. They often have a handle made from a different material to the blade.
Many ordinary people will use a standard domestic cutlery knife for spreading butter. This is the sort of knife one uses for eating their main course. They often have small serations but are not really sharp.
if cutting up tough food people will perhaps use a steak knife. These usually are serrated, with more of a point and a bit sharper but still not ideal slashing devices. That might be appropriate in a care facility where difficulty cutting and risk of choking are issues to be aware of.
presumably the jury will see either the item in question or photos of it to help them assess if the officers should have felt under threat. It may be telling which side lodges that - whether it appears more like a useless butter knife with a few ridges on the side or something really harmful.
My butter knifes are serrated, a lot are, and they will cut you if they are decent quality and you use them in anger. But that's hardly the point.
The guy was a 92yo wheelchair bound amputee.
They could have just grabbed his wrist and taken the knife from him... It's not like he was a juiced up crack head that would have required a more robust response.
I mean, what was he going to do, jump out of his wheelchair and go full 'Tony Jaa' on them? Lol
Could they have not just played the waiting game? Or even wait till he got thirsty and give him a drink with a cheeky sedative in it?
There's nothing in my mind that can rationalise a batting, and parva spray, followed up by a good tazing for good measure.
It just beggars belief.
Edit... Butter knife is probably the incorrect term.. I was more referring to your standard table knife but I think the term is pretty interchangeable.
What do you think the significance of the serrations on the knife might be...... that he could have sawn someone's leg off with it?
Edit : Here's a serrated butter knife
That's not serrated, it's a bit bumpy.
The excuse - in so far as it's valid - was that he posed a risk of harm to himself (so obviously the solution is to harm him yourself first🤷♂️). You're unlikely to be at risk from a regular table knife but a steak knife could be significant.
They could have just grabbed his wrist and taken the knife from him...
My thinking also. If it was indeed just a butter knife then there's hardly any threat/risk.
If you didn't see the incident you can't comment. Click bait at best.
The court has obviously allowed the case to be reported by the media, of course you can comment on the claims being made in court.
I'm not going to comment too deeply because this an active trial.
Policing and the world have changed a lot since the 1980s. I was there (although not at either Orgreave or Beanfield) and major changes included the Scarman Report and the PACE Act, which have filtered through to every level over the last 35 years or so.
Police officers have always been drawn from society and include recruits from diverse communities. Some forces support their officers well and some less well. A officer's age isn't a guide to their experience; recruits are a diverse bunch.
Don't pre-judge until you know the facts and be glad that cases like this aren't buried
Could they have not just played the waiting game? Or even wait till he got thirsty and give him a drink with a cheeky sedative in it?
That would be covert medication and you need permission from someone who can assess the person to be someone who doesn't have the capacity to make a decision for themselves. That would be a person known as a Responsible Medical officer. It must be might take a while to contact them. Perhaps not likely to be much use in this case unless the person was already assessed not to have capacity in which case covert medication might be permitted.
I think maybe the police services need more robust psychological evaluation.
Apparently it's quite hard to get into the police?
This seems to be a simple case of bullies on an ego trip going 'Wyatt Earp' on a confused 92 year old amputee with other underlying medical issues...
It doesn't take a genius of psychology to quickly assess and diffuse this particular situation.
It seems the police on this occasion adopted the American attitude of 'shoot first and ask questions later'.
Just following protocol, sir, nothing to see here. Move along.
Outside of their more specialised teams, the quality and training really fluctuates across the country and on more than a few occasions I've been disappointed to learn and see some of it in action in a professional capacity.
Easy to say with hindsight that these two had different choices available to them. But that requires combination of adequate training, knowledge and experience.
I guess the legal case and any subsequent internal processes will determine the facts in that regard.
But that doesn't take away from how deeply uncomfortable that video is to watch.
"When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail."
Outside of their more specialised teams, the quality and training really fluctuates across the country and on more than a few occasions I've been disappointed to learn and see some of it in action in a professional capacity.
Easy to say with hindsight that these two had different choices available to them. But that requires combination of adequate training, knowledge and experience.
I guess the legal case and any subsequent internal processes will determine the facts in that regard.
But that doesn't take away from how deeply uncomfortable that video is to watch.
"When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail."
Well exactly... I'm not professionally trained in this kind of thing at all... But I'm 100% confident I could have just grabbed his arm with one hand and put a pressure hold on his hand and simply taken the knife off him with pretty much zero fuss.
It would be over in 3 seconds and be a lot less stressful for the poor confused old guy.
The police in this case are just ****ing animals and not to be trusted.
It seems the police on this occasion adopted the American attitude of 'shoot first and ask questions later'.
Just following protocol, sir, nothing to see here. Move along.
And unlike in America, are in court to answer for their actions.
I don't see this as a training issue* rather than just a basic lack of common sense and basic humanity and an over eagerness to resort to violence far too quickly.
*other than such stupid thugs should really be easily weeded out in basic training well before they hit the beat and have the power to impact peoples lives.
I have zero knowledge of police training but "if this then that" wouldn't surprise me. The police have been called out - an escalation in itself so it was obviously a concern - to a bloke wielding a knife.
How do you deal with a bloke with a knife? You follow procedure otherwise you're in the shit. Common sense says "just take it off him" here, but procedure likely says "do not approach, use distance tactics to disarm" with zero consideration for age / physical disability / mental disability / a remote assessment of what type of knife it might be.
What if an officer had decided to apply common sense instead of following training and had then been stabbed? The guy had been told repeatedly (did I read that it was over the course of half an hour?) to put the knife down and refused.
I feel for him, I do, and the police reaction seems heavy-handed. My dad was hospitalised and then care-homed with dementia for about four years before clocking out. But police saying "put down the knife" shouldn't be a tall order to comply with.
It seems the police on this occasion adopted the American attitude of 'shoot first and ask questions later'.
Just following protocol, sir, nothing to see here. Move along.
And unlike in America, are in court to answer for their actions.
I suppose, but after the fact, is a bit late for the old boy and his family. It should have never happened in the first instance... just because it's slightly less disgracefull then the way the USA act, doesn't make it any more acceptable.
We are suposed to have standards.
it was obviously a concern - to a bloke wielding a knife.
Depends on your definition of a knife... 🤣
Two people spring to mind that I know personally who joined the police.
One was an utter ****wit who if he hadn't terminated his service was destined to be brown-lettered and admin discharged because he was not competent.
The other was (and still is in my mind) one of the most switched on and squared away blokes I ever served with. The epitome of a service professional.
They both joined the same force within 2 years of each other. I've never wrapped my head around the former getting through the process, I don't think the 'standard' is as high as people think it is, or would like.
But police saying "put down the knife" shouldn't be a tall order to comply with.
Fair. But he was confused and I'm pretty sure the pepper spray wasn't going to help the situation. It's ****ing sad. Old bloke dead, two cops in court and further reputational damage to a service that exists for public protection.
There are no winners here.
*other than such stupid thugs should really be easily weeded out in basic training well before they hit the beat and have the power to impact peoples lives.
In Sept 2019 Boris opened police recruitment up to a target 20,000 new officers. The first would just about be starting their training as Covid hit unnecessary movement, face-to face events, etc.
I think maybe the police services need more robust psychological evaluation.
See my comment that some forces are less good at supporting officers' needs ^^. One incident the day after evaluation and it's all undone
Close to one in five police officers and staff in the UK have symptoms consistent with either post-traumatic stress disorder or what’s known as “complex PTSD” – yet over two-thirds of those suffering are unaware. https://www.cam.ac.uk/stories/police-ptsd
I don't think the 'standard' is as high as people think it is, or would like.
That's partly down to a lack of prosecution for some "minor" crimes. If you don't detect offenders then you don't give them a "record", no record = successful security check for that bit of the application
just because it's slightly less disgracefull then the way the USA act, doesn't make it any more acceptable.
We are suposed to have standards.
The UK does have standards, which is why there is an ongoing court case.
I do agree with you that whataboutery isn't relevant to this case though, nevertheless I also believe that we should never lose sight that the British police is among the best and most professional in the world**
That hasn't happened by accident it has been driven in part precisely by constantly holding the police to account.
**I actually believe that the police and the BBC are two institutions which Britain can be rightly very proud of, and which provide an example to the rest of the world (despite the fact that I am actively slagging off the BBC on another thread)
I don't think the 'standard' is as high as people think it is, or would like.
That's partly down to a lack of prosecution for some "minor" crimes. If you don't detect offenders then you don't give them a "record", no record = successful security check for that bit of the application
Could well be. I also think some people lack the capacity for the role. That chap I referred to earlier, never tangled with the law, just a low quality, mentally and physically weak individual with poor character. I expected the standard for a copper to surpass the standard for a squaddie. I was quite wrong.
Outside of their more specialised teams, the quality and training really fluctuates across the country
The specialised teams of the Met have included Wayne Couzens (Parliamentary and Diplomatic Protection, firearms officer) who raped and murdered a woman in 2021, Simon Harwood (Territorial Support Group) who unlawfully killed a man in 2009, the whole of SO19 that killed an innocent Brazilian electrician and lied about it in 2005, Mark Tyrell (Parliamentary and Diplomatic Protection) who is charged with 17 counts of sexual abuse and misconduct in public office, David Carrick (Parliamentary and Diplomatic Protection) who is a serial rapist convicted in 2023...
We shouldn't be surprised that there are abusive or violent people among police officers - they're drawn from the general public and so are dickheads like the rest of us. But what is really dangerous is when the police force institutionally enables and protects the abusive and violent. Each of the cases (except maybe Tyrell) above saw fellow police officers cover up, ignore or fail to investigate concerns about the officers.
That was most striking in the De Menezes case, where SO19 and the Met Police as an institution engaged in a cover up. They defamed a totally innocent man and knowingly spread lies about him that still circulate - that he was wearing an unseasonably bulky jacket, that he had jumped the barrier at the tube station - all utter bullshit. And the architect of that cover up was Cressida Dick, who was promoted right to the top. Shameless
just because it's slightly less disgracefull then the way the USA act, doesn't make it any more acceptable.
We are suposed to have standards.
The UK does have standards, which is why there is an ongoing court case.
For clarity, I wasn't referring to this particular case with that comment, I was more referring to the low standard of candidate the police accept as 'good enough' to hide behind a badge and batter defenceless old people.
It's pure cowardice.
Don't get me wrong..if this was a crack head tripping out weidling a knife, I'd take a different stance, but it wasn't, so I'm not.
just because it's slightly less disgracefull then the way the USA act, doesn't make it any more acceptable.
We are suposed to have standards.
The UK does have standards, which is why there is an ongoing court case.
For clarity, I wasn't referring to this particular case with that comment, I was more referring to the low standard of candidate the police accept as 'good enough' to hide behind a badge and batter defenceless old people.
It's pure cowardice.
For clarity, can you provide us with details of all the other incidents where the Police have battered defenceless old people.
I expected the standard for a copper to surpass the standard for a squaddie
Having worked for the NAAFI in Germany and manned the squaddie bar the police could perhaps do with mimicking Army recruiting techniques. Then as now the squaddies didn't lack ability, what they lacked was money and prospects. They were from the poorest socio-economic groups from the poorest parts of the country. They saw the army as a way up and out and put up with being shot at by the IRA for some cash in their pockets and a trade at the end of it. By and large honest good people.
On the hand police recruitment, training and corporate culture in the main metropolitan areas has got us the police forces we have - as an honest, tax-paying, fare-paying, careful-driving, clean-living, left-voting citizen they scare the shit out of me.
I expected the standard for a copper to surpass the standard for a squaddie
Having worked for the NAAFI in Germany and manned the squaddie bar the police could perhaps do with mimicking Army recruiting techniques. Then as now the squaddies didn't lack ability, what they lacked was money and prospects. They were from the poorest socio-economic groups from the poorest parts of the country. They saw the army as a way up and out and put up with being shot at by the IRA for some cash in their pockets and a trade at the end of it. By and large honest good people.
On the hand police recruitment, training and corporate culture in the main metropolitan areas has got us the police forces we have - as an honest, tax-paying, fare-paying, careful-driving, clean-living, left-voting citizen they scare the shit out of me.
Fair observation.
If we want to show misconduct, extra-judicial killing, rampant misogyny and sexual abuse that can just as easily be thrown at the armed forces - you just haven't found yourself on the wrong side of them.
If we want to show misconduct, extra-judicial killing, rampant misogyny and sexual abuse that can just as easily be thrown at the armed forces - you just haven't found yourself on the wrong side of them.
Absolutely. Humans have this habit of covering their own arse in spite of extolling the virtues of 'doing the right thing'.
Same issues allow bad soldiers to surface; lack of standards, poor/weak leadership and to a lesser or greater extent political interference.
The big difference is the military doesn't hold a position of authority over the public it serves. And arguably less people give a shit about our failures than yours.
The UKSF allegations as an example have had very short run times compared to stories of Police misconduct. The military are useful idiots and when that use isn't being served most couldn't give two shits.
For clarity, can you provide us with details of all the other incidents where the Police have battered defenceless old people.
If I'm not under arrest, or even if I am, I'm afraid it's a "no comment" from me. Do I need to call a solicitor? 🤣
Fair. But he was confused and I'm pretty sure the pepper spray wasn't going to help the situation. It's ****ing sad. Old bloke dead, two cops in court and further reputational damage to a service that exists for public protection.
There are no winners here.
I don't disagree with any of that. Deployment of pepper spray seems a weird decision to me unless as I said they were operating under "how to deal with a man with a knife" training. But it's perhaps worth reinforcing that "old bloke dead" is unrelated; they didn't kill him, he later died from Covid.
Fair. But he was confused and I'm pretty sure the pepper spray wasn't going to help the situation. It's ****ing sad. Old bloke dead, two cops in court and further reputational damage to a service that exists for public protection.
There are no winners here.
I don't disagree with any of that. Deployment of pepper spray seems a weird decision to me unless as I said they were operating under "how to deal with a man with a knife" training. But it's perhaps worth reinforcing that "old bloke dead" is unrelated; they didn't kill him, he later died from Covid.
Absolutely, I meant in terms of the totality, I should have been clearer.
The nature of the interaction with the police and the subsequent, unrelated passing. That's a lot of negative emotions to manage for everyone involved.
But it's perhaps worth reinforcing that "old bloke dead" is unrelated; they didn't kill him, he later died from Covid.
Whoa hang on, they might not have been directly responsible for the poor geezer's death but they certainly appear to have been indirectly responsible.
He caught the covid which he died from the hospital and my understanding is that he was only in the hospital as the consequences of the action of a couple of coppers.
There is no evidence that he would have caught covid had it been decided to wait until he was tired and fell asleep before taking the cutlery similar to a butter knife off him.
But it's perhaps worth reinforcing that "old bloke dead" is unrelated; they didn't kill him, he later died from Covid.
Whoa hang on, they might not have been directly responsible for the poor geezer's death but they certainly appear to have been indirectly responsible.
He caught the covid which he died from the hospital and my understanding is that he was only in the hospital as the consequences of the action of a couple of coppers.
There is no evidence that he would have caught covid had it been decided to wait until he was tired and fell asleep before taking the cutlery similar to a butter knife off him.
I think it's certainly a contributing factor, for the purposes of the death certificate. He might not have had long to live, I don't know his medical history, but the police seem to have been happy to expedite it.
Don't get me wrong..if this was a crack head tripping out weidling a knife, I'd take a different stance, but it wasn't, so I'm not.
Am I to assume that you're missing quite a few qualifying criteria in this scenario?
For interest here's a report on how selection processes worked during Covid and the recruitment of the first tranche of 20000 new police numbers.
It was necessarily rushed and had flaws including a "lack of two-way communication" with candidates and didn't place "them in a challenging encounter."
But there was support for an assessment model that incorporated more face-to-face and interactive aspects.
Face-to-face interviews, either in person or online, were proposed as it was felt this would allow forces to meet and better assess candidates prior to appointment. Several stakeholders felt this more personable approach would address the key limitation of the recorded interview format used within the online assessment, which was the lack of two-way communication.Role play was viewed as an important element absent from the online assessment, one that provided candidates with the closest representation of the job by placing them in a challenging encounter.
I suspect that’s where the problem starts… you do your training, you attend a call with a crack head and use force and you get a pat on the back, nobody questioning if you needed to go that far. Then you go to another call and do the same, you develop a reputation for getting in quick to get the assailant under control. Yesterday’s video described it as “a smithy special”. Then you turn up at a case which has SOME of the same characteristics and you treat it exactly the same way. That level of force might be appropriate for some situations but I’d say regardless of the amputation, age and wheel chair deploying that level of force to someone in a room alone sitting down with small knife who has not made any attempt to harm himself of you is, within 87 seconds is probably going to (should) end up with you getting hauled over the coals. I can’t decide if them both doing it means there’s a cultural issue or that once one escalates the second essentially has to follow to prevent further harm.Don't get me wrong..if this was a crack head tripping out weidling a knife, I'd take a different stance, but it wasn't, so I'm not.
“I’d just have grabbed his wrist” is easy words but he will have been trained not to get that close unless no choice. Had he ended up injured he’d have been explaining to his boss why he chose to grab his wrist.
”it contributed to the death” - the IOPC investigated as possible manslaughter and cps concluded the charges are assault. They have the facts - it’s notoriously difficult to identify where someone gets covid, it’s not like care homes are sterile. He was admitted to hospital but I don’t think he’d have been kept overnight for pava and taser - that sounds like the underlying UTI.
”people with dementia” - he didn’t have dementia, they didn’t bother to understand who/what/why there was an old guy in a room on his own with a knife making wild threats.
"He caught the covid which he died from the hospital and my understanding is that he was only in the hospital as the consequences of the action of a couple of coppers."
That is speculation.
He had some medical condition causing his aggressive behaviour which may have required hospital medical treatment as any treatment he was receiving for it in the care home obviously wasn't working.
I just can't understand the rush to tazer/spray and baton him when he was no immediate threat. IME where a threat is contained the police will wait for hours to avoid using force.
That is speculation.
He had some medical condition causing his aggressive behaviour which may have required hospital medical treatment as any treatment he was receiving for it in the care home obviously wasn't working
Now that's "speculation"! Why on earth have you assumed that the treatment he was recieving for his urinary tract infection "obviously wasn't working"?
Urinary tract infections, which often leave elderly people highly confused, are generally very treatable and don't require hospitalisation.
Maybe I am speculating too but this sentence in the article suggests a very strong link between the incident and him being taken to hospital:
Mr Burgess was taken to hospital after the incident and later contracted Covid. He died 22 days later.
I think the likelihood that he was taken hospital because of a prearranged appointment rather than because he had been peppered sprayed and his frail 92 year body had been exposed to 50,000 volts are rather small.
i dont think we actually know he had been diagnosed before the incident? My experience is often the sign that gets real action is the confusion. Its certainly not uncommon for people to be admitted with UTIs once they've reached the confusion stage. If the treatment was working he wouldn't be so confused that a normally placid guy is threatening to murder staff.Now that's "speculation"! Why on earth have you assumed that the treatment he was recieving for his urinary tract infection "obviously wasn't working"?
Urinary tract infections, which often leave elderly people highly confused, are generally very treatable and don't require hospitalisation.
Maybe I am speculating too but this sentence in the article suggests a very strong link between the incident and him being taken to hospital:
Mr Burgess was taken to hospital after the incident and later contracted Covid. He died 22 days later.
I think the likelihood that he was taken hospital because of a prearranged appointment rather than because he had been peppered sprayed and his frail 92 year body had been exposed to 50,000 volts are rather small.
I don't think anyone has suggested he had a pre-arranged appointment. It was reported he was taken to hospital to have the taser barbs removed But that is a 5 minute job, so even with A&E waiting times like the UK doean't explain why he was still there 22 days later. I'd respectfully suggest that since the prosecutor has not tried to draw a link that once the barbs were out the docs tried to get to the bottom of the UTI and decided to admit him (and/or the care home didn't want him back after threatening to kill their staff). There would be nothing particularly unusual about an old man getting a UTI, becoming confused, ending up needing minor injury treatment and then being admitted for treatment. Nor even for them never to leave the hospital again.
If the treatment was working he wouldn't be so confused
Why wouldn't he be? Just because the symptoms of the UTI didn't clear up as soon as he had taken his first antibiotic it doesn't mean that the treatment wasn't working.
By all means speculate that he was maybe hospitalised after the incident because of his UTI but if we are going to speculate I prefer my speculation that it was probably connected to 50,000 volts going through his 92 year old body.
Btw do coppers still carry truncheons as well as tasers? I reckon a truncheon across the knuckles would have likely loosened his grip on the cutlery similar to a butter knife, and have been potentially less dangerous.
Btw do coppers still carry truncheons as well as tasers? I reckon a truncheon across the knuckles would have likely loosened his grip on the cutlery similar to a butter knife, and have been potentially less dangerous.
They tried that, you can see it in the bodycam video on the original article. First pepper spray, then a truncheon (baton) to feebly try and knock the knife out of his hand, then taser. TBF the baton seems to the only reasonable part. The reported "hit him with a baton" doesn't mean "beat him up" as might be implied, it means gave a single whack towards the knife in his hand, at arms length.
He still has the knife. I'm concerned if we leave him on his own he's going to hurt himself
So we decided to cut to the chase and hurt him properly ourselves.,.
The nature of the interaction with the police and the subsequent, unrelated passing.
"Unrelated" is a bit of a stretch, to put it mildly.
