[Closed] Osborne. How useless is he, then?

Tj sounds like you had a good school, mine didn't have a swimming pool ;(

Msp, we still get to vote for what we get offered. Eg if Tony Blair had been Tory I still wouldn't have voted for him. We may only get to vote for the selected but we get to not vote for them also.

Yeh crikey, that's a good one, but not perfect. When I played a lot of rugby, access/selection to county/national/club teams also had a large element of "who you knew" . If the forwards coach represented a school or uni, guess who made up the front row?

Tj I went to a state grammar school in the days of the 11 plus and would love to see them back, pupils and teachers are better suited to different types of pupils and teachers.

So your not really in a position to comment on those who are disadvantaged by education in a singular point in life, your experience is as one of the lucky ones.

teamhurtmore. Most public servants as the selection procedures are open and objective. Nurses, teachers to name but two types.

Msp As is anyone who had a good education.

Interesting TJ, but not my experience in teaching - lots of hiring of mates, same Uni colleagues etc.

And perfectly normal human behaviour really. Two identical candidates - one you know well, the other you don't. Who are you most likely to select? Everyone will bring some bias to any selection process. Read a CV and there may be something you/I doesn't like. Could be random, but always based on perceptions. There is no such thing as 100% open and objective selection in my experience.

At least they make an attempt - I bet you were not teaching in the state schools were you?

Friendships have to be declared in the selection process. Selection for interview is done blind with no names on the applications and scored off objective marking schedules. At interview friendships and family relationships should be declared and again its done as objectively as possible using the same set of questions for everyone.

Not based on who you know which is the crucial thing

There is no such thing as 100% open and objective selection in my experience.

Exactly.

This has turned into another TJ thread, a triumph of a misguided dogmatic ideology over reality.

OK - TJ thanks, that is a good, interesting example.

a triumph of a misguided dogmatic ideology over reality.

Tries to resist, must resist!!!!! arghhhhhhhh

so your experience of teaching was not in the public sector then? There has been a huge drive to make public sector appointments as objective as possible

Tries to resist, must resist!!!!! arghhhhhhhh

Go on, wade in.

clueless and thick

3bikeman - Member

given Thatcher destroyed manufacturing we dont have any manufacturing

Total myth- UK manufacturing was at an all-time high in 2010 and has grown consistently since the war. No idea why some people are so keen to do this country down.

When did he go to eton?

St Pauls, then Oxford.

NW and Goatster - since when have facts got in the way of a STW debate? 😉

Good point 😉

since when have facts got in the way of a STW debate?

Eton, St Pauls - it's irrelevant really, ...he's still as thick as sh*t 🙂

Britain is particularly good at design and manufacture, I hope you are right 'Northwind' - However as an engineer my experience is that manufacturing has reduced over the years - I wont argue the point, because if your right, manufacturing will help exports and therefore increase the GDP - I am not doing the country down only the shortsitedness of governments in the past - long live british manufacturing including 'Hope' ace MTB parts!!!

Tj you can't really compare Scotland's education system to the rest of the UK as its light years ahead of the crappy system we have in England and Wales. My wife having gone through the Scottish system and myself through the comprehensive experiment in the 80's I know which one I'd rather be educated by.

UK manufacturing was at an all-time high in 2010 and has grown consistently since the war.

FWIR, as a sector of the economy, manufacturing in the UK shrank about 17% during the Conservative reign in the 80's and 90's, and continued under Labour at about the same rate.

Fattatlasses - you may be correct to attack Osborne's policies but to simply say that he is as thick as....does not really need further comment!!

Why not go to the Eton College website and have a little browse at their entry (albeit scholarship) papers for boys ages 12 ( http://www.etoncollege.com/KSpapers.aspx) and then compare with a normal GSCE for pupils aged 16? Then go and have a look at St Paul's website and look at their entry policy ( http://www.stpaulsschool.org.uk/admissions) - TJ will love the blind entry policy - look at the specific entry for pupils from state schools and look at the schools stated vision ( http://www.stpaulsschool.org.uk/about-st-pauls/vision)

Then repeat

Eton, St Pauls - it's irrelevant really, ...he's still as thick as sh*t

So teamhurtmore - your experience in teaching where it was the old boys network - not the public sector then?

fattatlasses - Member

FWIR, as a sector of the economy, manufacturing in the UK shrank about 17% during the Conservative reign in the 80's and 90's, and continued under Labour at about the same rate.

OECD shows an increase in manufacturing by value added. Office of National Statistics, Pricewaterhousecooper, and CIPS all agree.

What we see is a relative decline but an absolute rise. Just had a quick google out of curiosity and the reports on the decline of manufacturing that I looked at were without exception using % of GDP as their metric. But o'course that's wrong- if other sectors outgrow manufacturing, then the % of GDP declines.

If anything, the Eton and StPauls websites just illustrate the problem of the public school system.

I'm not quite a pensioner yet, but I've been around long enough to have met a fair few people in all sorts of different social and work situations. I try not to judge people on their background, and of course not everyone who has gone through public school is a lame duck. However, IME, the idea that public schools allow the mediocre to achieve positions of power that they wouldn't achieve on a level playing field does ring true. Just because someone has spent years being coached into Public School, then through GCSE, A-levels and Oxbridge, it certainly doesn't prove that they're intelligent.

As far as thick politicians go, I don't think the Conservative party has a monopoly by any means - but they do seem to have more hapless/hopeless products of the public school system than other parties.

To give you an example, a friend of mine treats one of the members of a local business family. Apparently, the son who was in line to inherit the family business was shipped off to an elite public school, then went on to Oxbridge - but the father said that he just couldn't trust him to look after the business. So, guess what, the family suggested that the son stand as an MP (and he got elected!). Hmm....can't be trusted to run a medium sized family firm, but OK to help run the Country - Great eh?!

As someone who runs his own business and is a prospective employer, I feel very strongly that England & Wales would be much better off in the long term if it did away with Private/Public schools altogether, and came up with a decent system that provides everyone with exactly the same opportunity. However, at the moment, a lot of people seem happy to go along with the same old system of 'it's who you know, not what you know'!

But o'course that's wrong- if other sectors outgrow manufacturing, then the % of GDP declines.

I guess I can't get away from personally seeing one UK manufacturing company after another close down. I don't think anyone who is, or has, worked in manufacturing within the last 30 years can deny that the sector took an absolute battering in the 1980's and early 90's. However, a lot of the companies that did survive did so because they were fundamentally good businesses. Ironically, one of the biggest problems that I've seen in the last 10 years or so, is that some of the best 'survivor' companies (with great reputations for well designed and manufactured products), were bought by foreign companies just to be asset stripped and closed down. I can think of a long established company in Leeds and another in Sheffield, where their main competitors bought them simply to eliminate the competition.

My wife previously worked for an American company with manufacturing plants all over the World, and in the early 90's, the company closed down their UK factory, simply because it was the easiest Country for the parent company to close a factory in! So, even though the Dutch factory was less efficient and more expensive to run, the UK factory closed. (350 highly skilled engineering jobs went, plus all the business that sub-contracted parts suppliers had)

Again, a lot of this comes down to politicians who have lived in the
School/Uni/Career Politician bubble World - they simply have no clue as to what is happening in the real World, and they don't want to hear uncomfortable truths. One only has to listen to some of the bilge spouted by the current Govt to see that they're not business minded - couldn't run a proverbial in a brewery!

fattatlasses - Member

So, it's not manufacturing that has declined, it's the other sectors that have grown faster and left it lagging?

Aye, that's it exactly.

TandemJeremy - Member

So teamhurtmore - your experience in teaching where it was the old boys network - not the public sector then?

I don't think anyone who is, or has, worked in manufacturing within the last 30 years can deny that the sector took an absolute battering in the 1980's and early 90's.

It also took a battering in the late nineties and early noughties under New Labour :

[img] [/img]

Ernie, that graph does not tell you a single thing about the health of UK manufacturing. Though I suspect you know that?

I'm using fattatlasses's criteria to show that UK manufacturing fared no better under New Labour. I am very aware of your theory that everything is hunky dory with regards to UK manufacturing Northwind. And I'm certainly not gonna bother arguing.

I went to public school, the better ones are pretty tough to get into, need to do well at Common Entrance so got to be bright as well as have quite well off parents.

UK Manufacturing over the years:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/02/22/manufacturing_figures/

[img] [/img]

How about this graph ..... it comes in three colours and show how jobs in manufacturing fell substantial during the period which New Labour were in government, which as I say is fattatlasses's criteria.

[img] [/img]

ernie_lynch - Member

I'm using fattatlasses's criteria to show that UK manufacturing fared no better under New Labour.

How have you shown that? With a graph that tells us nothing about how UK manufacturing fared? Seems odd.

<edit- ah, a new post, with a [i]second[/i] graph that tells us nothing about how UK manufacturing fared. Seems even odder. >

a new post, with a second graph that tells us nothing about how UK manufacturing fared.

Are you deliberately being daft ? One last attempt :

[i]"I guess I can't get away from personally seeing one UK manufacturing company after another close down. I don't think anyone who is, or has, worked in manufacturing within the last 30 years can deny that the sector took an absolute battering in the 1980's and early 90's."[/i]

I post a graph which shows that job losses in manufacturing were just as great in the late 90 and 00s as they were in the 1980s and early 90s. I'm sure you perfectly understand the point. But don't let that stop you from pretending that you don't.

I think everyone understands that the number of jobs in manufacturing tells you nothing at all about the health of the manufacturing sector.

If you replace 10 skilled machine operators with 1 man and a CNC machine, does that mean the sector is "taking a battering"? Or, similiarly, if you move from making a million pounds worth of ships to a million pounds worth of pharmaceuticals?

A graph off?!??!! Why wasnt I invited?? 😯

*stoner spunk, everywhere!*

😉

It's horrible being ignored, isn't it.

[img] [/img]

I got my arse handed to me on a plate tonight, them lads are fast, I peeled off and headed home on the road after an hour, Im just not fit enough at the moment.
but great conditions, super grippy and warmer than i thought, I was over dressed again.

multi-task FAIL!

If you replace 10 skilled machine operators with 1 man and a CNC machine, does that mean the sector is "taking a battering"?

If you're talking about jobs yes.

And if you want to talk about manufacturing's share of total economic output, then that has indeed taken a battering.

One man might well being doing the work of ten men 30 years ago, but does that mean everything in manufacturing is just fine ?

As an example.......35 years ago a carpenter on site was expected to have one or two tool bags with only his hand tools, [i]possibly[/i] also an electric drill - but that it wasn't vital. He could go to work on public transport. Today a carpenter on site was expected to have, hand tools, circular saw, jigsaw, cordless drill, impact driver, router, router jigs, compound mitre saw, SDS drill, electric plane, first fix nail gun, second fix nail gun, [i]possibly[/i] also sander, plunge saw/rails, cordless jigsaw, cordless circular saw, cordless SDS drill, a few other things, a mobile phone, and a vehicle to carry it all in. That's a hell of a lot of manufactured goods. If the UK is producing the same amount of manufactured goods for carpenters as it was 35 years ago then I'm afraid that isn't good enough - even twice as many wouldn't be good enough. Next example. 35 years ago the average household had one TV, one cooker............

ernie_lynch - Member

One man might well being doing the work of ten men 30 years ago, but does that mean everything in manufacturing is just fine ?

Of course it doesn't. Luckily I am not asserting that increased efficiency proves [i]anything[/i]- I'm debunking your attempt to use employment as an indicator of the health of the sector.

ernie_lynch - Member

If the UK is producing the same amount of manufactured goods for carpenters as it was 35 years ago then I'm afraid that isn't good enough-even twice as many wouldn't be good enough.

First of all, by value added, we are in fact producing more. But value added is a tricky metric. You used the example of carpentry tools. The reason your carpenter can have a vanload of kit isn't just because we produce more tools- it's because the relative value of each tool has dropped. So, you don't need to produce 10 x the value of goods in order for everyone to have 10 x the goods.

Secondly, sticking with value added, why would twice as much not be good enough? You can find higher rates of growth elsewhere, but only in larger nations and in nations which weren't previously at our level of industrialisation. The only top manufacturing countries that have made a 200% increase are I believe the USA, Japan, Brazil, India and China. Probably Korea. Notice a trend? Germany, Italy and France didn't.

It goes without saying that this is an uneven playing field- we industrialised early and strongly and took a lead but we no longer have the untapped opportunities. Maintaining that disproporationate lead is an awful lot harder than closing the gap. And saying it's "not good enough" that we can't do the impossible is silly. .

ernie_lynch - Member

And if you want to talk about manufacturing's share of total economic output, then that has indeed taken a battering.

The only reason to do that in this context is to make a spurious argument about the health of the manufacturing sector.

Now I'll give you a tip here for free. You're arguing the wrong point, which is why you can't make it stick. But you're making a solid if obvious case about problems facing the UK economy [i]as a whole[/i]. Completely different to "industry has taken a hammering". You don't need industry to decline to have a problem so you wouldn't be left trying to prove that black is white. Your trade balance diagram would even be relevant.

On the downside, you wouldn't have anyone to argue with since I doubt anyone would disagree. And thus peace would be restored to the Shire.