You're arguing the wrong point....
And yet it is precisely [i]you[/i] who is doing that.
My point, which I successfully predicted you would continue to pretend not to understand, is that UK manufacturing, contrary to fattatlasses suggestion, did not do significantly better in the late 90 and 00s in terms of employment, 'company closures', than it did in the 1980s and early 90s.
Admittedly despite announcing "I'm certainly not gonna bother arguing" I later succumbed to temptation and foolishly also made the point that UK manufacturing, whatever its "health", wasn't satisfying UK needs in the way it had satisfying UK needs 30/40 years ago. I have no one else to blame but myself.
The reason your carpenter can have a vanload of kit isn't just because we produce more tools- it's because the relative value of each tool has dropped.
I strongly disagree with that statement. Relative value of each tool might well have dropped in the last 30/40 years, but that isn't the reason.
Blimey, talk about tangents! I thought this thread was about George Osborne !
Go to www.bis.gov.uk and read the Dec 2010 report on Uk manufacturing. It supports both your views in part. The overall decline, the split between higher technology and lower technology And the bad and good about job trends (8-10).
One obvious conclusion is that it is broadly unhelpful to consider manufacturing as a homogenous industry and therefore to make widespread conclusions either way.
I thought this thread was about George Osborne !
thm:
This thread merely confirms pre-determined prejudices and leads to a tired and pointless debate. No need to personalise the debate around Osborne or individual posters surely?
you started it thm 😉
TandemJeremy - MemberSo teamhurtmore - your experience in teaching where it was the old boys network - not the public sector then?
Ha, ha good point Stoner. I meant osborne's policies and the extent to which good or bad econ data was down to him specifically. But good to be bought up on any inconsistency 😉
Anyway is he moonlighting as a carpenter these days? Perhaps weshould give him and St Paul's more credit 😉 the school's website does say that this is not a place for keyboard warriors, sorry, coach potatoes!
teamhurtmore - MemberOne obvious conclusion is that it is broadly unhelpful to consider manufacturing as a homogenous industry and therefore to make widespread conclusions either way.
This, very much.
Talking about the 'manufacturing sector' is akin to dividing the economy up with the ol' primary-secondard-tertiary-quarternary sectors model.
Similarly, the terms 'creative industries', 'knowledge economy' and 'globalisation' are useless terms to band about without detail or nuance.
TandemJeremy - MemberSo teamhurtmore - your experience in teaching where it was the old boys network - not the public sector then?
Posted 14 hours ago
TandemJeremy - MemberSo teamhurtmore - your experience in teaching where it was the old boys network - not the public sector then?
Posted 10 hours ago
TandemJeremy - MemberSo teamhurtmore - your experience in teaching where it was the old boys network - not the public sector then?
Posted 12 minutes ago
😆
"excessive arguing" wasn't it ??
😀
I do think its pertinent to teamhurtmores position on things. his reluctance to answer really is an answer.
TJ it's much, much more fun to see how you assume I position things. So far from reality but fun nevertheless!
But to save the thread, the answer in this case is both, hence interested in your original reply which is where this line should have ended! Now can we end it for the sake of others?
Plus don't forget that ladies are also very capable of networking effectively especially in politics and education! ( re Old Boys Network)
Yeah right 🙄
If you had any significant experience in the public sector you would have known that recruitment is as objective as possible.
Thanks second giggle of the morning 😉 But I will pass on your thoughts to the deputy headmistress whose experiences are very different. Anyway back to the topic....
Point still stands - its so funny to listen to you as you have obvious massive gaps in your experience and you are unaware of how this skews your world view
😀 x3
😀 ^ 😀
you have obvious massive gaps in your experience and you are unaware of how this skews your world view
I dip in to the thread to see the level of ARMAGEDDON! and I get this.
Superb. Made my morning. 😆
If you had any significant experience in the public sector you would have known that recruitment is as objective as possible.
What did I say earlier about dogmatic ideology? This is bollocks TJ, it just means that your experience in the public sector is rose tinted. There are plenty of others here who have experience in the public sector who know that the vast majority of positions go to "known" candidates and the others are there to allow the system to go through it's motions.
I understand why you are banging on about it, as you want to sell this position as the paragon for elected officials, but those of us based in the real world know that most jobs are about who you know.
edit: TJ google "every schoolboy knows" and see what that brings you. (or "no true scotsman" which might be more apt)
If you had any significant experience in the public sector you would have known that recruitment is as objective as possible.
Mrs R went through a public sector recruitment process a not so long ago for a post she had already been informally told was hers (in fact the post was created to move her from a contract to a permanent post). The process she went through was very clearly designed not to select the best candidate (and in this case that decision had already been made) but to make sure that no one individual could be held accountable if a wrong decision was made.
Very different from the Osborne case where it's clear who's responsible for his appointment!
Seriously tho, people on here who don't answer questions put directly to them, but just ignore them, really have no credibility.
Cynic-al is right.
BTW have you stopped beating your wife yet?
Simple Yes or No answer please, no fudging the issue. 🙂
I've worked in the (English) education, science and health public/private sector in about equal amounts for the last 25 years.
Found far more "good chap-ism" in the public sector than the private. In the health sector all my HoDs made a thing of there being a hospital/medical school Lodge, all would far rather recruit from a "Good University" and as for anonymity of applicants, well that's so transparently easy to circumvent it's pathetic....
....this is of course anecdotal rather than evidential so not elegible in the stw kangaroo courthouse 😉
Dear God! I've avoided this thread since it was heading into Big Hitterdom. But this really is a worrying development....
the Big Hitters now tring to out-graph each other? Oh Hurray! Well done on finding the solution to how to make the ARMAGEDDON threads even less appealing to everyone else though. Don't underestimate what it is you've actually achieved. Amazing! No... really
So TJ's anecdotes count as evidence then?
😆A graph off?!??!! Why wasnt I invited??*stoner spunk, everywhere!*
This thread has truly gone menthol.
In the health sector all my HoDs made a thing of there being a hospital/medical school Lodge
Quite agree with you hence why I said Nurses and Teachers. Medics remain very much in thrall to the "right uni / club tie " thing
Another academic question:
Do we actually WANT to still be manufacturing things?
Surely the move to a 'knowledge based economy' represents a step up? Better to be highly educated and designing the world's cool stuff than slaving away in factories, surely?
TandemJeremy - Member.... I said Nurses and Teachers. Medics remain very much in thrall to the "right uni / club tie " thing
Clinical scientists, not medics - my HoDs were academics rather than clinicians.....
Toys, to the extent that tired, irrelevant, and perjorative questions are worth responding to, yes!
Mol - basic law of comparative advantage? Hence some of the stuff in the BIS report is very interesting.
Oops double post
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Teamhurtmore - pot kettle and black!
binners - a waffle? radical, man, truly radical
I've been told that Cat Sandwiches are where it's at now.
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sandwiches?
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That's just utter crêpe.
ernie_lynch - MemberMy point, which I successfully predicted you would continue to pretend not to understand, is that UK manufacturing, contrary to fattatlasses suggestion, did not do significantly better in the late 90 and 00s in terms of employment, 'company closures', than it did in the 1980s and early 90s.
Here's what you [i]actually[/i] said.
"It also took a battering in the late nineties and early noughties under New Labour" (along with, for reasons still unknown, a graph about the defecit of trade)
Not "it didn't do significantly better" and nothing about "in terms of employment". But "It took a battering".
I've seen people misunderstand or misinterpret other people's arguments on the internet many times so it's refreshing to see someone do it to their [i]own[/i] argument 😆
🙄 Yes that's correct Northwind, UK manufacturing didn't do significantly better the late 90s and 00s than it had done in the 80s and early 09s. In fact, it also took a battering, as fattatlasses describes it, in the late 90s and 00s.
It's sad to see you descend into petty trivia over words used btw. Try to deal more with the bulk of the argument in future 💡
And you just can't leave that [i]"graph about the defecit of trade"[/i] point alone can you ? You have to constantly bring up again as if its not an issue worth considering. Well you might not think it is, but many people consider the fact that since 1983 the UK has had a manufacturing deficit (for the first time since the Industrial Revolution) to be "a bad thing".
The reality is that UK manufacturing is not satisfying consumer demand for manufactured goods in the same way as it was 30 years ago. Whether we are manufacturing at the same level or better is not relevant in this respect - demand for manufactured goods in the UK has increased. Plus many people consider over reliance on non- manufactured sectors to be also "a bad thing". Making stuff is what creates [i]real[/i] material wealth.....not pushing money around.
Here's a nice link for you to a House of Commons Library article concerning UK manufacturing. There's a pretty graph with two shades of green titled "Manufacturing's Decline", have a look at it. The article also points out the concern that "all parties" have of being "overly dependent" on other sectors such as financial services. Which suggests a shift in attitude from say 30 years ago, when it was strongly argued that the UK should focus on wealth creation from the finance sector. It would appear that lessons have been learnt, although perhaps rather late in the day.
What's the point in arguing with someone who'll just move the goalposts? Even less someone who'll then pretend that actually they were there all the time. Delusional or dishonest, was the question in my mind but tbh I realise now it makes no difference. What a joke. What a politician.
So what's the answer Ernie?
Do we accept that we need to retain onshore skills, but must therefore pay over the odds for labour to attract and retain the best talent - a decision we have taken in key strategic skilled hi tech industries such as Aero Engine design and manufacture?
You've banged on about the balance of trade Ernie, but why on earth would a potential foreign customer choose to buy From the UK? Its a global market, the UK labour market is expensive compared with so, so many other countries.
Or do we accept that in order to maintain global competitiveness we need to reduce the cost of labour in this country and adjust what our expectations of living standards are?
What's the point in arguing with someone who'll just move the goalposts?
What "goalposts" ? Are you playing some sort of game ?
It's all pretty straightforward what I'm saying. The UK's reliance on manufacturing, and jobs within manufacturing, has declined over the last 30 years. I don't believe there has been a significant difference in this decline whether it has been under Tory governments or under New Labour governments, as a previous poster seemed to suggest.
Where's this goalpost moving you speak of ?
Furthermore I think this situation is "not a good thing", you seem to think that it is "not a bad thing".
You put a bit of spin on the situation (I notice you are now accusing me of being a politician - how ironic) by pointing out that we are still manufacturing plenty of stuff. I point out that it is not enough to satisfy substantial increases in demand for manufactured goods over the last 30 years. And I illustrate the fact that since 1983 the UK has had a manufacturing trade deficit, something which it previously never had.
I don't agree with your conclusion and you don't agree with mine. I said on the onset that I wasn't going to bother arguing, something which I have obviously spectacularly failed to achieve.
If you now feel that there is no point arguing with someone who apparently "moves the goalposts", then the simple, and I would imagine only solution, is don't. Just ignore me, I won't mind. After all I was somewhat reluctant to get involved in a pointless argument with a predetermined conclusion from the start.
ARMAGEDDON!
Ernie. Please, please, please STOP REFERRING TO 'MANUFACTURING' LIKE IT IS A COHERENT SET OF ACTIVITIES!!
But I like talking about manufacturing.
And if click on my link you'll see that the House of Commons Library also likes to talk about manufacturing. As I said, they've got a pretty graph titled "Manufacturing's Decline", which is quite nice.
Although to be fair I've probably had enough of talking about manufacturing for today. So you can take it easy and relax now CaptJon 🙂
Well if you enjoy it... but it weakens your argument and reads like a poor undergrad essay from someone who doesn't get the nuance.
Oh I think you'll find that I'm not much bothered if my posts sound like a poor undergrad essay from someone who doesn't get the nuance. Why would I want to get top marks for my essays ? I'm just happy plodding along the best I can with my not very good essays.
BTW did you check on my link - what did you think of it ? Would you give the House of Commons Library top marks for their recent briefing on manufacturing ? And what did you think of the title to their graph "Manufacturing's Decline" .......was the apostrophe in the right place ? I think that maybe it should have been after the "s". But hey, I'm no expert......I think it was grade 4 English CSE which I got, or maybe grade 3 - can't remember.
