MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
Have you got bottom worms Ernie?
What with you and Barnes having them, it seems to be a pandemic! 😯
Run away, run away!
OK ernie,
Just to go back to where we started this little debate to see if we can find a common starting point:
What was the cause of the switch in Cuba's agricultural system from conventional industrialised to largely organic small farms / urban agriculture?
Well if you want to say what I've already said, then OK - I'll say it again : [i]"Loss of cheap oil supplies was a very serious problem for Cuba after the collapse of the Soviet Union, however it no longer is"[/i]
But surely you had already seen that ? 😕
If however you want me to say that Cuba still doesn't access to cheap oil, then I can't help you - because Cuba clearly does have access to cheap oil.
Your comment, I'll remind you, was :
have a look at agriculture in Cuba since the fall of Soviet Communism (and the end of Cuba's access to cheap oil)
Well if you want to say what I've already said, then OK - I'll say it again : "Loss of cheap oil supplies was a very serious problem for Cuba after the collapse of the Soviet Union, however it no longer is"But surely you had already seen that ?
I did see that. And it would have been great if you'd put that in your first post on the subject, but you didn't. Trying to make it sound as if that was what you meant all along is disingenuous.
Just to repeat my point (as you've failed to answer my question above). It was the end of cheap oil from the Soviet Union that shocked Cuba into changing its agricultural system to a largely organic, highly [b]labour[/b] intensive one of small farms and urban agriculture.
When I made that point you seemed to be taking issue (with your first post) and then went on to claim that Cuba has a rosy future re' oil.
So (again), if you wouldn't characterise the trigger for Cuba's change as "the end of cheap oil", how would you like to characterise it?
But as per this digression into Cuba's current oil supply, I still disagree with your analysis.
AFAIC the only countries that have access to truly cheap (relative term) oil are countries that actually produce it. Back in the day Soviet oil was cheap because world supplies seemed limitless and it was just a question of how quick you could get the stuff out of the ground, and anyway, for political reasons the Russians weren't that bothered about actually being paid for it. Today it is a different story. Cuba might get some oil from Venezuala at a discount, but it is not "cheap" when you look at the way producer countries use it.
Cuba itself produces a limited amount of low grade oil. The 20 billion barrels you refer to is widely disputed (many think 5bn barrels) but even so it is in deep water and hard to recover (remember that little story about the Deepwater Horizon recently?) and currently they have extracted none of it commercially.
We'll have to disagree about whether that is a "rosy" situation.
You may as well learn to drive Elfin.
Don't need to. I can just ponce lifts off other people what have cars.
Good, though because you chose to respond to only that part of the post, I can only assume that you agree with the other assertions therein.
I feed my children non organic food and with the money saved take them to the zoo.
But as per this digression into Cuba's current oil supply, I still disagree with your analysis.
Strangely enough that's fine by me.......you are perfectly entitled to disagree. However it doesn't change the fact that imo Cuba is in no less a favourable position today, than it was back in the days of the Soviet Union - with regards to oil.
[b][i]"Cuba might get some oil from Venezuala at a discount"[/i][/b]
It is not a question that Cuba [i]might[/i] get [i]some[/i] oil from Venezuala at a discount.......Cuba [i]does[/i] get all its imported oil from Venezuala, and it is heavily discounted.
Furthermore Cuba today produces substantial amounts of its own oil, something which it never had back in the days of the Soviet Union - which hardly represents a worsening of the situation imo. Of course you are free to disbelieve, me, the Cuban government, and the CIA, if you so wish.
[url= http://www.reuters.com/article/2009/06/10/cuba-oil-idUSN1049707420090610 ]Oil now second-leading Cuban export - gov't report[/url]
[url= http://cia-world-fact-book.findthebest.com/question/72/130/How-big-is-Cuba-s-oil-reserves ]Cuba has 124,000,000 barrels of oil in proven reserves - CIA Fact Book[/url]
I know you don't bother to read the stuff I link to, but it looks like you don't even bother to read the articles at the end of your own links!
Oil now second-leading Cuban export - gov't report
What's this supposed to prove? The article is about Cuba importing Venezuelan oil, refining it in a joint venture plant and then re-exporting it.
it looks like you don't even bother to read the articles at the end of your own links!
😕 Of course I've read them ...... why wouldn't I have ?
The links prove the point that Cuba now exports oil. And which apparently currently represents Cuba's second leading export. Yes, analysts suggest that this probably includes some oil which comes from Cuba's own oil fields and some from Venezuela.
So what ? ...... I'll remind you that earlier in the thread you were suggesting that Cuba was oil starved, this is clearly not the case.
Not only has Cuba access to both Venezuelan and its own oil (both well below market prices btw) but it is also now a player in the global oil market - which brings it significant revenues.
So to sum up ........ Cuba has access to cheap Venezuelan oil to satisfy all of its import needs, it has proven oil reserves of its own, and it now exports oil which brings it significant revenues.......I reckon that paints a pretty rosy picture as far as oil access for Cuba is concerned. It is certainly incomparably different to the situation it was in immediately after the Soviet Union collapsed.
But as I said earlier, none of that means they want to piss the stuff - Cuba fully recognises the disastrous consequences of heavy reliance on oil. Both in terms of its effect on the environment, and global hunger.
Organic food's probbly got worms in it.
Have you got an anal/worm fixation Elfinman ? You best keep off the organic stuff, just in case 💡
Yes, analysts suggest that this probably includes some oil which comes from Cuba's own oil fields and some from Venezuela.
Does Cuba have its own oil? The Economist seems to think that they're not producing yet.
[url= http://www.economist.com/blogs/americasview/2010/11/cubas_oil_prospects ]
[/url]How much oil might actually lie in Cuba's sector of the Gulf of Mexico is a matter of dispute. The Cuban government estimates the figure to be 20 billion barrels—an amount which, if recoverable, would transform the country and end its current dependence on subsidised Venezuelan oil.
The price of petrol paid at the pumps in Venezuela would suggest that it would be quite lucrative to buy from Venezuela and sell on to other countries.
Back on topic some more oraganic food [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-12569011 ]here.[/url] 😆
Does Cuba have its own oil? The Economist seems to think that they're not producing yet.
Well The Economist isn't paying attention then - Cuba produces oil.
48,340 bbl/day (2009) according to the CIA Factbook .....about the same as Bahrain.
Which now simply begs the question of who to believe?
Which now simply begs the question of who to believe?
What, you suggest that The Economist should be believed then ?
Well maybe you could email that article to the headquarters of the Canadian energy company Sherritt International, I reckon they might be grateful - they obviously haven't seen it.
Because Sherritt will invest $100 million in their Cuban oil operations this year, up from $53 million last year. So it might save them some serious money if they read your Economist article - maybe they'll buy you a drink ? 💡
Let's just hope the fact that Sherritt International were actually producing 11,965 barrels of oil a day in Cuba last year, doesn't colour their opinion concerning the Economist's article eh ?
Other people who should read the Economist's article include the Chinese who are building Cuban oil rigs, and Italian and Spanish oil companies who, amongst others, are investing heavily in Cuban oil.
Oh, and maybe you should also tip off the CIA about the article in the Economist ?
Or maybe just give them a link to this thread 💡
@don simon,
Or, the non-boorish answer to your question, is that the Economist is talking about the 20 billion (or 5 billion) barrels of deep-water off-shore oil discovered recently.
Cuba does have some other small low-grade reserves.
this thread has been hijacked and diverted to Cuba
Cuba does have some other small low-grade reserves.
According to the CIA, Cuba's "small" amount of oil provides it with about 30% of their domestic needs. Which is probably in line with the Cuban government's claims.
You're actually quite funny underneath everything ernie, you also forgot to add Pebercan who had their contract terminated in 2009.
Boorish? 😯 😆
This feels a bit like the episode of Father Ted where Ted is trying to explain to Dougal the difference between small and far-away.
The "other small low-grade reserves" would be the ones that make up about 0.01% of global reserves.
Organic food is bull shit on a huge scale. I grew up on a big farm that grow cabbages in industrial quantities, the difference between organic and not organic often is the BAG they put them in...also just because its ORGANIC it does not mean that pesticides are not used on them, only ORGANIC ones, some of which are just as deadly if ingested as non organic ones! but im just be a simply country person, i don't know any thing like as much about agricultural production as you smart city foke!!!
......make up about 0.01% of global reserves
What's your point righttime .......... that Cuba isn't a major oil producer ? Well now ..... no one said that they were - did they ? But someone [i]did[/i] suggest that Cuba had no access to cheap oil, namely [i]you[/i], which is clearly false. [u]All[/u] of the oil which Cuba accesses is cheap, ie, below the global market price, either because it is domestically produced, or imported from Venezuela...... about 30/70.
The end of cheap Soviet oil in 1991 might well have been a wakeup call for Cuba, but to today the issues are different. And yet Cuba is still determined to fight over reliance on oil. This is for a variety of reasons including, deep concern for the devastating effects of climate change, and the equally devastating effects on food production in the Third World....... a very important point which should not be dismissed with false claims that its all down to Cuba's lack of access to cheap oil.
As I have already pointed out, Fidel has written many articles and given many speeches on the issues. In fact, he considers issues such as climate change and global hunger to be of equal importance to the political struggles against neocolonialism.
[i]"The societies of consumption and squandering of material resources are incompatible with the idea of economic growth and a clean planet" [/i] - Fidel Castro.
Just one of his many speeches on the above issues :
[url= http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=5278 ]Transforming Food into Fuel - the colossal squandering of cereals destined to fuel production[/url]
Quote :
[i]"The worst may be yet to come: a new war aimed at securing gas and oil supplies that can take humanity to the brink of total annihilation"[/i]
OK ernie,
just to satisfy my curiosity, when I said
have a look at agriculture in Cuba since the fall of Soviet Communism (and the end of Cuba's access to cheap oil)
what do you think I meant?
and if you don't think I should have used the word "end", how might I have phrased it better?
just to satisfy my curiosity
No really ......... you shouldn't be so curious about things of such little importance.
But if you really are that concerned with RE : [i]"how might I have phrased it better?"[/i] then I can only say that I really wasn't bothered with how you phrased it.
I simply responded with : "Cuba has access to cheap oil" as a point of information - which apparently you weren't very happy about. And I did so because it's true, ie, whatever the situation was 20 years ago, today, Cuba has access to cheap oil. A fairly important point imo because Cuba, as I've pointed out in my previous post, is determined to fight over reliance on oil for a whole variety of very important reasons.
So, in your universe, given that the Cubans didn't lose their access to cheap oil, why do you think they completely changed their agricultural system from the same sort of petrochemical based intensive system as everyone else with access to cheap oil, to one that used almost no oil and was therefore largely organic?
So, in your universe....
You see, presumably because you keep coming back you are keen to carry this on, but now I'm afraid I can't be arsed - because of silly infantile comments like that.
Specially as it's a prelude to falsely claiming that I had said [i]"the Cubans didn't lose their access to cheap oil"[/i] when you know full well that I had made the following statement :
[i]"Loss of cheap oil supplies was a very serious problem for Cuba after the collapse of the Soviet Union, however it no longer is."[/i]
So yeah, I can't be arsed anymore ..........Sorry.
As I've already pointed out, you only made that statement once you started backtracking.
Sure you can have a go at me for being a bit flippant, but the point is you know you are wrong on the substantive point.
In the early nineties the Cubans lost their support from the Soviet Union when it collapsed. I think that any reasonable person might characterise that as the "end" of cheap oil.
And that was the reason that Cuba changed its agricultural system.
Nowadays Cuba does get some oil (but not nearly so much as it got in Soviet days) from Venezuela, but it is far from "cheap". They may pay fewer dollars for it than world prices, but instead they provide Venezuela with up to 20,000 medical and other professional staff.
I'm glad you've stopped looking for ways to try and misinterpret what I've said - you're right, it is a waste of time.
Nowadays Cuba does get some oil (but not nearly so much as it got in Soviet days) from Venezuela, but it is far from "cheap".
Do you just make it up as you go along rightplace ? Cuba gets its oil from Venezuela at 40% discount - that is very clearly "cheap". Very cheap in fact.
And as for the accusation of "backtracking", I can assure you that I stand by very single word I've posted on the matter.
You are obviously rattled that someone has the temerity to challenge your misleading comments..........I'll bear that in mind for the future 🙂