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and for the record I dont buy organic, and would much prefer targetted wildlife friendly measures to be used on farms without all the guff that goes along with organic, but your initial point about it not being any good for wildlife compared to conventional farming is plainly just wrong.
Now please tell me you were joking about the Environmental Studies thing because your grasp of logic and basic science seems quite shocking.
Bleh.
Elfinsafety - MemberWhich, let's face it, is true. As proven by the level of outrage on this very thread
Outrage ? You see outrage on this thread ? ........... I see dismissive mocking.
So at what level would you put this "level of outrage" then ?
Now please tell me you were joking about the Environmental Studies thing because your grasp of logic and basic science seems quite shocking.
Of course he's joking! The only thing he's a professor of is talking crap on an internet forum - a chair he's very much entitled to.
The concept of organic agriculture is fine, but...1) If it was adopted globally, there'd be a massive food shortage
Not necessarily.
Actually, organic allotments (or any allotments) can produce a much higher yield per acre than intensive farming. BUT, it is very labour intensive. Which is why we prefer to use petrochemical fertilizers and pesticides and use enormous machines to grow our food. Oil is still cheap compared to labour, but we COULD easily feed the global population off the land we have using organic methods. It's just that a few more of us would have to work on the land (but given that we have 5 million unemployed in this country alone...)
you have thedebating style of a three yearold
Now you've had to resort to insults, I no longer need to consider anything you have to say. 'Night night.
You didn't answer my question
Just because I did not respond, does not necessarily mean I don't have an answer...
What's basically happened here, is:
'Organic food is a big con to make the guilty feel a bit better about their excessive and destructive levels of consumption'
'HOW DARE YOU????'
I'm right though aren't I? Go on, deep down, you know I am. You've already admitted it to yourselves, haven't you? Which is why you're so angry. Oh Whell.
This'll make you laugh though. I've only gone and accidentally bought 'organic' green beans, haven't I? 😆
They were on special offer half price. I've cooked them with chicken and mushrooms in herby garlic butter, and served it all up with some tagliatelli. It's ready now, so I'm going to go and enjoy my meal, and watch a programme about sculpture.
Sweet dreams!
X
It's just that a few more of us would have to work on the land (but given that we have 5 million unemployed in this country alone...)
Define 'a few', on a global scale...
It's simply not a workable solution in the modern world. As with TJ's idealistic views on energy efficiency and being totally renewable, it's too far removed from where we are today to ever work on a global scale, which is the scale in which it needs to operate.
Now you've had to resort to insults, I no longer need to consider anything you have to say. 'Night night
truth hurts does it, because there has been very little truth in any of the opinions you've tried to dress up as facts 😆
Sweet dreams!
Makes mental note NEVER to reply to a freddedprat thread again. Simply not worth the hassle...
you have the debating style of a three year old[b]"Now you've had to resort to insults"[/b]
I thought he was being quite generous.
And TBF, I doubt whether there are any three year olds on here to feel insulted.
Now you've had to resort to insults, I no longer need to consider anything you have to say. 'Night night.
I'm not 100% on the terminology, but is this a flounce?
is this a flounce?
No, but it's probably the start of the current (quite long-lasting) persona disintegrating into madness and a banning. 🙂
Mmm, that was tasty. Can't really say if the beans 'tasted' any better, tbh. Soz.
I thought he was being quite generous.
Could be, could be. I have the attention span of a three year old, that's fo' sho'.
Outrage ? You see outrage on this thread ?
Thinly veiled outrage, yes Ernie. From you too. As exemplified from your nasty and hurtful comments earlier. You're angry that someone has come along and burst your cosy little bubbles, that's why you're angry. I know I'm right, and so do you; you just need to embrace Elfintruth. You'll be happier for doing so, trust me. Life will become more comfortable.
So at what level would you put this "level of outrage" then ?
Strongly Worded Letter To The Daily Telegraph?
Actually Quite Miffed?
Never Been So Insulted All This Week?
Somewhere around that sort of level I'd imagine.
Makes mental note NEVER to reply to a freddedprat thread again. Simply not worth the hassle...
What a result! Zokes, if you ever do respond to owt I post on here, you owe me a hundred pounds. For every single reply. And that applies to any thread I post on. Legally binding. 🙂
Although you've actually supported my own view that 'organic' food is a lovely Western ideal, rather than a propperly feasible strategy that can be applied globally. Thanks for that. 😉
Dream a little dream for me....
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No, but it's probably the start of the current (quite long-lasting) persona disintegrating into madness and a banning.
😆
Actually the therapy's going really well, BD! 😀
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Somehow, this B+W version is even more unsettling, I feel. What do youse reckon?
Define 'a few', on a global scale...It's simply not a workable solution in the modern world. As with TJ's idealistic views on energy efficiency and being totally renewable, it's too far removed from where we are today to ever work on a global scale, which is the scale in which it needs to operate.
Well, as you obviously realise, I was being ironic. By "a few" I meant "loads"
However, who's to say what is going to be workable in the future? It's only really in the last 30-40 years that we have fully moved away from a sustainable, understandable, robust way of life, and we have only been able to do it with the aid of oil. Take away the oil and maybe your "not a workable solution" might become "the only available solution" Just because you don't like the idea doesn't mean it might not work out that way, so why burn all our bridges and continue headlong down the road to a world where everything we do as individuals is so specialised that no-one understands completely how anything works anymore and all of our food arrives from God knows where, grown by God knows who under God knows what conditions (until it doesn't)?
OTOH, maybe having a few hundred thousand currently unemployed people working (and I'm not talking about some kind of imposed slavery, but more the sort of thing that plenty of old boys on allotments do for fun) in agriculture might not be such a bad thing?
This thread disturbs me.
Oh, one useful thing about organic food is that organic 'made' food, i.e. not raw ingredients, often tastes quite different because it prohibits the use of certain chemicals etc.
Sometimes this can be good, and I assume sometimes less good. Heinz organic ketchup tastes much better than the non-organic one IMO, as do most organic houmous.
Different issue to organic veg though.
Just as an example BTW, have a look at agriculture in Cuba since the fall of Soviet Communism (and the end of Cuba's access to cheap oil)
Here you go - I've found an article for you: [url= http://earthtrends.wri.org/updates/node/306 ]Cuban agriculture [/url]
Truth is, it's pretty idealistic to imagine much rapid change to global farming and food production methods. Can't see the likes of the USA and China making such radical changes any time soon
The same might be said of their attitude to manufacturing and recycling. So why should we bother? you may as well learn to drive Elfin. Stop recycling (your arguments too) and not worry about your own, personal environmental impact, its just a drop (of oil) in the ocean. No one else is bothering, so why should anyone?
Outrage ? You see outrage on this thread ?[b]"Thinly veiled outrage, yes Ernie"[/b]
Who are these people who thinly veil their outrage ?
Do they not know that outrage should be expressed in a, well, outraged manner ? ......they should "out" their rage, you could say.
you just need to embrace Elfintruth
😕 I thought you only held the rights to Elfinbollox ® ?
you may as well learn to drive Elfin.
Don't need to. I can just ponce lifts off other people what have cars. 😀
I thought you only held the rights to Elfinbollox ® ?
You leave my bollox alone...
the end of Cuba's access to cheap oil
Cuba has access to cheap oil ......100,000 barrels of Venezuelan oil per day, with up 40% discount. In return Cuba provides medical treatment to Venezuelans. On top of that, Cuba discovered 20bn barrels of its own oil a couple of years ago, about the same reserves as the US. At the present, Cuba produces enough oil for about half of its consumption.
Having said that, Commandant Fidel is very concerned about the effects of biofuels on the environment, so don't expect Cuba to take a cavalier attitude on the issue. In fact he has written much concerning the subject.
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Just so you all know I recently did my own scientific test on whether or not organic vegetables taste better. First I lined up two tomatoes, and two red peppers. One of each was from Able & Cole, and the other from my local Morrisons.
Then using my expert tastebuds I ate each of them, a sprinkle of salt on the tomatoes because that tastes so good.
I can without doubt declare as a statement of fact that the organic stuff tasted far, yes far, better than the non organic equivalent.
Conclusive evidence right there. Case closed.
Yes because I'm Professor of Environmental Studies at the Uniservity of London.
glad you don't teach my relatives, can't even correctly spell your place of work! 😉
We buy veg from the local farmers Market and grow what we can. What we grow is as natural as it can be. What we buybis possibly not, not sure tbh, but it's travelled far less, it's cheaper, it's fresher, lasts longer, tastes better and it supports local business. In my book that's more important
@ernie lynch
Cuba has access to cheap oil ......100,000 barrels of Venezuelan oil per day, with up 40% discount. In return Cuba provides medical treatment to Venezuelans. On top of that, Cuba discovered 20bn barrels of its own oil a couple of years ago, about the same reserves as the US. At the present, Cuba produces enough oil for about half of its consumption.
The point I was making was more about their approach to agriculture, rather than oil. But I don't believe the picture is as rosy as you paint it. Google a few more articles.
"Discovering" oil isn't the same as extracting it.
Also, the fact that they produce half their oil doesn't mean they have half as much oil as us! It means they produce half of the limited supply they have.
based on several facts that i just made up, the only way we could feed 7billion people with organic food is to clear the forests, to use the land to make up for the lower crop yields.
for the sake of the environment, all trees will have to die.
i think what elfin is trying to say is that we need to either get rid of the forests to grow healthier better tasting and more cost efficient organic food for gay muslim swans, or he's saying that we need to cull over half the population of the world to ensure that our forests are kept and that london is the worst place to live in the UK.
either way i'd fight and die for his right to say so, my gran was involved in the war and shit.
the fact that they produce half their oil doesn't mean they have half as much oil as us!
😕 I'm pretty sure I didn't say that.
And yes, Cuba's oil situation [b][u]is[/u][/b] pretty rosy these days. And no, I don't need to "google more articles" to be aware that Cuba oil imports needs are satisfied by cheap Venezuelan supplies. Furthermore, it is an established fact that Cuba has its own, rather large, proven reserves. And that it currently extracts approximately half of its current needs.
Loss of cheap oil supplies was a very serious problem for Cuba after the collapse of the Soviet Union, however it no longer is.
Of course all this doesn't mean they feel that they can piss the stuff like there's no tomorrow. And not least because as I've pointed out, Fidel and the CPC are seriously concerned about environmental and climate change issues. They are also worried about the effect oil dependency has on the Third World - not only because of the increased risk of pollution and climate related catastrophes, but because of the pressure it places on Third World countries to produce cash crops to pay for oil imports - whilst the land and resources should in preference, be used to alleviate hunger.
So you are right concerning Cuba's determination not to be over dependant on fossil fuel, a message which they also try to get over to others. But wrong to suggest that this is simply down to [i]"the end of Cuba's access to cheap oil"[/i].
And I'm pretty sure I didn't say that you did say that.
But you implied that Cuba had plenty oil.
I disagree.
[url= http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/01/25/cuba-energy-oil-idUSN2529045820110125 ]Cuban oil supply[/url]
you implied that Cuba had plenty oil
Did I ? I gave you figures relating to Cuba's oil reserves, cheap imports, and domestic production. You decide whether that's "plenty".
And to help you, here's a "fact" supplied by the CIA ........which is no friend of Cuba
[url= http://cia-world-fact-book.findthebest.com/question/72/130/How-big-is-Cuba-s-oil-reserves ]Cuba has 124,000,000 barrels of oil in proven reserves[/url]
What I did "imply" was that Cuba has access to cheap oil - something which you denied, and yet is backed up by facts.
Are you actually physically wriggling as you type?
Any environmental 'advantages' of organic food production are negated by it's transportation
Except that organic food isn't NECESSARILY transported miles, nor is it NECESSARILY packed in plastic. And if two things are both packed in plastic but one is organic - which is better?
Organics = better for the environment (sort of) and better for the soil. Soil is complex stuff.
Are you actually physically wriggling as you type?
I take it by that comment you do not accept Cuba receives heavily discounted oil from Venezuela.
Have you got some proof to suggest that this is not the case ?
Or just smart-arse comments ?
i think what elfin is trying to say is that we need to either get rid of the forests to grow healthier better tasting and more cost efficient organic food for gay muslim swans, or he's saying that we need to cull over half the population of the world to ensure that our forests are kept and that london is the worst place to live in the UK.
Don't be so ridiculous. A swan could be gay, but it cannot be Muslim and gay. Or even just Muslim. Or indeed a member of a whole host of faiths, tbf.
As for the London thing; I appreciate that you're an imbecile, so I shan't add to your torment any further. Best if you go and have a lie down.
Are you actually physically wriggling as you type?
Has Ernie got worms? 😯
Has he been seen shuffling along on his bottom in New Addington again?
It's not funny you know. He really does suffer so... 🙁
I think rightplacerighttime has popped out for a moment Elfinman, I sure he'll be back to explain why I might be "wriggling".
Have you got bottom worms Ernie?
What with you and Barnes having them, it seems to be a pandemic! 😯
Run away, run away!
OK ernie,
Just to go back to where we started this little debate to see if we can find a common starting point:
What was the cause of the switch in Cuba's agricultural system from conventional industrialised to largely organic small farms / urban agriculture?
Well if you want to say what I've already said, then OK - I'll say it again : [i]"Loss of cheap oil supplies was a very serious problem for Cuba after the collapse of the Soviet Union, however it no longer is"[/i]
But surely you had already seen that ? 😕
If however you want me to say that Cuba still doesn't access to cheap oil, then I can't help you - because Cuba clearly does have access to cheap oil.
Your comment, I'll remind you, was :
have a look at agriculture in Cuba since the fall of Soviet Communism (and the end of Cuba's access to cheap oil)
Well if you want to say what I've already said, then OK - I'll say it again : "Loss of cheap oil supplies was a very serious problem for Cuba after the collapse of the Soviet Union, however it no longer is"But surely you had already seen that ?
I did see that. And it would have been great if you'd put that in your first post on the subject, but you didn't. Trying to make it sound as if that was what you meant all along is disingenuous.
Just to repeat my point (as you've failed to answer my question above). It was the end of cheap oil from the Soviet Union that shocked Cuba into changing its agricultural system to a largely organic, highly [b]labour[/b] intensive one of small farms and urban agriculture.
When I made that point you seemed to be taking issue (with your first post) and then went on to claim that Cuba has a rosy future re' oil.
So (again), if you wouldn't characterise the trigger for Cuba's change as "the end of cheap oil", how would you like to characterise it?
But as per this digression into Cuba's current oil supply, I still disagree with your analysis.
AFAIC the only countries that have access to truly cheap (relative term) oil are countries that actually produce it. Back in the day Soviet oil was cheap because world supplies seemed limitless and it was just a question of how quick you could get the stuff out of the ground, and anyway, for political reasons the Russians weren't that bothered about actually being paid for it. Today it is a different story. Cuba might get some oil from Venezuala at a discount, but it is not "cheap" when you look at the way producer countries use it.
Cuba itself produces a limited amount of low grade oil. The 20 billion barrels you refer to is widely disputed (many think 5bn barrels) but even so it is in deep water and hard to recover (remember that little story about the Deepwater Horizon recently?) and currently they have extracted none of it commercially.
We'll have to disagree about whether that is a "rosy" situation.
You may as well learn to drive Elfin.
Don't need to. I can just ponce lifts off other people what have cars.
Good, though because you chose to respond to only that part of the post, I can only assume that you agree with the other assertions therein.
I feed my children non organic food and with the money saved take them to the zoo.
But as per this digression into Cuba's current oil supply, I still disagree with your analysis.
Strangely enough that's fine by me.......you are perfectly entitled to disagree. However it doesn't change the fact that imo Cuba is in no less a favourable position today, than it was back in the days of the Soviet Union - with regards to oil.
[b][i]"Cuba might get some oil from Venezuala at a discount"[/i][/b]
It is not a question that Cuba [i]might[/i] get [i]some[/i] oil from Venezuala at a discount.......Cuba [i]does[/i] get all its imported oil from Venezuala, and it is heavily discounted.
Furthermore Cuba today produces substantial amounts of its own oil, something which it never had back in the days of the Soviet Union - which hardly represents a worsening of the situation imo. Of course you are free to disbelieve, me, the Cuban government, and the CIA, if you so wish.
[url= http://www.reuters.com/article/2009/06/10/cuba-oil-idUSN1049707420090610 ]Oil now second-leading Cuban export - gov't report[/url]
[url= http://cia-world-fact-book.findthebest.com/question/72/130/How-big-is-Cuba-s-oil-reserves ]Cuba has 124,000,000 barrels of oil in proven reserves - CIA Fact Book[/url]
I know you don't bother to read the stuff I link to, but it looks like you don't even bother to read the articles at the end of your own links!
Oil now second-leading Cuban export - gov't report
What's this supposed to prove? The article is about Cuba importing Venezuelan oil, refining it in a joint venture plant and then re-exporting it.
it looks like you don't even bother to read the articles at the end of your own links!
😕 Of course I've read them ...... why wouldn't I have ?
The links prove the point that Cuba now exports oil. And which apparently currently represents Cuba's second leading export. Yes, analysts suggest that this probably includes some oil which comes from Cuba's own oil fields and some from Venezuela.
So what ? ...... I'll remind you that earlier in the thread you were suggesting that Cuba was oil starved, this is clearly not the case.
Not only has Cuba access to both Venezuelan and its own oil (both well below market prices btw) but it is also now a player in the global oil market - which brings it significant revenues.
So to sum up ........ Cuba has access to cheap Venezuelan oil to satisfy all of its import needs, it has proven oil reserves of its own, and it now exports oil which brings it significant revenues.......I reckon that paints a pretty rosy picture as far as oil access for Cuba is concerned. It is certainly incomparably different to the situation it was in immediately after the Soviet Union collapsed.
But as I said earlier, none of that means they want to piss the stuff - Cuba fully recognises the disastrous consequences of heavy reliance on oil. Both in terms of its effect on the environment, and global hunger.