I am wondering if any of you are interested at all in North American Indians.
I don't mean, of course, the individual human beings who happen to be of that extraction; I mean these ancient peoples, their histories, and their cultures.
Since moving the UK 13 years ago, I have hardly so much as heard a reference to them, and yet when I have been in Germany, I have come across more than one. I am also told that German kids learn a little bit about them in school.
So, did you play 'cowboys and indians' as a kid? Did you learn anything about the various tribes growing up? Is the subject something of anything more than a passing interest to you?
Just curious, really.
Did you learn anything about the various tribes growing up?
Yes, I learnt that the White Man broke every single one of his promises except the one about taking our land.
I learnt we're supposed to call them American Natives.
and like indigenous peoples the world over, where there's a dominant non-native (in the sense of settlers from the point of western colonisation) or immigrant population it's the indigenous peoples that tend to live on the worse land, have the worst education opportunities and health care and live for significantly shorter lives.
Yes to cowboys and indians as a nipper, I had a cowboy hat and a sheriffs badge a wooden tomahawk and a feathery headdress so could play either role.
I think there might be less interest because there's just less exposure to the subject these days. There's an occasional big screen western every few years but in the seventies, the lone ranger was on Saturday morning TV and there were loads of movies that seemed to be on TV every other week.
As an adult i don't have more than a passing interest, beyond the hollywood portrayal it's not something that I've any connection to.
ernie_lynch - Member
the one about taking [b]our[/b] land.
You're First Nations, Ernie?
Our education regarding non indigenous peoples is best described a a little Apache.
Sorry, I can't help it.
I'd completely understand if someone wanted to Arapaho round my head for that one.
it's the indigenous peoples that tend to live on the worse land
I've never understood why the wealthiest land owners in the United States aren't Native Americans, specially in a country which values the right to private property so highly.
You're First Nations, Ernie?
You were asking specifically about our childhood experiences, did you think I always played the cowboy ffs ?
North American Indians
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Well when I was young they weren't called native americans. But yes played cowboys and indians but that came from the incluence of westerns, as did knowing a bit about the tribes.
[i]Yes, I learnt that the White Man broke every single one of his promises except the one about taking our land.[/i]
So are you a native american ernie_lynch?
[i]I've never understood why the wealthiest land owners in the United States aren't Native Americans, specially in a country which values the right to private property so highly. [/i]
Because they were kicked off their (good) land and moved to the crap land.
They were, basically, screwed over massively
If you're interested, this book is about covers it. I read about half but it gets sadly repetitive...
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Being in the building trade Ernie I'd assume you'd rather not be the cowboy... We studied the plains Indians in history and cowboys/ cattlemen, the rights and wrongs were not pushed but it was pretty obvious who got the shitty end of that particular ( short ) part of american history. ( we even got to watch a man called horse and little big man.. )
Didn't learn a great deal at school, though we did have a book at home which was quite informative, and didn't sugar coat things too much.
Visited quite a few museums in the US when I was there last year and the stories of the total destruction visited upon them by incoming non-native Americans were pretty depressing (e.g. the Trail of Tears and the Indian Wars). The National Museum of the American Indian in Washington DC was quite revealing inasmuch as it only had fragments of lost cultures to show - some artifacts, faded or fading languages and traditions.
Spent some time in the Navajo lands (a big chunk of Arizona) which was interesting - they are clinging on (largely by virtue of their land being not all that desirable) and in fact making a bit of money from oil, but their towns were still pretty miserable.
There was quite an interesting Reddit Ask Me Anything with a Navajo guy which is worth reading for a perspective on what it's like now: [url= https://www.reddit.com/r/iama/comments/3d364l/iama_navajo_from_the_navajo_nation_aka_navajo/ ]Reddit AMA[/url]
All in all it's not surprising that period of history doesn't get much coverage because it was a pretty dismal time, embarrassing to look back on as the 'victors' and a source of shame. Not greatly different to how Australian aboriginals were treated, and still are. Having been to similar exhibitions in Australia one tends to leave feeling pretty unimpressed with humanity.
Native Americans are quite proud to call themselves "Indians".
"[i]The National Congress of American Indians, founded in 1944, is the oldest, largest and most representative American Indian and Alaska Native organization serving the broad interests of tribal governments and communities"[/i]
Did any 70s kids not play 'cowboys and indians'?
We didn't learn anything about Native Americans at school but I do remember my primary school having a great library book on the subject.
I started reading 'Bury my heart at Wounded Knee' a couple of year ago. Haven't managed to finish it. Great book, just find it rather depressing.
I am very interested in a lot of Native American history, Leonard Peltier and AIM etc
Last year I went to Wounded Knee and Pine Ridge, very depressing places. Real poverty and what felt like total defeat. No casinos in nowhere South Dakota.
The Rich Hall program about hollywood's depictions of Native Americans that BBC4 showed a few years back was well worth a watch if it's ever on again.
I deliberately used a term that would both attract attention, and be immediately understood. I have no idea what Americans call their aboriginal peoples, but in Canada we referred to them as 'First Nations'. Somehow, I doubt that would have garnered many responses on here.
That said, however much a misnomer it is, 'Indian' still carries historical cachet.
Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee was quite a shocker for a 12-year-old who still thought the US was all freedom and apple pie, and that the cowboys were the good guys.
The Rich Hall program about hollywood's depictions of Native Americans that BBC4 showed a few years back was well worth a watch if it's ever on again.
This one?
I can't watch that but I think that's the right name. Cheers.
in Canada we referred to them as 'First Nations'
I prefer the term 'Native American' as the suggestion that white people aren't proper native Americans is more insulting imo 🙂
My mate's mum is half Native American and half Japanese. Her father was a Native American who at the end of WW2 ended up asa guard at an internment camp in California. Her mother was a young girl in the camp. Cue Hollywood ending…
I think Mad Frankie Fraser was part Cherokee.
This used to annoy me when I was younger
Her father was a Native American who at the end of WW2 ended up asa guard at an internment camp in California. Her mother was a young girl in the camp.
So injun savages were violating white girls as recently as WW2.
Cue Hollywood ending…
The cavalry turned up just in time ?
'History of the American West' GCSE history syllabus in my school, that and 'medicine through time'. I think I had a pretty good deal with those.
ernie_lynch - Member
Her father was a Native American who at the end of WW2 ended up a sa guard at an internment camp in California. Her mother was a young girl in the camp.
So injun savages were violating white girls as recently as WW2.Cue Hollywood ending…
The cavalry turned up just in time ?
Nope, they just got married and had 2 kids. All dull really. As a side effect Rachel has cousins with some seriously cool names.
I was brought up in Florida, the only reference I have to the indigenous people of the USA are either Dutch/German/Italian or British (who they quite happily claim to have pushed out) and Armish.
Lots of history detailing the revolution though but no Injunz.
Nope, they just got married and had 2 kids.
Well no wonder that I don't remember seeing the film !
I'm very much interested. I was gutted that when I went to Washington DC the amazing new museum of native american things wasn't finished.
What interests me is that it was effectively a stone-age culture when the Europeans arrived. So those early explorers were effectively time travellers. And they wrote down a lot of stuff, and even took pictures. And then the later explorers wrecked everything.
America as a whole is the biggest petri dish in history.
Re the name, Native Americans aren't Indian, but then white people aren't white and black people aren't black either, so... *shrug* depends what they like to be called dunnit.
And then the later explorers wrecked everything.
To fair despite our romanticized image I doubt that being a hunter-gather is a whole bundle of fun.
Bringing them into the 19th century wasn't the crime imo, it was the way they were treated.
Timely subject as I've suddenly learned quite a bit about them over the last few weeks, because...
I've been playing Assassin's Creed 3, and whilst the AC series are obviously dramatised stories they come with actual historical backstory on the characters and places you encounter. AC3 is (so far) set mostly around Boston and the surrounding frontier in the mid- to late-1700's (ie, the American Revolution).
We really were a bunch of bastards, weren't we.
Im with wednesday
White man came across the sea
He brought us pain and misery
He killed our tribes he killed our creed
He took our game for his own need
We fought him hard we fought him well
Out on the plains we gave him hell
But many came too much for Cree
Oh will we ever be set free?
Riding through dust clouds and barren wastes
Galloping hard on the plains
Chasing the redskins back to their holes
Fighting them at their own game
Murder for freedom the stab in the back
Women and children are cowards attack
Run to the hills, run for your lives
Run to the hills, run for your lives
Not a really a Maiden fan ... but love this song
I think its because its a quite modern history and on such a grand scale, but taking land happened in Great Britain for ages and many of them still have it (such as the Monarchy) -Celts, Romans, Saxons, Vikings, Normans, Danes etc.
To fair despite our romanticized image I doubt that being a hunter-gather is a whole bundle of fun.Bringing them into the 19th century wasn't the crime imo, it was the way they were treated.
How much reading have you done on this? I've not done a lot, but some.
The crime was modernising *against their will*. Had the Europeans set up shop next door and been sympathetic, then I'm sure there would have been a lot of cultural sharing going on. However the behaviour of the Europeans forced the natives to be conservative, so they didn't want things to change.
A lot of what we regard as Native American culture was intrduced by the white (or olive skinned) man. The practice of taking scalps is the most touted example but its worth remembering that horses were introduced to North America by the Spanish. Without them the whole plains culture (the classic holywood western type indian) would not have existed in the form it did.
It interesting to see how some European objects were adapted for different uses - bottle glass and gun flints knapped into arrow heads for example.
I read a book once which contrasted the fates of the North American and Canadian tribes, who suffered less under the white man. I think the author was trying to contrast the relativelty enlightened British colonialists with the dastardly, greedy Americans. But its more likely because there were less white settlers in Canada.
EDIT: In reply to Molegrips - yes a lot of the native tribes did change (eg the horses) and there was a lot of cultural sharing. Syphilis and lacrosse are the only two things that come to mind at the moment, but I'm sure there were more.
In the long run the North American indians were shafted not because they were peaceful eco friends of the earth (they weren't) or because they had worse weapons (at the begining they didn't). Its just there were less indians than white men.
But its more likely because there were less white settlers in Canada.
No. I actually did a lot of work on Native history during my first undergraduate degree, and (as you can imagine) grew up with a great deal of awareness of the it. The Canadians were not perfect (not by any means! There are some examples of real horrors perpetrated against the Natives), but through the system of treaties first implemented under Queen Victoria, were a damn sight better than the Americans.
The institution of the North-West Mounted Police (what became the Royal Canadian Mounted Police) was precisely a response to American violence against the Natives in the Canadian West.
The Canadians were not perfect (not by any means! There are some examples of real horrors perpetrated against the Natives), but through the system of treaties first implemented under Queen Victoria, were a damn sight better than the Americans.
That's what the gist of the book was. There was a sort of argument that the Candians under Victora were morally superior to their neigbours in America. But I wonder how long these Canadian treaties would have been honored had there been more Canadian settlers and so more pressure to occupy native land. Might be a phd thesis in that.
In reply to Molegrips - yes a lot of the native tribes did change (eg the horses) and there was a lot of cultural sharing. Syphilis and lacrosse are the only two things that come to mind at the moment, but I'm sure there were more
The popularised ideas of native Americans come from the 19th century, where the frontier was the plains, so plains Indians are what we think of. Across most of the country though they were settled farmers. Read up on the Five Civilised Tribes, they were the well developed societies occuping places like New York and Pennsylvania that the early colonists and pilgrims encountered. Their legal systems heavily inspired the US Constitution, a fact that was played down later as the natives became enemies.
There wasn't a lot of aggro between them and the Europeans originally; smallpox did for most of them entirely by accident.
they were the well developed societies occuping places like New York and Pennsylvania that the early colonists and pilgrims encountered.
The Iroquois Confederacy is what you are referring to, I think. The whole tradition of the longhouse as a place of legislature and justice was a feature of their society.
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Yeah you are right - the five civilized tribes were from the South East, got mixed up. Iroquois were known as the "Five Nations" apparently which is perhaps where I got mixed up.
As an expat canuck living in the UK, I remember clearly when I went back to the homeland after living in the "Old World" for a while.
I flew into Vancouver and was greeted by a lovely Haida sculpture (many peoples, like the different carvers of the NW natives - e.g Haida, Tsimshian etc. - and jewellers/painters of certain southwest peoples - e.g. Navajo, hopi etc. do well off their artworks and craft).
Upon going into a poorer part of Vancouver (Gastown), I was met with many homeless people, often of Native descent. A familiar situation to what you'd see in many downtown Canadian city centres.
Not having developed enzymes to process alcohol in the same way Europeans had meant that it has left a brutal legacy in decimating many communities. I helped a brother of mine a couple of times volunteering in a downtown Toronto soup kitchen in high school where he was a permanent fixture - many tragic tales.
You don't have to look very far to see the modern effects.
More recently, reports were released of the Canadian government's use of Native peoples for medical tesing in the 40's and 50's:
[url= http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/aboriginal-children-used-in-medical-tests-commissioner-says-1.1318150 ]Canadian Government - many skeletons in the closet.[/url]
Had the Europeans set up shop next door and been sympathetic, then I'm sure there would have been a lot of cultural sharing going on.
I thought that was the point I was making.
Have I read up much ? Well not particularly but possibly enough for me to have the opinion that being a hunter-gather probably isn't a whole bundle of fun compared to more modern alternatives.
Museum of Native American history in DC is superb and heartbreaking
If you get to DC this is the one to see
Followed by the Korean War memorial (do this one in the rain or dusk....)
Then the aerospace museum
possibly enough for me to have the opinion that being a hunter-gather probably isn't a whole bundle of fun compared to more modern alternatives
Hmm, you'd be surprised. Most of them weren't hunter gatherers, for starters.
Most of them weren't hunter gatherers, for starters.
Well if most of them were farmers it does indeed surprise me. I was aware that many Native American societies further south were farmers but I had always understood that in North America most were hunter-gatherers.
Presumably you only discovered this snippet of information in the last 4 hours as earlier you claimed that they had "a stone-age culture"
molgrips - MemberWhat interests me is that it was effectively a stone-age culture when the Europeans arrived. So those early explorers were effectively time travellers.
Posted 4 hours ago # Report-Post
The culture in the Stone Age period was hunter-gatherer.
EDIT : I stand corrected. I've just checked and although Stone Age culture started over 3 million years ago it would appear that some farming had already started in the final period. I would be surprised if farming superseded the need for hunting-gathering completely though.
SaxonRider - Member
So, did you play 'cowboys and indians' as a kid? Did you learn anything about the various tribes growing up? Is the subject something of anything more than a passing interest to you?
Yes, we did play 'cowboys and Indians'.
Yes, we learned they are nearly extinct due to "invasion" just like the aborigines being either breed out or ethnically cleansed ...
The modern twist of the North American Indians is that they are now all casino owners and rich beyond their means ... 😯
The culture in the Stone Age period was hunter-gatherer.
Well, I said stone age, because they didn't have metal tools. Of course that's not saying that their culture was at the exact same devleopmental stage as European culture was when they had stone tools. There's no reason to think that they would go through identical developmental steps in the same order. They had another another 5,000 years to develop after the European stone age, even though they did it without metal. Nit picking tho innit.
I used to be very interested- I studied the history of the American West for O level history at school (O levels is what we had before GCSEs- before you lived over here!). I'm aware that history lessons aimed at 15 year olds will be over-simplified, but from what I learned, the native Americans were treated very badly.
Well, I said stone age, because they didn't have metal tools.
But they did extract and extensively use metals including gold, silver, copper, bronze, etc. Did people during what is commonly defined as the Stone Age extract and extensively use metals ? I didn't think they did.
Did people during what is commonly defined as the Stone Age extract and extensively use metals ? I didn't think they did.
Well, I'm not a historian, [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallurgy_in_pre-Columbian_America ]fill your boots[/url] 🙂
Apparently there was copper and some iron in the north east.
Well, I'm not a historian, fill your boots
Yes I was aware of Native American skills in metalwork, what with the fabled city of El Dorado and all that. I was asking if people during what is commonly defined as the 'Stone Age' extracted and extensively used metals as I didn't think they did.
I was under the impression that the stone age ended with metals useful for making sharp edged tools, like bronze; gold and the like don't count.
Bit off topic now though.
Otzi the iceman had a copper axe, pretty daft material for a sharp edged tool eh ?
I've had a long-time interest in First Nations art and storytelling, in particular the art of the Pacific North-west, The Tlingit, Haida, and Kwakiutl tribes in particular. I've been following a Fb page of clothing designs which are based on Haida art, really nice dramatic designs too.
I have a tattoo of Kokopeli, the Anasazi jester spirit, riding a mountain bike as well. 😀
The USA is more famous for trying to destroy the First Nations, but Canada gave it a good go until 1996 at least:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Indian_residential_school_system