[Closed] New 4x4 - Discovery 3 or Defender 110 County.

Neither...go Japanese

Definitely not Japanese!! Ive got a TD5 90 defender - All the claims about the electrics and ECU being fallible to faults etc, have been proven to be completely unfounded. The Defender will be easier to work on yourself and relatively free of complicated systems such as the air suspension found on the Discovery. Motorway cruising in the defender might not be as comfortable as the discovery though!?

If it were me, and I was ferrying kids around etc, I'd probably go for the Disco. BUT, I'd be always wondering how good the defender would have been.

Sorry - not much help

I'm surprised you have to think about it. One almost passes for a car. One almost passes for a tractor. What do you need? A car or a tractor?

110 is a pig on the road as the Elephant said above.

5thElefant - Member

I'm surprised you have to think about it. One almost passes for a car. One almost passes for a tractor. What do you need? A car or a tractor?

As I said I have a Discovery but fancy a little bit extra load space and the extra seats. I also do a small amount of off-roading which the Disco is perfectly capable of but thinking of something a little more rugged!

Having had years of Land Rover work-based motoring, buy something else. Then again, I guess you are a rabid believer so won't even try something else.

Other manufacturers have taken their vehicles into the 21st Century you know. They have ride comfort and handling and proper seats and everything.

Pigface - Member

110 is a pig on the road as the Elephant said above.

As 99% of my miles are on the road it sounds like the Discovery will be my best option. It is the HSE version and auto so sounds like I will be turning into an old man!

Not much you can do about extra seats but there's a wealth of goodies you can upgrade a disco with. I still think the starting point is whether you need a car or a tractor. A tractor is a lot of fun 1% of the time.

EDIT - posted before I saw you last response!

As 99% of my miles are on the road it sounds like the Discovery will be my best option. It is the HSE version and auto so sounds like I will be turning into an old man!

Sounds like you don't even need a disco then- why not get a people carrier or something? Or if you really must have an off roader get an old td90 as well?

Elephant from the cliamtic change thread:

[i]Ironically I'm already quite green and within 2 years will be greener than a tree-hugging lesbian tofu muncher. Ironic as I'm not green and couldn't give a shit about climate change, but peak oil... that's a different matter. I am and will change my behaviour for that. [/i]

I take it changing your behaviour does not extend to rejecting the monster truck as a means of transpot Elephant. Just how many litres of fuel do you consume per year? (in addition to the 10 000+ litres it cost to build it).

I work from home numbnuts. My main runaround is LPG'd. I'm greener than most wannabe eco-warriors and I'm not even pale green. If it wasn't for mountainbiking I'd be a virtual hippy.

Other manufacturers have taken their vehicles into the 21st Century you know. They have ride comfort and handling and proper seats and everything.

The other day I pulled up alongside a year or two old jap 4*4 and was amused to notice the rear drum brakes and leaf springs. Now theres progress...

To the OP, is your disco MPi or V8? And are you looking at a series 2 (eg TD5) disco?

Edukator,

It's the planet-killing-4x4-thing again. I've got a "monster 4x4" which I need to tow the caravan in which I live. Living in a small space means less resources to build it, less to heat it, less to clean it, repair it and replace it eventually. I do not fly, I rarely eat meat, I source food locally where possible, recycle as much as possible, ride to work, buy secondhand, I don't throw things away because they are last year's fashion or the wrong colour.

You can't judge someone's "green-ness" by their car choice alone.

What does "numbnuts" mean please? LPG is a fossil fuel and included in the peak oil headache.

What does "numbnuts" mean please? LPG is a fossil fuel and included in the peak oil headache.

The other day I pulled up alongside a year or two old jap 4*4 and was amused to notice the rear drum brakes and leaf springs. Now theres progress...

However, the engine and drivetrain will get beyond the next 12 months - as opposed to other brands mentioned around these parts. Electrics too I'd guess.

Ah, the great peak oil debate... or headache. Why headache? Is that because neither side listens to each other? From an economics point of view, the proportion of the total endowment (however you wish to estimate it) that has been consumed is pretty irrelevant.

Elephant makes the is the link between scarcity and price, such that as crude supplies become increasingly expensive to lift, the retail price will rise. If he/she chooses to buy a car that is less full efficient, thereby increasing running costs then that it is matter of personal choice.

It would be fair to say that using petroleum to power vehicles (and generate electricity) is about the worst use for it, but peak oil is a poorly formed debate that is unlikely to change our behaviour; we will follow price signals.

we will follow price signals.

There was a suggestion that running two vehicles instead of one versatile 4x4 was a solution. It won't be if your mileage is low. The extra cost of keeping 2 vehicles outweighs this.

I avoid this dilemma by have two 4x4s. I have a compelling argument for why that's green too 😀 (maybe later for that one).

Ah, I see numbnuts is an insult. Could you point out where I have betrayed this lack of intelligence.

If 60 years of proven reserves is nowhere in sight you are clearly short sighted. It's strikingly similar to oil but a little longer than oil which is not surprising given that the two often come out of the same holes. It is no different in that LPG is a fossil fuel resource that will run out at about the point the planet is greenhoused into a climate that will be most disagreeable for those that survive.

Edukator, you make some valid points but some unsubscribed claims. However this thread is to help a chap decide on which vehicle he should purchase...If you want to hijack the thread or talk about peak oil etc why not start your own thread? 🙄

That's why I asked Elephant how much fuel he uses Karinofnine. Clearly owning a 4x4 only costs the emmissions associated with making it, how much it is used is the other part of the equation. If the LPG option/conversion was worthwhile he probably uses a lot of fuel or the investment in a cheap but equally polluting (in terms of CO2) fuel would not have been worthwhile.

Keep the Disco for fun (and towing), and buy an MPV for space?

Otherwise get the latest Disco, 7 seats and auto in HSE.

An on topic post then jezjeti:

Do you need such a heavy, cumbersome and polluting vehicle? Is there no other vehicle that would meet your requirements that would have less environmental impact and make less of an I-am-an-eco-terrorist-roadhog statement? The money saved in initial outlay and running costs could be put towards improving other aspects of your life (and the quality of life of your nearest and dearest if you have any).

kenneththecurtain - Member
To the OP, is your disco MPi or V8? And are you looking at a series 2 (eg TD5) disco?

My Disco is a V8 with an LPG conversion. I have had a TD5 before but had problems with the ACE and clutch, my mate has one and has had oil in the wiring loom and also needed to change the clutch and gearbox. Hence I am looking at the series 3 as I hope the engine is better than the TD5.

Edukator - I don't need a

heavy, cumbersome and polluting vehicle

I-am-an-eco-terrorist-roadhog statement

Some people need a 4x4 in as they use the off-road abilities of the vehicle on a regular basis and using a normal vehicel would occasion them considerable inconvenience. Those that don't I class as fashion victims and place squarely in the eco-terrorist category. Sharing the road and often the pavement with these beasts I have no hesitation in staitng that a higher than normal proportion of their owners are roadhogs.

So shakey, you don't need it and are an eco-terrorist. Are you also a roadhog that bullies other road users and uses the off-road ability exculusively to park on pavemnets?

Edukator - I do a fair amount of towing and that is the reason I own one.
I don't do a great deal of off-roading but like being able to do when needed. I don't bully other road users although you are less likely to get into a situation when driving one and I don't park on pavements though why owning a 4x4 means you are more likely to is beyond me!

[i]The other day I pulled up alongside a year or two old jap 4*4 and was amused to notice the rear drum brakes and leaf springs. Now theres progress...[/i]

that'll be because they work

I think you will find a great many other vehicles make better tow cars. The braking capacity of 4x4s is dire (compare your Disco with any saloon car of comparable habitability). The stability of 4x4s is often poor and there is more chance the caravan will flip a 4x4 particularly in windy conditions. A length of cable and a fence wire tensioning device will get you out of a waterlogged field better than a 4x4.

Towing is usaully only a very small part of total mileage, you may find keeping your current Disco for holiday use and buying a very small car in which to do most of your miles a cheaper, less polluting and more agreeable option. One advantage of a typical 4x4 is that it will last beyond the typical 8 year breaking period especially if mileage is reduced.

People with 4x4s park on pavements because they can. Mounting a high kerb with a normal car will result in tyre damage, body damage or a smashed sump. Have you not noticed the 4x4s on the pavement, especially near schools driven my mothers dropping off kids?

Defenders are excellent, but for comfort and motorway miles, the Discovery would be far better.

Jings guys, the guy wants some advice on his new wheels - he clearly doesn't care if you don't like 4*4s.

Have a scout about on landrovernet.com, you can get a good idea of what goes wrong with different models by having a poke about.

Also don't underestimate a Freelander; my wife has an oldstyle high-spec TD auto 5 door. It will tow her 'box and 2 horses out of most quagmires plus take 3 bikes and 3 people inside (or 1 inside and 3 outside plus 4 people). Or other combinations, and the luggage space isn't bad once you realise its tall inside.

So far done 50k and it does 30+mpg, irrelevent of how/where you drive.

Its a tough call, the Disco will be a much more comfortable daily drive but will be more difficult/complicated to repair. The Defender will go on forever, has more basic mechanicals and might hold its value better too. I had a Hilux for 4 or 5 years and whilst you get used to driving an "agricultural vehicle" its noticeably more relaxing driving a decent 4x4 jeep.

EDIT - I had a Freelander when they first came out. It had the Rover 1.8 petrol engine in it and it blew a head gasket. Be careful what engine you get in a Freelander, otherwise they are good cars.

As a Land Rover owner in the past ,I am now the owner of a Mitsubishi Shogun lwb 3.2did , ultra reliable and a great motor , if i had to choose between the Disco or the 110 it would be the Disco , the Defenders are very basic but awesome off road , If I'd of had the money I'd of gone for a Toyota Land Cruiser there the ultimate.

Yeah - Landcruiser would be my first choice, drove one all over Amazonia many years ago and kind of fell in love with them! I am also a big fan of the Nissan Patrol.

If you must go Landrover then a Disco is the best choice I would think (assuming the Freelander doesn't meet your requirements, which would surprise me). Currently I kick about in a Suzuki Grand Vitara which is actually pretty decent on the road, and surprisingly good off it (I often drive off road for work, hence the 4x4, though I am not needing it as much these days so keep thinking a van may be a better bet... and I am an eco-hippy-treehugging-warrior!).

Never seen the need for a 4x4 for towing though, I would have thought that many, many cars would be able to do the job as well for less money and with less stigma attached 😉

edukator what car do you drive?

LPG has it's own peak which is unrelated to oil and is nowhere in sight. Look it up if you don't believe me.

Realy are you sure?

Google GTL (gas to liqid), and CTL (coal to liquid), once oil's run out or at least uneconomic to exctract I'd be expecting gas and coal to shoot up in value at just the same rate, potentialy faster as it's easier to process some gases into petrol than it is with oil!

n.b.

70% of all series/defenders ever built are currently still on the road, no bad for something nearly 50 years old!

I linke Landrovers - have owned and driven several but i wouldnt get a 110 county unless you live ona farm in the middle of nowehere and really need the off road capability. They are good off road will last forever(ish) but they are not very comfortable and designed to do serious hard work. A friend of a friend who had moved out to the sticks - decided he needed one and went to the dealers and bought a brand new one with lots of toys, proud has anything that he would now "fit in". Anyway several weeks past and he returns to the dealer and says the door trim needs replacing because there is a consistenet leak above the front passenger door - dealer looks him the eye shrugs and said "sorry, they all do that, there's nothing we can do.!"

I'd go the disco!

Had various 4x4's Jeep, Mitsubishi, Vauxhall(?), and of course land Rovers. Disco is more capable of road than a standard Defender (yes that is true), having used both for a while on and off road then for me it would be the Disco. Thats the Disco 3 and 4 not the 2. The lattest Defender is a million times better than the old one but it's still cramped and slow, it also has no nearly as much room as a Dico.

having back from where my parents live in the middle of nowhere, ice, snow mud and tractors all over the place. They have a Ford Focus and a X5. I can now see my desire to buy a 4x4 is daft. No need down south. I would get a XC70 or something for limited amount of driving in the hills, alps and mountains.

Oil peak, gas peak. You all make me laugh, they are all fossil fuels and will one day run out. There are people with limited alternatives but honestly LPG is a stop gap, 60 years is not that far away.

To follow on from thisisnotaspoon -
70% of all land rovers are still on the road. Surely this offsets the carbon they have produced during their lifetime against the expenditure involved in making it. A longer than shelf life than the vast majority of all cars says a lot in my eyes.

Going back to the original topic...

The Tdv6 disco is by far going to be the more quieter, refined, smoother, better handling machine. I think its a great car, but I dont really feel I fit in it. I'm 6'1" and even with the seat at the lowest position, I couldn't see the tops of the dials, silly, but it bugged me. I also wasn't the biggest fan of the centre console being so vertical, nor of the rear seats which seemed very bench like and basic. Inside, i thought a lot of the cupholders and dookits would simply be dirt and mess magnets too. All round visibility towards the rear I thought was poor... difficult to see out of. Lastly, dont expect super performance out of hte diesel. I found it was great upto 30mph, but at 40 to 50, it just lacked a bit of the guts for overtaking safely. Dont get me wrong it'll do motorway speeds no problem, just that the acceleration at low speeds I found wasn't there further up the gears ... yet it felt like it should have been.

The 110, I like em, but at 2004, you'd be looking at the older style dash, and while its better than the early ones, its not a patch on the current style, and looks really really dated now. A 110 would be a smoother ride than you think, it'll also handle better than you think. OK, they lean, but once they've leaned they stick to the road quite well. My 90 was stable in corners ... more so than my old Mk2 RR. But, ul;timately, they are very basic, and you need to be prepared for the noise and rattles which all 110's have.

I thought about the Disco, but ended up with an LPG'd Mk3 RR

[IMG] [/IMG]

I felt that for the money, I was getting a nicer car all round. ( maybe worth looking into ... there are plenty of RR's around )

Reliability : With all of them, there will be things which fail ... its an LR, its part of the brand, but nowadays parts for even the newer models are easy to come by and not that expensive.

70% of all series/defenders ever built are currently still on the road, no bad for something nearly 50 years old!

Over 60 years old now [1948]. My 1955 Series 1 is still up and running 🙂

a 2004 110 would have the new style dash.

As said previously, a Disco would be much more comfortable, but a Defender will last longer, and parts are generally very cheap ( £12 for a shock absorber, the same for a headlight ).

As for the oil in the injector loom problem on the TD5 engine - this occurred only on those made in the first couple of years of production, and costs £30 to fix ( plus an hour of labour if you don't want to do it yourself ). Other than that, the engines have proved themselves very reliable.

The LRO.com forum is a good place to ask any specific questions you might have regarding Landies.

We tow a fairly big caravan (1500kg), currently with an old TDC1 Mondeo that does a good enough job, but planning on swapping our Verso next year. Thinking of a Galaxy/Alhambra/Sharan as they are reputed to be good tow cars...quite heavy but should still hit 40mpg. Thought of going the 4x4 route but cant help but think its a trade off for the other 98% of our annual mileage. The odd time we might get stuck there's generally someone with a 4x4 willing to pull it out for us anyway.
My brothers jap 4x4 got stuck on a wet campsite earlier this year, & a chap in an Audi A6 pulled him out...!!!

70% of all series/defenders ever built are currently still on the road, no bad for something nearly 50 years old!

Yeah, but I'd bet that the vast majority of the SI -SIII's have bugger all original parts left, everything having broken or rusted away, or been bent and dented and replaced.
I'd just about agree with the carbon footprint thing if they were still completely original.

You'd have to weigh up the cost (in terms of CO2 exenditure) of using new parts (body panels, mechanical parts) against the CO2 cost of producing a new car, and the cost associated with scrapping the car being replaced. My money still lies with the Land Rover. But I am biased. Very biased.

vinnyeh - the fact that they are put together by blokes wielding spanners and hammers means that nearly everything is replaceable on them, and that is the big reason that they continue in service and that means that you are not scrapping a vehicle and having to build a replacement - which is good for the environment.

In contrast, if you look at the S1 Discoveries or other modern vehicles the bodies have rotted and the engines and transmission are often still usable but having a bodyshell means that they are beyond economic repair and get scrapped. Similar issues with a Series Landy or Defender would mean the owner having to replace some relatively cheap panels.

My choice would be the Discovery, having owned S11/S111/110 county 300tdi/discoveryS11 V8 on LPG my current motor .

Once had eco warrior at work slap label on under my wipers anti 4x4 literature , but he wud not own up to it but obvious who the culpritt was.
Had he took time to open his narrow eyes he would have observed the gas tank, and if he had the nounce to know where i live and all i do wud know that i use it to its full capabilitys for work and leisure and it is not a school run 4x4.
So when tackled he cud only crawl back in his corner and when caught using the works minibus for personel use as he couldn't get paving slabs home on his bike and was too tight to pay delivery charge i had the last laugh . Mr Green when it suits I don't need a car brigade!

And just for those who say use public transport, tried that not enough buses in rural wales, wrong times if you work anything other than 9-5
and if you ask to use the shiny unused bike rack attached to the buses anyone wud think you were an alien talking another language.

If you fancy a Laugh try it ARRIVA BUSES.ABERYSTWYTH TO CARDIGAN/CARMATHAN ROUTES. 👿

Fossil fuels will run out, fact. Don't worry about it. They will then plough resources into developing alternatives. Its really not an issue, just an adaptation. What car you drive really bears no effect on climate change in the grand scheme of things (which really is a big con anyway).

On topic - i'd go for a Volvo XC90

Cranberry -

As for the oil in the injector loom problem on the TD5 engine - this occurred only on those made in the first couple of years of production, and costs £30 to fix ( plus an hour of labour if you don't want to do it yourself ). Other than that, the engines have proved themselves very reliable.

This happened on a mates 2004 TD5 and he needed a new loom!

I still cannot decide and will test drive the 110 this weekend to see if I can cope with the reduced comfort/increased noise!

Shakey - I was wrong. It seems that it can occur in 2003/2004 TD5 engines.

http://www.lro.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14609&highlight=oil+loom

Still strange that he needed a new loom - generally you replace the injector harness and that's it.

I bought a 2001 110 CSW, I didn't notice at the time but it had the injector loom problem. I only realised when the I opened the drivers seat cubby box and it was full of oil which had tracked back through the loom and came out at the plug for the ECU. I had the injector loom replaced and the new seals where the loom connected to the injectors. I ran it for quite a while cleaning the ECU plug of oil as it slowly worked its way out of the loom. Luckily he ECU was fine.

Back to the original post, I've always had Landys: Series Ones, Lightweights, 101, various trials motors, Defenders and a Discovery. I decided that I couldn't justify running a Defender as an everyday commuter. Plus I fancied something more comfortable and economical for everyday use. I bought an estate car for daily use and I'm building a '48 series 1 for the weekend so I can still get my fix! Best of both worlds.

Daniel - Series 1 sounds good! Any pics?!

Is it me, or is the 'standard' diesel Disco 2 really short on grunt at low revs?

I had a lift in a friends, its got an auto box and I honestly thought it was broken or was stuck in Sport mode or something. It revved its nuts off the whole time despite being driven relatively gently, even at cruising speed on single carriageway it wouldn't drop into top.

Then I drove a manual version whilst taking my trailer test. I was only towing an empty box trailer, and to be honest I don't think it would've been much different solo, but I kept finding myself changing up, and then 30 seconds later, having to change down again as I was going flat out and slowing down! This is in comparison to an old Citroen ZX deisel, and a Mondeo TDCi, which could both chug around happily at 35mph in 5th if you felt like it.

Thankfully my later lessons and test were in a Mitsubushi Pajero which was much more flexible, but even my 2.3L van with a 2.8t trailer can chug along perfectly happily at 'normal' revs.

[i]70% of all land rovers are still on the road[/i]

and the other 30% made it home...

(sorry to 'bastardise' the Harley joke)

if you want comfort go for the disco , if you want somthink that will go anywere , that you can sling some tools in the back , a 110 is for you , as for the looms , replacement is normaly all you need to do , we normally flush out the large red ecu conector to clear out the oil , sometimes it can get into the ecu its self , then you need a new ecu , but thats only in extree cases mate.i have a disco 2 and a 1971 r/r classic and i use both of them. not at the sametime of course.

[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/11688538@N03/4169936862/in/photostream/ ]80 rolling chassis[/url]

Actually a '52 but building it with S3 running gear, but body etc..to look like a '48 - sage green, headlamps behind the grill etc...

will look like a bigger version of my sons toylander...
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/11688538@N03/4169176239/in/photostream/ ]toylander[/url]

Having fair to great experience of them and other Lr things, by the Disco. Much better on the road , and better off it unless you factor in body damage in which case nothing matches a Defender. Unless you get a recent defender you get the TD5 which has mixed and very polarised affections. I hate it as I find it doesn't pull low down like my 300 tdi did. Ford engine nicer as is 6 speed. Main gripe with defenders is the shite dash board on later ones. Plastic knobs for heater etc where the old levers were much better and they left more storage space etc. Get a Disco unless you want to carry firewood etc. Or do like me, run a Jimny as a car and an old 110 as a tractor

That looks lovely! I wish I had the space/time to refurb a Series 1.