[Closed] Multicultural Britain

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Think about your day to day life, you probably interact with Muslims, Hindus, Seikhs, Christians. All colours, countries and creeds. Totally multicultural and totally fine 99.9999% of the time.

There are a few fanatics out there whos opinions seem to be getting a surprisingly large amount of media time, ask yourself who might have a vested interest in causing division in the general populace.

If the UK is not multicultural, then is it monocultural? Which is that culture?

UKIP has done well in places that are predominantly white and have little or no immigration. The people who are scared of 'the other' are generally the people who've never met them.

There's a good Matthew Parris piece in the times today

[url= https://twitter.com/MitchBenn/status/470148713781137408/photo/1 ]Link to tweet/scan[/url]
[img] https://twitter.com/MitchBenn/status/470148713781137408/photo/1 [/img]

The UK tries to be multicultural, sometimes too hard.

Read some of Brian Barry's stuff on multiculturalism, very interesting. He often likes to point out the hypocrisy of some ethnic/religious minorities around the world, but it is surprising how firm some Nordic countries have been when "foreign/religious" beliefs contradict existing national law. They expect the "incomers" to adapt their faith/customs to meet the host countries legal requirements.

simons_nicolai-uk - Member

UKIP has done well in places that are predominantly white and have little or no immigration. The people who are scared of 'the other' are generally the people who've never met them.

Spot on, the level of insidious racism I encounter when we visit my wife's parents in Gloucestershire comes as quite a shock when you work in a city, yet 20 miles down the road in Bristol it's very relaxed & on the whole nobody cares where you are from, just what sort of human you are.

Well, there's always this thing about respecting a group's beliefs vs. obeying the laws of a civil society. It's just as much an issue for white, middle-class church-goers who dislike homosexuality, for example.

We have laws, in theory at least they are agreed on by everyone in the country. So everyone should obey those laws - apart from that anything goes. that's what multiculturalism should mean.

With regards to fear of the "other", Matthew Parris has it spot on. People are afraid of what they don't understand.

gobuchul - Member
Can a truly multicultural society ever exist?

Dunno, that depends on how tolerance your belief is towards others but my understanding is that the world is already multicultural anyway so why keep pushing on this multicultural thing?

There is no way this multicultural thing can be prevented or push back anymore unless you want some sort of zombie maggot wars.

Is trying to create one only helping the far right gain support?

IMO, No. They are born with the attitude of fearing others invading their space so whether there is an idea of creating a multicultural society or not they will find something to fight for. It's in the gene. You find this in every society regardless of the skin colour.

🙄

Can a truly multicultural society ever exist?

I'm a moral absolutist:

Universal suffrage, sexual, gender and racial equality, freedom from poverty and the right to work, the right to education, clean water, decent housing, control over contraception and abortion, freedom of association etc are all values that post war western democracies have strived to achieve.

They make life better for the majority of people - they give people the chance to participate fairly and equally in our society - we accept that they are 'good things'.

If people disagree with any of these things for whatever religious or cultural reasons, then I don't believe we should alter our aims and aspirations to accommodate them.

Rusty Spanner - Member
If people disagree with any of these things for whatever religious or cultural reasons, then I don't believe we should alter our aims and aspirations to accommodate them.

Nor do they towards yours hence the inevitable zombie maggot wars. 🙄

I'm a moral absolutist:

That is the problem => absolutism.

Nor do they towards yours hence the inevitable zombie maggot wars.

But I don't want us to go to war with other countries just because they have different aims and aspirations than I do.

That is the problem => absolutism.

Rusty Spanner - Member

Nor do they towards yours hence the inevitable zombie maggot wars.

But I don't want to go to war with other countries just because they have different aims and aspirations than I do.

Like you they might be absolutists but with opposing views/beliefs to yours so the only way to prevent zombie maggot wars is to tolerate each other beliefs by "give and take" or compromising own beliefs.

The question is who should compromise first? You or them?

You already have a door step example in NI (might not be a good example).

🙄

Rusty Spanner - Member
We're all absolutists to some degree.

I am not. My belief does not instruct me to be an absolutist. Never will and never can.

It's imposing those beliefs on countries who don't share them that creates the issues.

I think it's okay to say that, say, persecuting homosexuals is wrong - no matter where it happens.

The question is who should compromise first? You or them?

Well, that depends what the consequences of compromise are, doesn't it?

I'd personally be happy to fight for our democracy, if it was genuinely threatened.
But if, say, Sweden planned an invasion, I'd probably give them a hand. 🙂

I am not. My belief does not instruct me to be an absolutist. Never will and never can.

Then you Sir are the zombiest and most maggoty of all maggots. 😀
You don't believe any moral principles are worth defending?

bencooper - Member

I think it's okay to say that, say, persecuting homosexuals is wrong - no matter where it happens.

Damn right.
Doesn't mean I don't want to kill everyone who doesn't share my belief though.

Its pointless as at some point we all need to pick a side / be absolutist

the right to religious freedom [ to be rude to gays and ban then from your B & B] or the right to be free from persecution- pick one we cannot have both
the right to life or the right to determine what happens to your body - abortion - gain pick one we cannot have both

We cannot just go yeah whatever as rights and beliefs are often in conflict

Sometime you have to pick sides

Good point Junky but the right to religious freedom has absolutely cock all to do with the right to ban gay people from guesthouses. 🙂

Which is where the problem arises with religious fundamentalism of any stripe:
If you place the word of god above all else you replace your own reason with that of those who currently claim to espouse the beliefs of your particular deity or deities.

he right to religious freedom has absolutely cock all to do with the right to ban gay people from guesthouses

You said cock and gay...[s]runs of s****ing[/s] reports to PC thought police for minor transgression

the christians taken to court for this disagree with you

They are entitled to their opinion. 🙂
Which is all religious belief is - opinion.

Oh, and

Doesn't mean I don't want to kill everyone who doesn't share my belief though.

Just killing everyone is probably the safest move all round.

bencooper - Member

Just killing everyone is probably the safest move all round.

Not everyone please just the zombie maggots. 😆

According to the well adjusted, saint of a man that is Jim Davidson, Wolverhampton is where its at.
http://nativemonster.com/music/nightlife/comedy/interview-jim-davidson

When I'm running the planet (not long now comrades) the lot of you can forget your absolutist cultural and religious freedoms, and all do as you're bloody well told!

There... You've had fair warning!

Drive through Bradford and you will see it is in fact not multicultural, but multi segregated. Sadly its as clear as day where one culture starts and ends..

Not just Bradford. Oldham, Blackburn, Burnley, Rochdale, etc, etc...

All about as racially and culturally integrated as apartheid era Johannesburg. Separate communities where, despite being many generations in, virtually no integration whatsoever has taken place. Separate communities leading parallel lives.

I heard that story about the Roma parents who lodged some kind of case against their child being adopted by a gay couple. I wonder if Nigel Farrage had some kind of boiling pressure building up in his head as he tried to comprehend it and ended up exploding like a volcano!

It took well over a hundred years for the Irish immigrants that came over in the wake of the industrial revolution to be fully accepted and to integrate.
Sadly, anti Catholic prejudice is still rife amongst older people.

Eventually, people from different cultures and religions marry and have kids and things get better - that's how it's historically worked, even when religion and cultural prejudice have tried to stop it.

However, the bigger the cultural differences, the longer integration seems to take - let's hope the gap we have now isn't too great to overcome:
I got in a taxi driven by a young Asian lad in Burnley a few weeks ago - he said he didn't have any white friends and would be shunned by his peer group if he was to do so.
Coming from a racially and culturally mixed bit Manchester, I nearly wept. 😐

There has to be an effort on all sides - some cultures have chosen not to integrate - the Orthodox Jewish community in North Manchester springs to mind.
I don't know of any specific issues caused by lack of integration there, but it's a very small community in the grand scale of things.

Not just Bradford. Oldham, Blackburn, Burnley, Rochdale, etc, etc...

All about as racially and culturally integrated as apartheid era Johannesburg. Separate communities where, despite being many generations in, virtually no integration whatsoever has taken place. Separate communities leading parallel lives.

.....you haven't mentioned Batley and Dewsbury, and we haven't even started on the Midlands. Good post, Binners, I really wonder which perfect world some of the contributors on here actually inhabit.

I live in Cambridge, which is very multi-cultural and pretty harmonious. On my walk into town I pass a Mosque, a turkish coffer shop (full off Turks), a Chinese supermarket (serving the Chinese community), a Korean super market (serving the Korean community) etc. Everyone seems to get on fine, but then it's a prosperous town..

footflaps - Member

I live in Cambridge, which is very multi-cultural and pretty harmonious. On my walk into town I pass a Mosque, a turkish coffer shop (full off Turks), a Chinese supermarket (serving the Chinese community), a Korean super market (serving the Korean community) etc. Everyone seems to get on fine, but then it's a prosperous town..

Ya, but they don't like each other ... 😆

I live in Cambridge, which is very multi-cultural and pretty harmonious. On my walk into town I pass a Mosque, a turkish coffer shop (full off Turks), a Chinese supermarket (serving the Chinese community), a Korean super market (serving the Korean community) etc. Everyone seems to get on fine, but then it's a prosperous town..

I'm sure Cambridge is a lovely place to live, but if you walked around any of the above towns (especially after dark) I doubt you would have the same point of view about multiculturalism.

I agree the places are full of drunken white british yobs fulled by alcohol behaving terribly and its shames us all

I would happily walk any of them at night tbh but the only shit i would get would be from the locals as you would like to call them oldboy

Binners behave when did you last go to Blackburn ?
Seriously I bet you have not been since set end rave days and it wont be double figures this century
It has its issue but it is not as you describe

we haven't even started on the Midlands. Good post, Binners, I really wonder which perfect world some of the contributors on here actually inhabit.

I live in a 'multicultural' city in the Midlands. No, it's not necessarily a perfect world where every ethnic group is equally represented in every street, but so what? Not every street has the same mix of age groups, that doesn't mean there's a generational apartheid.

I work with a diverse group of people, there are no 'cultural' problems, just the couple of usual personality clashes. And if I go to one of the Asian supermarkets then, again, it's fine. If walked round some of the predominately non-white areas at night then there could be trouble, but that's because it's a sh*thole. There are other 'white' areas that are also sh*tholes, where I might also experience some trouble. But they're all sh*tholes because sh*ts are there, not because the sh*ts are one colour/culture or another.

if you walked around any of the above towns (especially after dark) I doubt you would have the same point of view about multiculturalism

There are arseholes everywhere. If you're trying to say that arsholery is related in some way to ethnic background, then surely that's racist?

If you wander around a rough white neighbourhood, and see bad behaviour, do you feel the same as if you do the same in an asian one?

Anyway to the OP - Britain is multicultural, of course. It's not 100% harmonious, but that's a different matter. Multicultural means that there are lots of cultures present. I ride around Cardiff and I see mosques, temples, churches, synagogues and various new agey type places of worship; I hear a variety of languages; and my close neighbours include Greek, Croatian, Chinese, Indian and Zimbabe. All getting on with life just the same as everyone else.

simons_nicolai-uk - Member
UKIP has done well in places that are predominantly white and have little or no immigration. The people who are scared of 'the other' are generally the people who've never met them.

Oh yes, such places with little or no immigration as such as Basildon, Southend and Harlow 😆

MrOvershoot - Member

Spot on, the level of insidious racism I encounter when we visit my wife's parents in Gloucestershire comes as quite a shock when you work in a city, yet 20 miles down the road in Bristol it's very relaxed & on the whole nobody cares where you are from, just what sort of human you are.

I don't think you can generalise a place like that. It just depends on the luck of where exactly you've been/who you've met in those places.

For example I lived in Bristol for 5 years and could give countless examples of open racism. In Easton a black man got on a bus started arguing with the (Sikh) driver, calling him something like a '****ing gay ****' then tried to punch him in the face. My father (white) also got racially abused by some asian lads after he refused to buy them cigarettes in Cotham. Never experienced anything like that anywhere else in the UK, and that includes the charming city of [s]Basra[/s] Basildon.

I'm sure Cambridge is a lovely place to live, but if you walked around any of the above towns (especially after dark) I doubt you would have the same point of view about multiculturalism.

I doubt it has anything to do with multiculturalism though. Thugs are still thugs, no matter what race / ethnicity....

I've worked in and around Burnley and Blackburn for years, mostly in rough-ish areas, and often in Asian areas. There are things that worry me but it's nowhere near as bad as some make out.

But if, say, Sweden planned an invasion, I'd probably give them a hand.

grum - Member

I've worked in and around Burnley and Blackburn for years, mostly in rough-ish areas, and often in Asian areas. There are things that worry me but it's nowhere near as bad as some make out.

I agree, idiots are idiots, irrespective of race.

But that's not what the op asked.

In Burnley, we have very, very defined and racially segregated areas.
Both sides are responsible - someone has to leave before someone moves in and new immigrants are understandably keen mix with those they feel understand them better and remind them of the place they grew up.

But many second and third generations appear to have become isolated - not helped by the racist, small minded attitudes espoused by some of the locals.

It IS a big problem and it's going to take a hell of a long time to sort out.
I'd start by having proportional quotas for all schools, from nursery onward.

I'd also ban all religious schools, gender segregation and creation based 'science' lessons, but that's another story.

Burnley is way worse than Blackburn though the later may be heading that way.
It is not just the immigrants who chose to live in those areas the whites [ for want of a better word] choose not to
My mate lived in a white area of blackburn that became asian. He loved it and stayed - despite being gay and living with his partner. no issue at all still. despite being one of only a handful of white faces and openly gay

He say you never ever get woken by drunks and crime is near zero

Junky - I'm actually in Blackburn at the moment. Next question....

Ain't like the warehouse party days though mate. Happy days 😀

[s]Good luck getting out alive I am praying for you :wink:[/s]

Picture of you holding todays paper by a recognisable land mark 😛

Junkyard - lazarus

Burnley is way worse than Blackburn though the later may be heading that way.

I don't know Blackburn.

There's nowhere I don't really feel safe in Burnley - not been here that long and ignorance is bliss, but I feel a lot safer here than I did in (racially mixed and well integrated) bits of Manchester.
It's just that the races don't seem to mix here.
I lived in Crumpsall for a while, Asian/Irish mixed area in Manchester - never, ever had an issue, very pleasant place.

Todmorden was a bit of an odd one - small Asian population but no racial issues at all, as far as I know.
Abid Hussain (think an Asian version of Arkwright from Open All Hours) was mayor a while back - can't remember anyone having anything but nice things to say about him.
And Tod locals are not noted for their tolerance. 🙂

Bails - worked in Brum for a while and loved it.
Found everyone friendly and willing to get on, great mix of people, lots happening, never had a seconds trouble.

Separate communities where, despite being many generations in, virtually no integration whatsoever has taken place. Separate communities leading parallel lives.

As an aside I vaguely recall that in singapore the housing commission (I think most citizens get housing through the state) operates a racial quota system so that no new buildings would take any particular racial identity. (I might have totally misunderstood as I was not a citizen and so didn't have any contact with the commission).

It IS a big problem and it's going to take a hell of a long time to sort out.

I'd start by having proportional quotas for all schools, from nursery onward.

I'd also ban all religious schools, gender segregation and creation based 'science' lessons, but that's another story.

+1

There's nowhere I don't really feel safe in Burnley - not been here that long and ignorance is bliss, but I feel a lot safer here than I did in (racially mixed and well integrated) bits of Manchester.

Don't you live in Cliviger though, which is very white (BNP territory?) but not really quite in Burnley? Some of the schools/youth centres I worked in had a mix - not sure how many friendships there were across the different groups though TBH.

I'd start by having proportional quotas for all schools, from nursery onward.

I'd also ban all religious schools, gender segregation and creation based 'science' lessons, but that's another story.

Isn't that the opposite of liberal multiculturalism?

Don't you live in Cliviger though, which is very white (BNP territory?) but not really quite in Burnley?

What's the racial mix of the area I live got to do with anything?
Seriously, why is that an issue?
You live in a town almost exclusively white.
How do you find it affects you?

And it's Tory, not BNP, which is bad enough.
Although the couple over the road do have a Union Flag in their garden. 😐

(I voted Green & Labour, btw!)

The bit I live in is ten minutes walk from Turf Moor and right next to what we've been told is a 'dodgy' estate.
Seems fine to me - much nicer than Beswick, Miles Platting, Dam Head, Langley, Newton Heath, bits of Collyhurst, Cheetham Hill etc etc....

Isn't that the opposite of liberal multiculturalism?

Mrs Binners did a lot of work in schools in the areas mentioned. They're almost entirely segregated. There are 'white' schools, and 'Asian' schools. Unfortunately Blair's academy programme (and it's appetite for Faith Schools) entrenched this, and Goves Free Schools programme will make it worse. So segregation becomes the norm at the very age where the opposite should be being taught.

Although the couple over the road do have a Union Flag in their garden.

Why is that a problem?

I thought there had a been an effort to claim the Union flag back from the right wing?

If you go to Scotland or Wales you see loads of national flags and it isn't a problem. Even the Cornish fly their flag!

... Has been partially successful

And when I was referring to walking round Burnley feeling safe, I meant ALL of Burnley, including the majority Asian areas, not just the bit I live in. 🙂

As I say, not been here long, but 99% of Burnley is ace.

gobuchul - Member

[b]
Although the couple over the road do have a Union Flag in their garden.[/b]

Why is that a problem?

Because, IME, a garden with a huuuge flagpole flying a Union Flag is often, but not exclusively a sign of small mindedness, rather than a statement of pride in our mixed racial identity.

Because, IME, a garden with a huuuge flagpole flying a Union Flag is often, but not exclusively a sign of small mindedness,

Rather small minded of you to make that assumption.

rather than a statement of pride in our mixed racial identity

I am not mixed race AFAIK, so how can I take pride in that identity?*

*I know there are no "pure" racial identities and we are all a bunch of mongrel's really.

I was referring to our identity as a nation.

If you can't take pride in the fact that we are a mostly harmonious nation of many races and cultures then you'd appear to be part of the problem rather than part of the solution.

TBH, I think the British press have a significant role in souring race relations in the UK. Some of the stuff that's written in the Mail / Express is outrageous. If you don't directly know anybody from a different racial background, your going to get your points of reference from nasty scumbags(sorry, editorial staff) who like to make out that everyone is against white middle Englanders.

I was referring to our identity as a nation.

If you can't take pride in the fact that we are a mostly harmonious nation of many races and cultures then you'd appear to be part of the problem rather than part of the solution.

Having a flagpole in a prominent place such as a front garden which is clearly visible from a public road and flying the union flag (although St George's is generally what I see) is clearly designed to be a statement and an invitation to others passing by to form opinions of the occupants.

The opinion I come to is that the occupants are small minded ****s. The fact that I might not have come to the "correct" opinion, as judged by the occupants, is of no significance to me.

Invite people to form an opinion ? .......accept that it might not be the one that you preferred.

*I know there are no "pure" racial identities and we are all a bunch of mongrel's really.

There are a multitude of people here in the UK, born in Africa, or born of African parents, who are very racially "pure". Indeed recent DNA research suggests that they are likely to be uniquely free of even neanderthal genes.

The fact that I might not have come to the "correct" opinion, as judged by the occupants, is of no significance to me.

It bloody well should be!

Why ?

You're saying you don't care what's actually true? You only care about your opinion?

You're saying you don't care what's actually true?

I'm saying that I don't care if I haven't come to the "correct" opinion as judged by the occupants.

If I put a "Vote Labour" poster in my window, or a poster saying "the Lord died on the cross for us sinners", or put a huge flagpole in my front garden and flew the hammer and sickle from it, I would clearly be making a statement and expect others to judge it.

There is little doubt that many would walk past and think "what a tosser". Should they be bothered that this wouldn't be my preferred opinion ?

What ernie says, all of it

I believe anyone who aspires to be intelligent should consider multiple possibilities, and not judge based on incomplete evidence.

If I saw a flagpole I'd think "that's a bit unusual in the UK, I wonder why they have that" and consider a few scenarios.

If I saw a flagpole I'd think "that's a bit unusual in the UK, I wonder why they have that" and consider a few scenarios.

😆

Another ernie+1.

People who don't like immigration IME are often rather confused in their thinking I find...
e.g. My Mum being a bit anti immigration in a chat we had recently, even after I pointed out my brother lives in Ireland and is therefore an immigrant and my Dad is 1/4 German and comes from immigrant stock (and I'm an 8th German). So she doesn't like immigrants but she's fine with her husband and sons...

Or the bloke at work who was triumphant when UKIP did well this week. He doesn't like immigrants but he works in the European HQ of a very well known financial services company and gets on perfectly well with his colleagues who are immigrants - sits next to a South African lady and a lad who's half Serbian... He's basically afraid of 'the other' but when they're real people who he knows, it's ok... 😯

Well Ernie, that's me well put down.

He's basically afraid of 'the other' but when they're real people who he knows, it's ok...

brooess - good post, millions of people up and down the country in similar situations no doubt, yet they believe the propoganda spurted out by Farage and his merry men. The last time that happened, we had this mess!

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what they do is they take the ones they know and - ask him I bet they say this as well - say they are not like all the rest they are different from them - ie like us

Its odd how resilient the attitude is to counter examples of the bigotry

if you really want i can give you examples of this /scholarly papers.

So, Americans flying the stars and stripes outside their homes are dickheads too then. At least we can agree on something.

Ernie have you taken down your red flag as well?

It would be a shame if "flying the flag" became it sole responsibility of our "representatives on the terraces." Having lived and worked in different countries in the world, I find our particular phobia about displaying our flag rather odd. Far better that the stigma (perceived or otherwise) be removed.

Indeed but how do you do it?

Ironically the only time it happens and people tend to not think negative things is when the world cup is on

representatives on the terraces."

As for stigma I would assume it was true that the majority of those who fly the flag are still right wing little englanders. It is getting better but it has some way to go and the stigma exists because it is/was true

So, Americans flying the stars and stripes outside their homes are dickheads too then.

(I would assume that anyone flying a UK flag outside their UK house was probably a bit of a bellend too.)

dont american dickheads fly the confederate flag ?

Is Britain a multicultural country?

I think our language gives that away. Much of our vocabulary comes from elsewhere. 🙂

We can oppose multiculturalism, but cultural osmosis will beat that barrier any day.

dont american dickheads fly the confederate flag ?

Only the ones who take exceptional pride in being dickheads.

🙂

Love conquers all, eventually.

It did in my family, most of my great grandparents were were from all over Europe.
Some of their kids married immigrants too.

As to the flag, Molgrips has a point.
In this case it could be that the occupants aren't racists at all.
They may have lost a child in the forces for instance.

Experience still points me to my first conclusion, but I might be wrong.

If I passed house in the UK flying the Union Jack, I'd assume they were BNP supporters etc...

I could be wrong, but I suspect 99% of the time I'd be right...

I live in China.
I have never lived in a Country that is so proud to be what they are.
If I hung my St.Georges outside, I'd probably be carted off to some jail for some time.
My daughter is 2 1/2 and she knows the Chinese National Anthem off by heart (from her Kindergarten)
Those with the flag outside of their house in the UK, for some reason or another, may feel that they are loosing their Nationality.

Last week, I was in a place in China, where there such a mix of Middle Eastern people, it was hard to believe that could live in such harmonious synchrony. Normally they would be fighting at each others throats, but here, they get along peacefully.
I tentatively asked why this could be, and the common reply was, you can do what you want, but you can't promote it.
It's not in your face, and that, maybe what some people are afraid of.